Zemgus for Captain

[SabreBlood]

i think you what you want in a Captain, should be what you want OUT of a Captain.

If we are talking about a well built team, intending to contend... I absolutely agree.

When we are talking about a bottom of the barrel, rebuilding team... I want a different type of Captain to go through the transition with... as I've made clear with my opinions on the subject that get routinely laughed at while people suggest Thomas Vanek as Captain, a guy who's qualifications fit neither a contender or a rebuild.

So what you're saying is, the best choice for a rebuilding team would be one of the team's multiple 7th defensemen? Mike Weber as Sabres' Captain for this season? Come on already. You don't win them all.

As for Z, he looks like he's got the personality for it. He's got the work ethic. He's got plenty of talent, so he'll always be in the lineup. There's no reason to think he won't always be one of, if not the hardest working player on the team. It's just too early right now. By next season, it may not be, however. Depends on his continued development. If Ott is still here, he'd likely keep it. Signing him to an extention and then removing the 'C' doesn't coincide. Z could very well be the next captain, depending on what happens with Ott.

 

[gallagt01]

If the Sabres' coach deems him worthy in the next couple of years then so be it. Those claiming he's too young (when naming young captains has become commonplace in this league) don't know that. None of us know who's capable of donning the C because none of us are in the room.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

With a young, developing, bottom dwelling team Buffalo is narrowed down to a choice of a few veterans that are actually on the ice during games on a regular basis.

That leaves obvious non-candidates like Leino and Stafford, possibly Tallinder or Ott if they are still around, or more likely Ehrhoff. Younger players that have been around a while like Hodgson and Myers might be worth a letter if there aren't enough vets. I'd be fine with Weber having a "A" (because I like him), but first he'd have to establish himself as a regular player, and actually be on the ice.

I wouldn't force captaincy onto a young developing player until he first locks up a roster spot as a regularly productive player, and therefore naturally gains the credibility and respect he needs to wear the "C".

 

[Jame]

Let's be clear. I'm not laughing at you because of why you thought Weber would be a good captain. I laugh at you because you just assumed a fringe NHLer was suddenly going to become a defense stalwart the team could lean on, a year after you yourself proclaimed him the worst defender on the team. Now we get a thread to make a kid captain because he scored 2 goals after getting benched. All we need I someone to suggest that Stafford and a second is good value to trade for a better captain and we would win HF Bingo.

My view of a Weber captaincy had very little to do with on ice role/ability. And everything to do with culture/character in what was easy to forsee as difficult years.

It was measured against the situations of other candidates and a future where a new leadership core would need to emerge

- naming a guy who clearly wanted out, was stupid (vanek)
- forcing yourselves into an UFA Captaincy situation (vanek/ott), was stupid
- naming a long term contract player Captain was less desirable (Ehrhoff), because you don't want to strip a captaincy in 3 years.

naming a player signed for 3 years, who demonstrates leadership qualities from a compete/character/work ethic perspective while being a marginal player... would've been a much better route to take.

talent was completely irrelevant given our situation

 

[SabreBlood]

My view of a Weber captaincy had very little to do with on ice role/ability. And everything to do with culture/character in what was easy to forsee as difficult years.

It was measured against the situations of other candidates and a future where a new leadership core would need to emerge

- naming a guy who clearly wanted out, was stupid (vanek)
- forcing yourselves into an UFA Captaincy situation (vanek/ott), was stupid
- naming a long term contract player Captain was less desirable (Ehrhoff), because you don't want to strip a captaincy in 3 years.

naming a player signed for 3 years, who demonstrates leadership qualities from a compete/character/work ethic perspective while being a marginal player... would've been a much better route to take.

talent was completely irrelevant given our situation

Naming Weber captain was a much better route to take? What would have been better?

 

[Jim Bob]

Naming Weber captain was a much better route to take? What would have been better?

You can't healthy scratch the captain, so playing Weber more would aid in the tank.

 

[cybresabre]

Naming Weber captain was a much better route to take? What would have been better?

What exactly are people expecting the impact of this team's captain to be? We've been a listless, uninspired team for much of the year with two separate captains. Vanek was useless as captain and Ott has not stood out with the consonant on his chest. I was hoping Steve would step up his game, but I haven't seen it yet. Our young players were not ready for an official leadership role and slapping a C onto one of their chests before it was earned would have added friction and extra pressure in an already difficult year. We'd be tied to that player as captain for the long haul and we'd be praying that it was the right choice when the team has better players and is ready to contend. Ehrhoff's in the same boat.

Let's make it clear that I'm not hitching my horse to the Weber cart, it would have been another embarrassment in a season of embarrassments for the worst team in the league to healthy scratch its captain. People are over-thinking the Weber/captain thing big time, though. The whole stupid meme would have died out ages ago if it weren't such an easy jab to take at our board's most abrasive poster. Objectively looking beyond the poster and giving what he was saying a fair shake:

This year is a lost cause, next year will likely be hard as well. Weber would have been a transitional captain on a terrible team that is devoid of leadership. Nobody would have expected him to be the ice general who straps the team to his back and leads this city to glory. He is not talented, but he clawed his way into last year's lineup after missing the cut for many years and played well. He goes all out to throw his body at both shots and the opposition, and despite being a terrible fighter, he's willing to get his face caved in to stand up for a teammate. Guys will follow a captain who has put in honest work, has been given nothing, and is willing to put the team's good ahead of his own comfort and safety. There are far worse options and we're a historically bad team with or without Mike as captain.

This season he has been a poor player on a team that lacks talent, but nobody expected this level of ineptitude. He's not a foundation piece of this rebuild and it'd make for an easy transition when a young player steps up. The fact that he is not a good player only means that he'll be off the team when the team makes its ascent.

 

[joshjull]

How about Zemgus for left wing

 

[stokes84]

How about Zemgus for left wing

He's doing pretty well at RW, why mess with it?

 

[SabreBlood]

What exactly are people expecting the impact of this team's captain to be? We've been a listless, uninspired team for much of the year with two separate captains. Vanek was useless as captain and Ott has not stood out with the consonant on his chest. I was hoping Steve would step up his game, but I haven't seen it yet. Our young players were not ready for an official leadership role and slapping a C onto one of their chests before it was earned would have added friction and extra pressure in an already difficult year. We'd be tied to that player as captain for the long haul and we'd be praying that it was the right choice when the team has better players and is ready to contend. Ehrhoff's in the same boat.

Let's make it clear that I'm not hitching my horse to the Weber cart, it would have been another embarrassment in a season of embarrassments for the worst team in the league to healthy scratch its captain. People are over-thinking the Weber/captain thing big time, though. The whole stupid meme would have died out ages ago if it weren't such an easy jab to take at our board's most abrasive poster. Objectively looking beyond the poster and giving what he was saying a fair shake:

This year is a lost cause, next year will likely be hard as well. Weber would have been a transitional captain on a terrible team that is devoid of leadership. Nobody would have expected him to be the ice general who straps the team to his back and leads this city to glory. He is not talented, but he clawed his way into last year's lineup after missing the cut for many years and played well. He goes all out to throw his body at both shots and the opposition, and despite being a terrible fighter, he's willing to get his face caved in to stand up for a teammate. Guys will follow a captain who has put in honest work, has been given nothing, and is willing to put the team's good ahead of his own comfort and safety. There are far worse options and we're a historically bad team with or without Mike as captain.

This season he has been a poor player on a team that lacks talent, but nobody expected this level of ineptitude. He's not a foundation piece of this rebuild and it'd make for an easy transition when a young player steps up. The fact that he is not a good player only means that he'll be off the team when the team makes its ascent.

The first sentence in your post is essentially the same question I asked Jame. 'What would have been better' had Weber been named captain? You didn't answer it either. You just rephrased the question.

I don't think it's too much to ask that the captain be a guy that will play without being scratched due to underperforming.

 

[Sabres Fan UK]

Leaders will lead regardless of having a letter on their jersey. Ultimately, Girgensons will probably get the "C", so we don't need to give it to him prematurely, just let him develop his skillset so he can lead AND be even more of a catalyst on the ice. I'm not saying giving him a letter would "ruin" his development but would be change for the sake of change which at this time would not alter anything on ice.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

My view of a Weber captaincy had very little to do with on ice role/ability. And everything to do with culture/character in what was easy to forsee as difficult years.

It was measured against the situations of other candidates and a future where a new leadership core would need to emerge

- naming a guy who clearly wanted out, was stupid (vanek)
- forcing yourselves into an UFA Captaincy situation (vanek/ott), was stupid
- naming a long term contract player Captain was less desirable (Ehrhoff), because you don't want to strip a captaincy in 3 years.

naming a player signed for 3 years, who demonstrates leadership qualities from a compete/character/work ethic perspective while being a marginal player... would've been a much better route to take.

talent was completely irrelevant given our situation

Every single point you make is rendered absolutely worthless when your captain is scratched and in the press box. You cant compete in the press box. You can't work hard in the press box. You can't demonstrate character in the press box. You cant look a player in the eyes who isn't performing and tell them what needs to be said when you cant perform at a level that gets you a jersey to wear every night. "Man you are a beast in practice!" Might as well bring Mike Grier out of retirement to be the captain, you can scratch him every night and he can practice his balls off and yell at people after warmups. You are absolutely, and incredibly wrong.

 

[gallagt01]

Every single point you make is rendered absolutely worthless when your captain is scratched and in the press box. You cant compete in the press box. You can't work hard in the press box. You can't demonstrate character in the press box. You cant look a player in the eyes who isn't performing and tell them what needs to be said when you cant perform at a level that gets you a jersey to wear every night. "Man you are a beast in practice!" Might as well bring Mike Grier out of retirement to be the captain, you can scratch him every night and he can practice his balls off and yell at people after warmups. You are absolutely, and incredibly wrong.

I don't think Jame is lobbying for Weber as captain anymore; he was doing so in the offseason when Weber, fresh off a solid season in which he became a regular player, was inked to a three-year extension.

I don't think anyone was predicting Weber would play himself out of the top six as he has.

 

[Paxon]

I don't think Jame is lobbying for Weber as captain anymore; he was doing so in the offseason when Weber, fresh off a solid season in which he became a regular player, was inked to a three-year extension.

I don't think anyone was predicting Weber would play himself out of the top six as he has.

Plenty of people were saying -- against the idea of making him captain -- that he could easily find himself in the situation he since has.

 

[cybresabre]

The first sentence in your post is essentially the same question I asked Jame. 'What would have been better' had Weber been named captain? You didn't answer it either. You just rephrased the question.

I don't think it's too much to ask that the captain be a guy that will play without being scratched due to underperforming.

Every single point you make is rendered absolutely worthless when your captain is scratched and in the press box. You cant compete in the press box.

Weber played 42 games last year, he was by far the most aggressive defender and he led the team in blocked shots by a substantial margin. If you anticipated his 2013-2014 season being this terrible, you are in the minority and I admire your divination skill. The captain thread was made in the offseason and looking back at preseason lineup threads, the vast majority of people had Mike penciled in the lineup, not the press box. The team as a whole has performed worse than most expected and of that bad bunch, Weber has been one of the worst.

As I've said, my point is not that Weber should have been captain. My point is that it's frustrating that people find it so laughable for one of our few high character players who had shown improvement and heart to be mentioned as a potential candidate for captaincy in a transition year.

To answer the question, though, we'd be still be a bad team if Weber were captain, if Vanek were still sleepwalking through the entire year with the C, or even if the ghost of Messier possessed Brian Flynn. A letter doesn't make someone a leader and it doesn't have an explicit impact on goals for and against, but you'd hope to see a team with a heart and soul captain mirror some of those traits. I think Vanek playing like he had a skate out the door impacted the team and while I don't think having a different captain would necessarily have led to more wins, maybe a captain with heart would have inspired the team to play with more honest effort. The team lacks talent and lacks the motor necessary to win without it.

 

[gallagt01]

Plenty of people were saying -- against the idea of making him captain -- that he could easily find himself in the situation he since has.

Regardless, his Weber-for-captain argument was built on the assumption that he had finally broken through as a regular NHL player. Had he known Weber's play would have fallen as far as it has, I'm sure Jame wouldn't have been beating that drum so hard.

 

[Ron C.]

This was the Gaustad pick (plus a little). Not a bad return on a rental.

 

[SabreBlood]

Weber played 42 games last year, he was by far the most aggressive defender and he led the team in blocked shots by a substantial margin. If you anticipated his 2013-2014 season being this terrible, you are in the minority and I admire your divination skill. The captain thread was made in the offseason and looking back at preseason lineup threads, the vast majority of people had Mike penciled in the lineup, not the press box. The team as a whole has performed worse than most expected and of that bad bunch, Weber has been one of the worst.

As I've said, my point is not that Weber should have been captain. My point is that it's frustrating that people find it so laughable for one of our few high character players who had shown improvement and heart to be mentioned as a potential candidate for captaincy in a transition year.

To answer the question, though, we'd be still be a bad team if Weber were captain, if Vanek were still sleepwalking through the entire year with the C, or even if the ghost of Messier possessed Brian Flynn. A letter doesn't make someone a leader and it doesn't have an explicit impact on goals for and against, but you'd hope to see a team with a heart and soul captain mirror some of those traits. I think Vanek playing like he had a skate out the door impacted the team and while I don't think having a different captain would necessarily have led to more wins, maybe a captain with heart would have inspired the team to play with more honest effort. The team lacks talent and lacks the motor necessary to win without it.

I definitely didn't anticipate his game dropping off like this, but I also didn't think his game or career had reached a point where he should be seriously considered for the captaincy. Yes, he's a worker. He's a gritty, tough, honest defensive defenseman. We love players like that. Even as a transitional captain, you need to be more than that. Consistency, for starters. One shortened season of consistency doesn't equal that, and never did. It's not like people waited for Weber to be scratched this year, or began to underperform, before they pointed it out to Jame. It was a silly idea from the start. Some peope own it and move on. Others don't.

 

[SabreBlood]

This was the Gaustad pick (plus a little). Not a bad return on a rental.

Gaustad hasn't been a rental for the Predators. He's still there, and he's signed with them through 2016.

I agree though, a 1st rounder for him was excellent asset management. The Predators likely had plans to wrap him up prior to the trade, however. Hence their reasoning for giving up first round pick for him.

 

[Jame]

I definitely didn't anticipate his game dropping off like this, but I also didn't think his game or career had reached a point where he should be seriously considered for the captaincy. Yes, he's a worker. He's a gritty, tough, honest defensive defenseman. We love players like that. Even as a transitional captain, you need to be more than that. Consistency, for starters. One shortened season of consistency doesn't equal that, and never did. It's not like people waited for Weber to be scratched this year, or began to underperform, before they pointed it out to Jame. It was a silly idea from the start. Some peope own it and move on. Others don't.

Consistency in effort and work ethic is what matters in these transitional years. It was a good idea, for anyone who can see past the myth of the captaincy.

 

[Jame]

Every single point you make is rendered absolutely worthless when your captain is scratched and in the press box. You cant compete in the press box. You can't work hard in the press box. You can't demonstrate character in the press box. You cant look a player in the eyes who isn't performing and tell them what needs to be said when you cant perform at a level that gets you a jersey to wear every night. "Man you are a beast in practice!" Might as well bring Mike Grier out of retirement to be the captain, you can scratch him every night and he can practice his balls off and yell at people after warmups. You are absolutely, and incredibly wrong.

Your Captain wouldn't be scratched in the press box... your point is rendered worthless

 

[Jame]

What exactly are people expecting the impact of this team's captain to be? We've been a listless, uninspired team for much of the year with two separate captains. Vanek was useless as captain and Ott has not stood out with the consonant on his chest. I was hoping Steve would step up his game, but I haven't seen it yet. Our young players were not ready for an official leadership role and slapping a C onto one of their chests before it was earned would have added friction and extra pressure in an already difficult year. We'd be tied to that player as captain for the long haul and we'd be praying that it was the right choice when the team has better players and is ready to contend. Ehrhoff's in the same boat.

Let's make it clear that I'm not hitching my horse to the Weber cart, it would have been another embarrassment in a season of embarrassments for the worst team in the league to healthy scratch its captain. People are over-thinking the Weber/captain thing big time, though. The whole stupid meme would have died out ages ago if it weren't such an easy jab to take at our board's most abrasive poster. Objectively looking beyond the poster and giving what he was saying a fair shake:

This year is a lost cause, next year will likely be hard as well. Weber would have been a transitional captain on a terrible team that is devoid of leadership. Nobody would have expected him to be the ice general who straps the team to his back and leads this city to glory. He is not talented, but he clawed his way into last year's lineup after missing the cut for many years and played well. He goes all out to throw his body at both shots and the opposition, and despite being a terrible fighter, he's willing to get his face caved in to stand up for a teammate. Guys will follow a captain who has put in honest work, has been given nothing, and is willing to put the team's good ahead of his own comfort and safety. There are far worse options and we're a historically bad team with or without Mike as captain.

This season he has been a poor player on a team that lacks talent, but nobody expected this level of ineptitude. He's not a foundation piece of this rebuild and it'd make for an easy transition when a young player steps up. The fact that he is not a good player only means that he'll be off the team when the team makes its ascent.

your objective reasoning is spot on.

 

[SabreBlood]

Consistency in effort and work ethic is what matters in these transitional years. It was a good idea, for anyone who can see past the myth of the captaincy.

Consistency in doing a good enough job to dress when healthy, there's nothing mythical about that. You keep ignoring that, which is why it continues to be brought up.

 

[AirBriere48]

Consistency in effort and work ethic is what matters in these transitional years. It was a good idea, for anyone who can see past the myth of the captaincy.

To the bitter, bitter end.

 

[SabreBlood]

Your Captain wouldn't be scratched in the press box... your point is rendered worthless

Weber wouldn't be scratched? Why? Simply because you shouldn't healthy-scratch your captain? That would mean he's playing every night simply because he was named captian, and not due to his play, which has been suspect and scratch-worthy.

Now you've created a really a horrible situation at captain. Far worse than what we have now. Good idea, indeed.