Zibanejad versus Couturier

[flyershockey]

From NHL.Com
Boston Bruins center Patrice Bergeron has captured the Frank J. Selke Trophy in recognition of "the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game," as selected by the Professional Hockey Writers' Association.

From Wikipedia

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game. The winner is selected by a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association following the regular season.[1] It has been awarded 35 times to 23 different players since the 1977–78 NHL season. The current holder is Patrice Bergeron of the Boston Bruins.

Cool. Except for that's not what wins you the award anymore. It's become the biggest reputation trophy in all of sports, imo.

 

[Stizzle]

From NHL.Com
Boston Bruins center Patrice Bergeron has captured the Frank J. Selke Trophy in recognition of "the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game," as selected by the Professional Hockey Writers' Association.

From Wikipedia

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game. The winner is selected by a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association following the regular season.[1] It has been awarded 35 times to 23 different players since the 1977–78 NHL season. The current holder is Patrice Bergeron of the Boston Bruins.

Yes, we understand the literal meaning. Unfortunately, that's not how the voters cast there ballot. They don't spend hours crunching numbers like Appleyard to actually determine the best defensive forward. They are typically old school newspaper guys who just go by reputation. If they went by the literal definition there would be no logical defense for many of there votes.

 

[JD1]

Yes, we understand the literal meaning. Unfortunately, that's not how the voters cast there ballot. They don't spend hours crunching numbers like Appleyard to actually determine the best defensive forward. They are typically old school newspaper guys who just go by reputation. If they went by the literal definition there would be no logical defense for many of there votes.

So what.....they go by the eye test then?

 

[Appleyard]

Selke has become best two way forward, not defensive. If he scored more then he'd get more votes, his defense is already worthy.

Yep, also Couturier arguably played better overall this season than last I reckon, (definitely 5v5) but had far less votes.

Also in regards to his age, his top 10 finish in 2013-14 was only the 8th time in NHL history a player in his aged 21 season or younger came top 10 in Selke votes.

It is also true in regards to the Selke, since the lockout, while the description of the award has stayed the same the way it is voted for has not.

Draper, Madden, Graham, Meagher, Ramsay and Jarvis would not have won 'their' Selke's post-lockout, most would not have came top five. Heck, Guy Carbonneau and Jere Lehtinen would likely have one or two less Selkes as well.

I mean, since 2008 there have only been two guys in top 5 voting with below 50 points (one who had 49).

2/35 in a 7 year span had less than 50 points.

In the 7 years pre-lockout that figure was 17/35.

I mean, league scoring comes into it (Yearly average of 5.56 GPG from 08-09 to present vs 5.32 from 97-98 to lockout, so the last 7 years has had 4.5% more scoring than pre lockout) but not to that degree.

I mean, Daniel Winnik has only ever got Selke votes in one year, Boyd Gordon has never been top 10... and last year Crosby came ahead of Stepan and Little...

The way the Selke is voted for has got away from the literal definition of the word...

 

[Juicy Pop]

So what.....they go by the eye test then?

I don't know, go ahead and ask all of them.

That being said, I think it's rather unreasonable to believe that most voters pours over all the relevant data for each player and every award. It's a rather daunting amount of work.

 

[Juicy Pop]

Yep, also Couturier arguably played better overall this season than last I reckon, (definitely 5v5) but had far less votes.

Also in regards to his age, his top 10 finish in 2013-14 was only the 8th time in NHL history a player in his aged 21 season or younger came top 10 in Selke votes.

It is also true in regards to the Selke, since the lockout, while the description of the award has stayed the same the way it is voted for has not.

Draper, Madden, Graham, Meagher, Ramsay and Jarvis would not have won 'their' Selke's post-lockout, most would not have came top five. Heck, Guy Carbonneau and Jere Lehtinen would likely have one or two less Selkes as well.

I mean, since 2008 there have only been two guys in top 5 voting with below 50 points (one who had 49).

2/35 in a 7 year span had less than 50 points.

In the 7 years pre-lockout that figure was 17/35.

I mean, league scoring comes into it (Yearly average of 5.56 GPG from 08-09 to present vs 5.32 from 97-98 to lockout, so the last 7 years has had 4.5% more scoring than pre lockout) but not to that degree.

I mean, Daniel Winnik has only ever got Selke votes in one year, Boyd Gordon has never been top 10... and last year Crosby came ahead of Stepan and Little...

The way the Selke is voted for has got away from the literal definition of the word...

As I mentioned earlier, the last time someone came close to breaking the mold was Pahlsson in '06-07. He ended up with the most first place votes [24] and finished 15 points behind Brind'Amour in the voting despite tallying 68 fewer points. The post-lockout era has heavily scrutinized offensive attributes in the voting.

I doubt we'll ever see that again without a culture shift.

 

[JD1]

I don't know, go ahead and ask all of them.

That being said, I think it's rather unreasonable to believe that most voters pours over all the relevant data for each player and every award. It's a rather daunting amount of work.

Personally I think it is unreasonable to believe that most voters just flippantly decide who to vote for based on reputation. Pretty sure a lot of them take their privilege seriously. If they based their vote on reputation do you think a young kid would finish 9th in 2013-14? And I guess if that were to happen wouldn't that player have a reputation the following year and be more likely to get reputation votes?

 

[Juicy Pop]

Personally I think it is unreasonable to believe that most voters just flippantly decide who to vote for based on reputation. Pretty sure a lot of them take their privilege seriously. If they based their vote on reputation do you think a young kid would finish 9th in 2013-14? And I guess if that were to happen wouldn't that player have a reputation the following year and be more likely to get reputation votes?

It's a good thing that I didn't state that then.

Disbelieving that the majority did a thorough evaluation of the entire field does not imply that I thought they were 'flippant' in their decision-making.

 

[JD1]

It's a good thing that I didn't state that then.

Disbelieving that the majority did a thorough evaluation of the entire field does not imply that I thought they were 'flippant' in their decision-making.

So only a minority do a thorough job of evaluating the entire field? In light of him finishing t30 in selke voting even those in the minority that did a thorough evaluation must have decided that he was not vote worthy.

 

[Baby Ryan]

This thread has just turned downright embarrassing for Ottawa fans and Mika supporters. Just really low brow commenters who offer nothing.

I think that's a bit unfair for some of the other Sens posters such as Mickle for example.

Anyways, I find both to be strong players for their playstyles. Shutdown defensive center who has good potential for 50-60 points and a decent defensive power forward like center who also has good offensive potential.

On a team like Ottawa where we have a bit too many "defensively" minded centers down the pipes excluding Turris, I would personally would stick with Zib.

On a team like let's say Edmonton or New York Islanders, I would probably take Couts to play behind an offensive center stalwart.

Really depends on the team in my opinion.

In threads like these, I find it better to leave to the divisional fans to make their minds rather than the fans of those respected players. Potential for bias

 

[ps241]

Personally I think it is unreasonable to believe that most voters just flippantly decide who to vote for based on reputation. Pretty sure a lot of them take their privilege seriously. If they based their vote on reputation do you think a young kid would finish 9th in 2013-14? And I guess if that were to happen wouldn't that player have a reputation the following year and be more likely to get reputation votes?

Not sure I would go that far. On the H and L radio show on (TSN 1290) during the Ovi All Star PHWA voting scandal (making the 1st team for RW and the 2nd team LW ) one of the sport writers that hosts the show was interviewing either Dredger or Lebrun (I can't remember which) and the two of them were critical of their piers saying some take it seriously but there are too many that don't.


I think at a minimum they should make the voting transparent like they do in baseball I think it would lead to a bit more accountability.






.

 

[CanadianHockey]

I'd take Zibby, but it's close. Both good players.

 

[Appleyard]

Just look at some of the voting in the last 4 years:

2014-15:

Hudler had All-Star team votes at every position.
P. Kane had votes at LW.
Seguin had votes at RW.
Benn had votes at RW.
D. Sedin had votes at RW.

2013-14:

Skinner had votes at C.
Kane had votes at LW.

2012-13:

Ovechkin was 1st AS RW and 2nd AS LW. 45 voters did not know what position the Hart trophy winner played in that season.
Kane had votes at LW.
Voracek had votes at LW.
Giroux had votes at RW.

2011-12:

Giroux had 46 votes at RW... he had not played there in 2 1/2 years. He centered himself on the 3rd AS team!
Neal had 59 votes at LW.
Kovalchuk was 1st team AS at LW when he played RW.
Hossa had votes at LW.
Gaborik had votes at LW.
Kessel had votes at LW.
Hartnell had votes at RW.
Stamkos had votes at RW.
Sharp had votes at RW.
Parise had votes at RW.
Whitney had votes at RW.
Eberle had votes at LW.

I mean, there are consistently ~50 voters (out of ~150) who place players at incorrect positions on AS voting lists.

The PHWA do not help by not giving set positions to players, and I understand in the case of someone like Foligno last year why he would get votes at LW and RW, as he played a decent amount of time at both... but some of these are absolutely inexcusable.

So no, a decent proportion of voters seemingly don't take their privileged seriously... not enough to know what positions some of the top players in the league actually played in the previous year, or if they did not know spend a minute looking it up.

The voting should be open really...

 

[Tripod]

So only a minority do a thorough job of evaluating the entire field? In light of him finishing t30 in selke voting even those in the minority that did a thorough evaluation must have decided that he was not vote worthy.

So what do you think then?

Here are his top 5 matchups:

John Tavares: (46:14 TOI with, 0 points)
Ryan Johanson (37:06 TOI with, 1 point)
Nicklas Backstrom (35:17 TOI with, 1 point)
Alexander Ovechkin (34:13 TOI with, 1 point)
Sidney Crosby (30:28 TOI with, 1 point)

These are the guys he plays against, yet finished with a +4 on the season. And that is with a hurt Read and a Umberger as his wingers and a crappy defense behind him.Oh...and with with Zepp and Emery in goal for 31 games.

People can say that his offensive ceiling is unknown, but to question him defensively shows you don't watch hockey and choose to ignore defensive stats.

In fact...break those guys down even more. All play almost exactly 20 minutes a game. So Couturier:
Held a Tavares pointless in just over 3 games played
Held RJ, NB, Ovi to 1 point in almost 2 games played
Held Sid to 1 point in 1.5 games played.

So again, how do you think he did?

 

[Appleyard]

So what do you think then?

Here are his top 5 matchups:

John Tavares: (46:14 TOI with, 0 points)
Ryan Johanson (37:06 TOI with, 1 point)
Nicklas Backstrom (35:17 TOI with, 1 point)
Alexander Ovechkin (34:13 TOI with, 1 point)
Sidney Crosby (30:28 TOI with, 1 point)

These are the guys he plays against, yet finished with a +4 on the season. And that is with a hurt Read and a Umberger as his wingers and a crappy defense behind him.Oh...and with with Zepp and Emery in goal for 31 games.

People can say that his offensive ceiling is unknown, but to question him defensively shows you don't watch hockey and choose to ignore defensive stats.

If you look at his career stats vs the guys he has played more than 70 mins vs 5v5 in his career:

2011-15 (in brackets is the amount of GF/60 they get when not against Couturier in that timeframe, after that is the % of their normal GF/60 they have vs Couturier):

Tavares: 144:06 vs Couturier: 1.249 GF/60 (2.934 GF/60) 42.6% of normal production
Ovechkin: 104:13 vs Couturier: 1.151 GF/60 (2.391 GF/60) 48.1% of normal production
Crosby: 99:49 vs Couturier: 1.202 GF/60 (3.715 GF/60) 32.4% of normal production
Okposo: 98:40 vs Couturier: 1.824 GF/60 (2.791 GF/60) 65.4% of normal production
Backstrom: 87:40 vs Couturier: 2.053 GF/60 (2.399 GF/60) 85.6% of normal production
Kunitz: 85:44 vs Couturier: 0.700 GF/60 (3.429 GF/60) 20.4% of normal production
Malkin: 83:09 vs Couturier: 2.165 GF/60 (3.296 GF/60) 65.7% of normal production
Moulson: 81:45 vs Couturier: 0.734 GF/60 (2.529 GF/60) 29.0% of normal production
Neal: 71:56 vs Couturier: 0.834 GF/60 (3.354 GF/60) 24.9% of normal production

 

[JD1]

So what do you think then?

Here are his top 5 matchups:

John Tavares: (46:14 TOI with, 0 points)
Ryan Johanson (37:06 TOI with, 1 point)
Nicklas Backstrom (35:17 TOI with, 1 point)
Alexander Ovechkin (34:13 TOI with, 1 point)
Sidney Crosby (30:28 TOI with, 1 point)

These are the guys he plays against, yet finished with a +4 on the season. And that is with a hurt Read and a Umberger as his wingers and a crappy defense behind him.Oh...and with with Zepp and Emery in goal for 31 games.

People can say that his offensive ceiling is unknown, but to question him defensively shows you don't watch hockey and choose to ignore defensive stats.

In fact...break those guys down even more. All play almost exactly 20 minutes a game. So Couturier:
Held a Tavares pointless in just over 3 games played
Held RJ, NB, Ovi to 1 point in almost 2 games played
Held Sid to 1 point in 1.5 games played.

So again, how do you think he did?

Go read my words. I did not question his defensive ability. I questioned the word elite. There are lots of good defensive and offensive players in the NHL. Lots of very good of both. Maybe we have a difference with using the word elite. Typically that word is reserved for the very few IMO.

 

[Tripod]

Go read my words. I did not question his defensive ability. I questioned the word elite. There are lots of good defensive and offensive players in the NHL. Lots of very good of both. Maybe we have a difference with using the word elite. Typically that word is reserved for the very few IMO.

He is elite defensively. It's his points that keep him from being in the Selke running each year.

 

[Striiker]

Questioning if his defense is elite or not is questioning his defense...

That's literally the exact thing you're doing.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Boom.
Dynamite logic; especially considering Coots plays a "defensive" role on the team. To not only play a defensive role but to then also outscore the guys on the #1 lines across the league he is put out there to shut down.... that's priceless and incomparable despite however which way you choose to look at the advanced stats of Coots vs Zib.

/thread

Thank you good sir/ma'am. I think so too.

 

[bert]

On a team like the Oilers where we currently have McDavid - Nuge at C ...I take Couturier as hes the perfect 3C

Three lefties though I dunno if you want that.

 

[Protest]

This phrase elite defensively is used a lot in this thread. Wouldn't an elite defensive player get a bit of love in the Selke voting?

Couturier was 30th in Selke voting last year, 9th last year and in his first two years didn't register a vote. Can't hold the first two years against a young kid trying to play defensive hockey in the NHL, and I am not saying he isn't a good defensive player, but elite? Players generally regarded as elite tend to get some recognition when trophy season comes around.

From NHL.Com
Boston Bruins center Patrice Bergeron has captured the Frank J. Selke Trophy in recognition of "the forward who best excels in the defensive aspects of the game," as selected by the Professional Hockey Writers' Association.

From Wikipedia

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game. The winner is selected by a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association following the regular season.[1] It has been awarded 35 times to 23 different players since the 1977–78 NHL season. The current holder is Patrice Bergeron of the Boston Bruins.

So out of touch with reality it's not even funny. The fact that people need to explain to you how Selke voting has changed post lockout makes me call into question whether or not you actually follow the sport. However, seeing as you post on a hockey forum you must follow the sport, in which case you're just being dishonest for the sake of trying to make your incorrect point seem correct. But hey it's not like you've already tried to manipulate facts in this thread.

Also I'm pretty sure he was the youngest player in NHL history to finish top 10 in Selke votes. If he wasn't the youngest he was close to it.