Zetterberg admits cap circumvention

Riptide

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It's not an accusation. All the contracts that are subject to cap recapture penalties are, by definition, cap circumventing contracts.

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-...p-circumventing-contracts-153717517--nhl.html

As CapGeek put it:

As per your own quote "The theory was players would retire and never play those low-salary years, meaning the player would have received more salary than the team was actually charged against the salary cap."

That means it can only be a cap circumvention contract if the player doesn't actually play those years out. If the player finishes his contract in it's entirety - aka plays every single year, then there's no possible way that it's a "cap circumventing contract", as the player was paid 104,400,000 million dollars to play for 12 seasons (Crosby's deal). If he plays out all 12 seasons... there's zero circumvention happening.

The only way it could be circumvention is if Crosby after the 2021/22 season when he's 34 years old (going on 35) decides that getting paid 3m over the next 3 years isn't worth the effort and decides to retire from pro hockey. Then and only then is it a cap circumventing contract. But until then, it's just a long term contract that pays out less in the end then it did at the beginning. And as you can see from my other POST there's clear advantages to both the team and the player to structure a contract like that, that have nothing to do with attempting to circumvent the salary cap.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Riptide

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Crosby is on a cap circumventing contract. That's just a fact.

Actually, that's just an opinion and nothing else.

It's not an accusation. All the contracts that are subject to cap recapture penalties are, by definition, cap circumventing contracts.

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-...p-circumventing-contracts-153717517--nhl.html

As CapGeek put it:

****, now I get it. So any deal that's a back diving contract to lower the AAV is a cap circumventing contract. Just like Giroux, Voracek and Gostisbehere's right?

Giroux: 10m, 9m, 9m, 9m, 9m, 8m, 7m, 5m
Voracek: 10m, 10m, 9.25m, 9.25m, 6.25m, 7.5m, 6.25m, 7.5m
Ghost: 6m, 6m, 5.25m, 3.25m, 3.25m, 3.25m

I mean they have extra years tacked on there where the idea was to bring down the AAV. :sarcasm:
 

Barrie22

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Actually, that's just an opinion and nothing else.



****, now I get it. So any deal that's a back diving contract to lower the AAV is a cap circumventing contract. Just like Giroux, Voracek and Gostisbehere's right?

Giroux: 10m, 9m, 9m, 9m, 9m, 8m, 7m, 5m
Voracek: 10m, 10m, 9.25m, 9.25m, 6.25m, 7.5m, 6.25m, 7.5m
Ghost: 6m, 6m, 5.25m, 3.25m, 3.25m, 3.25m

I mean they have extra years tacked on there where the idea was to bring down the AAV. :sarcasm:

Nope only rival teams do those contracts. His team it is just smart gm'ing.
 

mouser

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No, only those contracts that the player doesn't play out the contract, is actual cap circumvention.

Now, let's talk about the Pronger LTIR and the Clarkson for Horton deal, which are blatant cap circumvention moves...

Why would you say Horton for Clarkson is a cap circumvention deal?
 

Regal

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Why would you say Horton for Clarkson is a cap circumvention deal?

Because they took Horton knowing full well he'd never play again so they could LTIR him. The Leafs don't mind spending the money so it essentially allows them to spend over the cap
 

Riptide

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Because they took Horton knowing full well he'd never play again so they could LTIR him. The Leafs don't mind spending the money so it essentially allows them to spend over the cap

That's not cap circumvention... that's just using what resources you have to the full extent you can. Any team could have traded a crap contract for Horton knowing he'd go onto LTIR.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Why would you say Horton for Clarkson is a cap circumvention deal?

You don't believe a wealthy team buying their way out of a colossal mistake in such a manner doesn't go against the the ideology behind the cap?

That's not cap circumvention... that's just using what resources you have to the full extent you can. Any team could have traded a crap contract for Horton knowing he'd go onto LTIR.

No, not every team can throw away 26.5m dollars to correct a bad signing.

Actually, very few can.
 
Last edited:

mouser

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Because they took Horton knowing full well he'd never play again so they could LTIR him. The Leafs don't mind spending the money so it essentially allows them to spend over the cap

Yes, they can spend over the cap with Horton on LTIR, however the Leafs can't spend over the cap by more then Horton's contract. So there's no net gain to the on-ice payroll Toronto is fielding.
 

Riptide

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No, not every team can throw away 26.5m dollars to correct a bad signing.

Actually, very few can.

Wrong... every team absolutely has the ability to do it. Whether they want to or not is another matter, but they all do have the same option.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Wrong... every team absolutely has the ability to do it. Whether they want to or not is another matter, but they all do have the same option.

No, it's not wrong, actually.

There is a reason some teams have internal caps.

Or are you going to tell me the Sens, Isles, Ducks, Canes etc have books that have as much black as the Leafs...
 

BLONG7

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That's not cap circumvention... that's just using what resources you have to the full extent you can. Any team could have traded a crap contract for Horton knowing he'd go onto LTIR.
You are splitting hairs on this one...it's doing something, not in good faith...

As for Zetterberg, he admitted what everyone already knew...the league stepped in, and changed it all on the next bargaining agreement...
 

Treb

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May 31, 2011
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Actually, that's just an opinion and nothing else.



****, now I get it. So any deal that's a back diving contract to lower the AAV is a cap circumventing contract. Just like Giroux, Voracek and Gostisbehere's right?

Giroux: 10m, 9m, 9m, 9m, 9m, 8m, 7m, 5m
Voracek: 10m, 10m, 9.25m, 9.25m, 6.25m, 7.5m, 6.25m, 7.5m
Ghost: 6m, 6m, 5.25m, 3.25m, 3.25m, 3.25m

I mean they have extra years tacked on there where the idea was to bring down the AAV. :sarcasm:

Crosby is a bit more circumventing:
This part is okay
12M,12M,12M,10.9M,10.9M, 10M, 9M,9.6M,9M
But then you have
3M, 3M, 3M

At least it's not as bad as the Hossa, Pronger, Kovalchuk, Savard etc. contracts.

It's still something that was fixed in the current CBA.
 

Barrie22

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Crosby is a bit more circumventing:
This part is okay
12M,12M,12M,10.9M,10.9M, 10M, 9M,9.6M,9M
But then you have
3M, 3M, 3M

At least it's not as bad as the Hossa, Pronger, Kovalchuk, Savard etc. contracts.

It's still something that was fixed in the current CBA.

Especially when you take into account that crosby should be still playing hockey at the age of 35, 36, 37.

There was no way kovy was playing till 42 or 44 depending on the contract.

Hossa till he was 42.
 

Regal

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Yes, they can spend over the cap with Horton on LTIR, however the Leafs can't spend over the cap by more then Horton's contract. So there's no net gain to the on-ice payroll Toronto is fielding.

I know, but the point is they're essentially spending their way out of Clarkson's contract (through Horton), by being able to field a regular team on top of it. Like a back diving contract that is not fully played out, the team spends more money than they're hit with on the cap. Obviously LTIR is available to anyone, and simply using it itself isn't necessarily circumvention. But here they purposely traded for an injured player knowing full well paying the extra salary cost means nothing to them. Not every team has that luxury. It's not the most egregious but it still seems to go against part of the purpose of the cap to keep big market teams from buying their way out of problems
 

Regal

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Crosby is a bit more circumventing:
This part is okay
12M,12M,12M,10.9M,10.9M, 10M, 9M,9.6M,9M
But then you have
3M, 3M, 3M

At least it's not as bad as the Hossa, Pronger, Kovalchuk, Savard etc. contracts.

It's still something that was fixed in the current CBA.

How much the contract dips is irrelevant to whether it's circumvention or not. What makes a contract circumvention is not that the cap hit is lowered by low salary years at the end, it's that those low salary years are not intended to be played and thus serve only to artificially lower the cap hit. If the player plays all the years of his deal, there is no artificial lowering of his cap because the team has paid out the same amount of money that they've been hit with on the cap.
 

Riptide

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Dec 29, 2011
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Crosby is a bit more circumventing:
This part is okay
12M,12M,12M,10.9M,10.9M, 10M, 9M,9.6M,9M
But then you have
3M, 3M, 3M

At least it's not as bad as the Hossa, Pronger, Kovalchuk, Savard etc. contracts.

It's still something that was fixed in the current CBA.

Again... the only way it's circumventing the cap is if he doesn't play the ****ing games. He'll have just turned 35 when he's getting paid 3m. Do you think at 35 he's going to retire? No, assuming he's healthy (which applies to everyone), he'll play. Which means it's not cap circumvention. :shakehead
 

Riptide

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Yukon
You are splitting hairs on this one...it's doing something, not in good faith...

As for Zetterberg, he admitted what everyone already knew...the league stepped in, and changed it all on the next bargaining agreement...

So you have an issue with Detroit trading Datsyuk's contract to Arizona, or Savard's contract getting moved a bunch of times, or Bolland's contract or Pronger's contract all being traded...
 

Menzinger

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I know, but the point is they're essentially spending their way out of Clarkson's contract (through Horton), by being able to field a regular team on top of it. Like a back diving contract that is not fully played out, the team spends more money than they're hit with on the cap. Obviously LTIR is available to anyone, and simply using it itself isn't necessarily circumvention. But here they purposely traded for an injured player knowing full well paying the extra salary cost means nothing to them. Not every team has that luxury. It's not the most egregious but it still seems to go against part of the purpose of the cap to keep big market teams from buying their way out of problems

That's not the purpose of the cap.

The cap is in place to keep small teams financially viable and in turn the players secure jobs and avoid losing them due to contraction.

Which is why the league, nor players care what Toronto is doing.
 

Regal

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Mar 12, 2010
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That's not the purpose of the cap.

The cap is in place to keep small teams financially viable and in turn the players secure jobs and avoid losing them due to contraction.

Which is why the league, nor players care what Toronto is doing.

The spirit of the cap is clearly more than that. How important that side ultimately is is up for debate.
 

Empoleon8771

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I don't know why people have such an issue with these contracts, at least to the point where people seriously complain that records should be rewritten because of them. The contracts that were handed out were handed out a ton and were completely legal at the time. The NHL also introduced penalties to punish teams who gave out too long of contracts with the recapture penalty, plus they dinged New Jersey on a hilarious attempt at cap circumnavigation (like it wasn't even a question, he made $550k a year in the last 5 years of his contract). Do people seriously think that backdiving contracts are so unfair that teams should lose cup wins because of them? Like seriously?
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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****, now I get it. So any deal that's a back diving contract to lower the AAV is a cap circumventing contract. Just like Giroux, Voracek and Gostisbehere's right?

Giroux: 10m, 9m, 9m, 9m, 9m, 8m, 7m, 5m
Voracek: 10m, 10m, 9.25m, 9.25m, 6.25m, 7.5m, 6.25m, 7.5m
Ghost: 6m, 6m, 5.25m, 3.25m, 3.25m, 3.25m

I mean they have extra years tacked on there where the idea was to bring down the AAV. :sarcasm:

Those contracts aren't subject to cap recapture.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

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I don't know why people have such an issue with these contracts, at least to the point where people seriously complain that records should be rewritten because of them. The contracts that were handed out were handed out a ton and were completely legal at the time. The NHL also introduced penalties to punish teams who gave out too long of contracts with the recapture penalty, plus they dinged New Jersey on a hilarious attempt at cap circumnavigation (like it wasn't even a question, he made $550k a year in the last 5 years of his contract). Do people seriously think that backdiving contracts are so unfair that teams should lose cup wins because of them? Like seriously?

The issue some people have, which I think is a legitimate gripe, is how the league condones some cap circumvention while punishing others. Pronger being on LTIR on a team's roster, employed in the NHL front office, and in the HHoF is a pretty hilarious example. Detroit being able to trade Datsyuk's contract even though he was 100% not going to play in the NHL is another.
 

SmellOfVictory

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To me, any team that had to use these contracts to win it takes away from their accomplishments.

To me, the last two Penguins cups aren't that impressive and don't really count. They have two amazing players worth 11M a piece on cap circumventing contracts (Gives them easily 10M in capspace) playing against teams with their best players on 8 years deals with huge cap hits.

The worst part is, Detroit is bad now so they won't even be truly punished unless they get the NJ treatment and put at the end of the first round next year.

Crosby's contract doesn't have any real throwaway seasons on it; the lowest year he's got is at 3 million. I have no idea who else you might be referring to, as the rest of the Pens team is on contracts that were signed under the current CBA.

The teams that really benefited from cap circumvention were the Hawks and the Kings (Kings moreso to dig themselves out of a hole than any particularly egregious contracts).
 

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