Zibenajad trade..looks bad

[Korpse]

It was an incredible trade for the Rangers, and in 1-2 years it will look even more amazing.

Brassard will probably end the season around 50 points, while Zibanejad will have around 70. Brass will slowly decline with his age, while Zibanejad is just entering his prime.

How you came to those numbers intrigues me.

Some Sens fan will think Ottawa made a good deal no matter what Zibanejad does.

If he becomes a two way 70 point c? Doesn't matter, Ottawa would have still won the trade to them.

"If"

Everyone is quick to rush to judgement based on a bunch of ifs. There's nothing wrong with having a patient approach to evaluating a trade.

 

[Machinehead]

What a dumb argument. You're using this years totals to justify zibanejad's position as a first line center while ignoring brassards numbers that position him as a first line center.

New york was widely considered better than ottawa. Then trade happens. Ottawa is now starting to get recognized as better than new york beating them head to head last year and being ahead so far in the standings. Interesting.

I'll take team success over individual fan-boyism.

By this logic, the Gretzky trade was great for Edmonton because they won another Cup and LA didn't.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

What?

I thought Brassard has done VERY WELL with Ottawa,

I even think Brassard could still be the number one center, if Duchene goes in a slump. Duchene is better but Brassard brings many intangibles to his game that could put him in that 1-C spot.

It's why ROR is sometimes slated as Buffalo's #1, and Eichel, #2.



Z has done pretty well in NYC, I always thought this was a good trade for both.

I don't see how it's bad in the least.

Boths teams are very happy.

I guess that's why it was bad? Because stupid HF logic doesn't know how to make sense of this outcome?

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

That pick is currently a reasonably valuable asset. what we turn that asset into has nothing to do with this trade. We traded for the 2018 second round pick, not for what the 2018 second round pick may become. In cases such as this you have to look at the value of the draft pick in a vacuum at the time the trade was made.

That being said, if current trajectories remain the same, that pick can be forfeited and I would still say we won this trade based on the age alone.

Basically you need to determine a winner, and despite that Ottawa got what they wanted, your team wins the trade because of reasons you decide matter?

I think both teams are happy.

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

Basically you need to determine a winner, and despite that Ottawa got what they wanted, your team wins the trade because of reasons you decide matter?

I think both teams are happy.

It has nothing to do with what I decide matters. it has to do with what any reasonable person decides matters.

Zib and Brassard are currently pretty damn close to each other right now a far as the caliber player they are. They both play the same position, and they have similar production.

If you had to choose one of them, wouldn't any reasonable person choose the player who is 6 years younger likely having more years ahead of him than the other player, AND a 2nd round draft pick?

 

[Agent Zub]

It's not even like Brassard is some defensive god. Zibanejad is just as good at that aspect.

 

[swiftwin]

Jesus, this is the Phaneuf trade all over again when Leafs fans kept trying to convince us we lost the trade.

Ottawa is better today because of this trade. Period. I'd do it again. Trying to project what happens 5-6 years from now is a hopeless exercise. Ottawa has Duchene anyways and a few top prospects who can make the team, like Brown. Ottawa is less than two million from the cap right now. Trying to keep Turris/Duchene and Zibanejad would have been difficult. Staggering it out where someone like Brown or Chalpik can come in a few years on and ELC or 2nd contract makes sense. Or none of that happens, and some random 6th round pick becomes our 2nd line center.

Abd there's a ton of other smaller reasons this trade works for Ottawa.

Just because you're incapable of seeing the trade from another team's perspective doesn't make it bad.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Player wasn't working out with team, gets traded and reaches potential.
News at 11.
Seriously, he may not be the player he's becoming if he stayed in Ottawa and I'm sure the Sens aren't too heartbroken after their ECF trip last year. It's possible for both teams to win as opposed to one team winning and the other losing.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

It has nothing to do with what I decide matters. it has to do with what any reasonable person decides matters.

Zib and Brassard are currently pretty damn close to each other right now a far as the caliber player they are. They both play the same position, and they have similar production.

If you had to choose one of them, wouldn't any reasonable person choose the player who is 6 years younger likely having more years ahead of him than the other player, AND a 2nd round draft pick?

brassard fits in better with the sens than zibby did. His presence helped the senators beat zibby and the rangers in the playoffs.

You're saying that given the present is compatible, which is arguable even in a vacuum, that that the future included makes it a win for the rangers. Which is ignoring all the other factors that went into the trade. Including what hPpens with the pic, and the fact that Ottawa has replacements waiting in the wings.

So yeah you're picking and choosing what matters in determining a winner. A determination that seems oddly important to you. When the fact remains that each team had specific needs which were met in the trade, and seem happy with the outcome.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Player wasn't working out with team, gets traded and reaches potential.
News at 11.
Seriously, he may not be the player he's becoming if he stayed in Ottawa and I'm sure the Sens aren't too heartbroken after their ECF trip last year. It's possible for both teams to win as opposed to one team winning and the other losing.

bingo.

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

brassard fits in better with the sens than zibby did. His presence helped the senators beat zibby and the rangers in the playoffs.

You're saying that given the present is compatible, which is arguable even in a vacuum, that that the future included makes it a win for the rangers. Which is ignoring all the other factors that went into the trade. Including what hPpens with the pic, and the fact that Ottawa has replacements waiting in the wings.

So yeah you're picking and choosing what matters in determining a winner. A determination that seems oddly important to you. When the fact remains that each team had specific needs which were met in the trade, and seem happy with the outcome.

for the record, Zibby was the much better player in the playoffs than Brassard was.

everything else is some ridiculous mental gymnastics because you don't want to admit that we got the better end of the deal.

both teams got players that immensely helped their respective teams. One of those teams got younger and gained a draft pick in the process. This is not that hard.

and another thing. If nobody gave a shit about who won trades, there wouldn't be a trade board with thousands upon thousands of pages of discussion.

I acknowledged that the Sens got a good deal. We just got a better one

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

for the record, Zibby was the much better player in the playoffs than Brassard was.

everything else is some ridiculous mental gymnastics because you don't want to admit that we got the better end of the deal.

both teams got players that immensely helped their respective teams. One of those teams got younger and gained a draft pick in the process. This is not that hard.

was he? Wasn't good enough.to help his team win the series.

Its not mental gymnastics, it was that one team wanted to improve now, and did, giving up assets they could afford.to give up to do since there was a surplus.

If a true winner is to be declared, it will be in several years when all the pieces involved, and pieces to come as a result of the trade settle in.

But if you need to feel that the rangers won, go for it I suppose. Just seems odd to me.

 

[Levitate]

In terms of hockey assets I'd say the Rangers got the better deal...younger player with potentially more upside and a 2nd round pick.

When taking into consideration cap and money, it makes more sense for the Senators and has worked out fine for them, so it's not really a deal that they lost in that sense, they got what they wanted and it helped them with flexibility in the long term and with actual money paid out (which is apparently important to their owner).

I'm more curious as to what happens in two years when Brassard and Duchene's contracts are up. Ottawa's given themselves a two year window it seems like and then it'll be interesting to see what happens. Do they have young center prospects ready to push and take over for those two? Karlsson's contract will be up as well and he'll command a bigger deal, where's Andersson's level of play going to be, who replaces him?

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

was he? Wasn't good enough.to help his team win the series.

Its not mental gymnastics, it was that one team wanted to improve now, and did, giving up assets they could afford.to give up to do since there was a surplus.

If a true winner is to be declared, it will be in several years when all the pieces involved, and pieces to come as a result of the trade settle in.

But if you need to feel that the rangers won, go for it I suppose. Just seems odd to me.

Thats a trash argument, and intellectually lazy. Be better than that.

Brass managed 1 point the entire series. He wasn't very good at all. If anything they won in spite of Brass

 

[Korpse]

I'm more curious as to what happens in two years when Brassard and Duchene's contracts are up. Ottawa's given themselves a two year window it seems like and then it'll be interesting to see what happens. Do they have young center prospects ready to push and take over for those two? Karlsson's contract will be up as well and he'll command a bigger deal, where's Andersson's level of play going to be, who replaces him?

I'm fairly comfortable in saying that Ottawa has every intention to re-sign Duchene, Dorion has already alluded to having a good relationship with his agent. As for Brassard, I said it the day the trade happened but I've always viewed him a stop gap. That summer they also drafted Logan Brown who is a highly skilled centre, with Colin White comping off a great draft+1 season. I don't see White as stepping in as a 2C anytime soon but Brown certainly has the skill set to and had a good training camp. Chalpik is another possibility, had a relatively disappointing draft+1 and management wasn't shy in telling him how they felt. He came back and had a great final season in junior and has looked good to start the season in the AHL, I've always thought he would convert to LW but watching him play C in the minors he is a solid option. There's also Pageau who ideally is a #3C but has shown an ability to rise to the occasion when needed, see post allstar 2015/2016, but I'd only view him a a short term option if the younger guys need an extra year or two, he shouldn't be the long term solution.

Thats the sort of context that is often left out when outsiders evaluate trades. In just a value sense sure you can argue that Ottawa lost the trade but teams don't make trades to get value for an asset, it's about making the team better. In the short term I think Ottawa is a better team whether or not this trade harms them in the future will be the deciding factor in regards to it being a bad trade for Ottawa.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Thats a trash argument, and intellectually lazy. Be better than that.

Brass managed 1 point the entire series. He wasn't very good at all. If anything they won in spite of Brass

they still won. It's even lazier to look at point totals to determine how well a player played.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

I'm fairly comfortable in saying that Ottawa has every intention to re-sign Duchene, Dorion has already alluded to having a good relationship with his agent. As for Brassard, I said it the day the trade happened but I've always viewed him a stop gap. That summer they also drafted Logan Brown who is a highly skilled centre, with Colin White comping off a great draft+1 season. I don't see White as stepping in as a 2C anytime soon but Brown certainly has the skill set to and had a good training camp. Chalpik is another possibility, had a relatively disappointing draft+1 and management wasn't shy in telling him how they felt. He came back and had a great final season in junior and has looked good to start the season in the AHL, I've always thought he would convert to LW but watching him play C in the minors he is a solid option. There's also Pageau who ideally is a #3C but has shown an ability to rise to the occasion when needed, see post allstar 2015/2016, but I'd only view him a a short term option if the younger guys need an extra year or two, he shouldn't be the long term solution.

Thats the sort of context that is often left out when outsiders evaluate trades. In just a value sense sure you can argue that Ottawa lost the trade but teams don't make trades to get value for an asset, it's about making the team better. In the short term I think Ottawa is a better team whether or not this trade harms them in the future will be the deciding factor in regards to it being a bad trade for Ottawa.

agreed.

 

[stempniaksen]

they still won. It's even lazier to look at point totals to determine how well a player played.

To be fair though, Zib was better than Brass in that Ranger series. On the other hand, the Senators probably (maybe?) don't get past the Bruins without Brassard playing like a man possessed, so it works both ways.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

To be fair though, Zib was better than Brass in that Ranger series. On the other hand, the Senators probably (maybe?) don't get past the Bruins without Brassard playing like a man possessed, so it works both ways.

true. Usually players have big rounds, and without superstars like alfredsson or Crosby up front that's what's needed.

I just like the trade for both teams. Kinda boggles my mind why some people need to declare a winner so shortly after a trade happens, especially when it seems to be working out for everyone.

 

[absolute garbage]

What I do know (that you don't) is that one problem for Zibanejad was that he never really meshed well with any one on the team. Don't get me wrong he did well despite that but with Brassard it's a much different situation. There's really no doubt in my mind that Ottawa is better in the short term with Brassard than Zibanejad, that doesn't mean NY is worse off because they are not. Sometimes its all about fit. From what I've seen of Zibanejad in NY is that he has looked meshed pretty well with Zucc and Buch, two skilled left handed shots. Outside of Hoffman Ottawa doesn't have a lot of skill among left handed wingers. Meanwhile Brassard ( a left handed shot) has looked great with two right handed shots in Ryan and Stone. Crazy.

It's not about "meshing". It's about taking his time developing into an impact player. Ottawa "gave up" on Zibanejad because he couldn't put it together fast enough for their liking. They probably had doubts if he was ever going to do that. They wanted a surefire top 6 player to the roster, and put that ahead of the possible upside that the younger guy had.

But that potential was then realized in NY. Zibanejad is a vastly superior player right now compared to what he ever was with Ottawa. It took him a while to get his skating, physique and mindset where it needs to. After that the talent has taken over. Good players happen to "mesh" with other players better than lesser players.

 

[Korpse]

It's not about "meshing". It's about taking his time developing into an impact player. Ottawa "gave up" on Zibanejad because he couldn't put it together fast enough for their liking. They probably had doubts if he was ever going to do that. They wanted a surefire top 6 player to the roster, and put that ahead of the possible upside that the younger guy had.

But that potential was then realized in NY. Zibanejad is a vastly superior player right now compared to what he ever was with Ottawa. It took him a while to get his skating, physique and mindset where it needs to. After that the talent has taken over. Good players happen to "mesh" with other players better than lesser players.

There's certainly a part of that has to do with fit, and Brassard has been a better fit than Zibanejad ever was and NY very well could be a better fit for Zibanejad than Ottawa was, for reasons I outlined in my previous post. Chemistry is an element of building a team that shouldn't be overlooked, you want to have players who make each other better. Despite being similar caliber players, they have very different styles. There's many elements to this trade, I'm not trying to say it's the only one but I thought it was important to demonstrating why I thought Ottawa has been better with Brassard rather than they would have been with Zibanejad.

 

[Levitate]

Personally I think Zibanejad is better than Brassard in many ways but I'd rather see an entire season of play like this before I get too crazy in my evaluation of him.

And yeah the trade ultimately seems to work for both teams. NY might get a #1 C they needed, Ottawa gets a good player that fits with the direction of their team and long term plans. I think the 2nd rounder is still a bit of a head scratcher because even at the time I wouldn't have considered Brassard that much more valuable.

But whatever, if fans of both teams are happy with the trade then let it be.

 

[gorangers0525]

“We beat your team in a playoff round, therefore we won the trade” is just classic HF boards comedy. Keep it coming.

 

[Korpse]

“We beat your team in a playoff round, therefore we won the trade” is just classic HF boards comedy. Keep it coming.

Right up there with “you didn’t beat us, we beat ourselves”

 

[playasRus]

The biggest problem in this thread is probably that some posters are trying to spin that Ottawa fans are refuting that Ottawa loss this trade by saying Brassard is currently better than Zibanejad which gets interpreted by Rangers fans as "New York loss the trade."

I think the trade is a win for NY no matter what. They got a younger equally if not more productive player AND a future asset.

That said, we can argue that Ottawa lost the trade but in no way is the trade bad. OP is out to lunch. Ottawa got an equally productive player that molds better with the make up of the team, so we gave up a budding (future star?) player for immediate success.
Ottawa gets immediate results, NY hopes to get future success at no risk by not giving up anything now and hoping Zibby breaks out even more.