Zdeno Chara

[Kreegz2]

Stevens didn't give out headshots. He gave out body checks to players who had their head down. It was once taught in hockey that if you didn't keep your head up, then you would get your bell rung. Now hockey has been P*******d and you can't hit someone unless they are ready for it. Game has gone down hill.

I totally agree with the point you're making, but for brevity's sake it's easier to just say "headshot".

 

[Ned Bouhalassa]

In no particular order: Chelios, Lidstrom, Bourque, Orr, Coffey, Harvey, MacInnis, Robinson, Savard, Potvin, Pronger, Stevens, Niedermayer, Shore, Horton, Leetch, and Park.

One of these guys is not like the Orrthers.

 

[MetM]

Scott Stevens = underrated.

He would be suspended too much in today's NHL though

 

[Weztex]

Yeah I know, one of them being Eddie Shore when hockey was an entirely different sport, heck even in the 70s it was, nevermind the 1930s.

You shouldn't be allowed to discuss historical rankings if you are not able or willing to take history into account.

 

[authentic]

I am not sure to follow the message you quoted said:

I think he’d be behind Orr, Chelios, Harvey, Robinson, Potvin, Bourque, Lidstrom, Coffey, Pronger and MacInnis.

​

Most of them played games against Chara (and many were better than him some season they were playing in the same league at the same time) and not from some remote previous era.

This is the post I quoted.

"In no particular order: Chelios, Lidstrom, Bourque, Orr, Coffey, Harvey, MacInnis, Robinson, Savard, Potvin, Pronger, Stevens, Niedermayer, Shore, Horton, Leetch, and Park."

I started watching hockey in the early 90s I know who played and when, even guys from the beginning of the NHL because I've read up on hockey history enough times.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

You wont buy Pronger? Pronger has a Hart trophy. He has multiple ridiculously dominant playoff runs, was better/more consistent offensively, actually played a more intimidating/mean game consistently and was one of the best defensively ever. There isnt a real argument for Chara over Pronger unless youre a Bruins fan.

As for Keith, I would have them pretty close probably but Keith might be ahead. People are acting like Chara had some insane run of Norris trophies in this thread. He has one. Keith has 2 norrises, a conn smythe and was the backbone of 3 cups. I wouldnt have them far apart but theres definitely an argument for them being close, and likely when it comes down to it, Keith a little bit ahead. Keith didnt have the longevity but those cups years with Chicago he was doing stuff Chara didnt do really.

Using Norris trophies as a barometer is specious at best, because we all know Chara was robbed of one when Lidstrom was basically given one as a career award in a year when Chara was light years better. You said it yourself, Keith didn't have longevity, and he also was never a dominant defenseman in the way Chara was. I don't think there's any sort of argument for them being even close. The only real argurment is for Chara and Pronger to be close. They were both dominant, in ways that Keith could only dream of.

 

[NinjaKick]

Freak of nature, guaranteed HOFer

 

[authentic]

You shouldn't be allowed to discuss historical rankings if you are not able or willing to take history into account.

Yeah you're right it's a bad habit of mine. I guess it's because I'm a fan of the history of the game while at the same time seeing them for what they were rather than how they dominated their peers.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Watched him against the Isles, he and McAvoy were still the best Boston D men. He was moving better than I ever saw him. Gap control, long effective stick, a big fight, jumping into the play. He did it all. Freak of nature. There is no way this guy should be playing at his level at age just turned 42.

 

[HHHH]

Great discussion...lots of good points. I don't have him in the top 10, but in the 10-15 range, but definitely an HOF'er

 

[MadLuke]

This is the post I quoted.

"In no particular order: Chelios, Lidstrom, Bourque, Orr, Coffey, Harvey, MacInnis, Robinson, Savard, Potvin, Pronger, Stevens, Niedermayer, Shore, Horton, Leetch, and Park."

I started watching hockey in the early 90s I know who played and when, even guys from the beginning of the NHL because I've read up on hockey history enough times.

Not on my browser:

Zdeno Chara

The post you quoted said:
I think he’d be behind Orr, Chelios, Harvey, Robinson, Potvin, Bourque, Lidstrom, Coffey, Pronger and MacInnis.

So all this was pure misunderstanding of you misquoting the wrong post or the post getting edited over time. But even with that message, your answer: not one defenseman who began their career after 1990, does not work either obviously, Lidstrom, Pronger, Niedermayer career all started after 1990.

 

[Over the volcano]

Watched him against the Isles, he and McAvoy were still the best Boston D men. He was moving better than I ever saw him. Gap control, long effective stick, a big fight, jumping into the play. He did it all. Freak of nature. There is no way this guy should be playing at his level at age just turned 42.

This was posted toward the end of that game.. f ing nuts

 

[Weztex]

Yeah you're right it's a bad habit of mine. I guess it's because I'm a fan of the history of the game while at the same time seeing them for what they were rather than how they dominated their peers.

Thing is ''what they were'' depends a whole lot on ''what was available to them''. Isn't it kind of pointless to have historical discussions if environnement isn't taken into account? Let's just take the top scorers of the last 5 years and call them the best ever then.

Eddie Shore has 4 Hart trophies (and would have had 7 Norris). Slice it anyway you want, he is a more accomplished hockey player than Chara. They didn't face each other and never will. In the end, no player should be punished because of the year he was born.

 

[end]

Do people have Chara as the top guy of the last 15 years? Not counting Nick Lidstrom, post-lockout?

 

[TKB]

Using Norris trophies as a barometer is specious at best, because we all know Chara was robbed of one when Lidstrom was basically given one as a career award in a year when Chara was light years better. You said it yourself, Keith didn't have longevity, and he also was never a dominant defenseman in the way Chara was. I don't think there's any sort of argument for them being even close. The only real argurment is for Chara and Pronger to be close. They were both dominant, in ways that Keith could only dream of.

While I agree with your point about using the Norris, I don't recall the specific year, but there was at least once earlier in his career where many if not most thought Lidstrom should have won a Norris.

It is just how it goes, almost as if you have to have a Norris caliber year before you are really considered for the award.

Personally the only award I really care about is the Lindsay (player voted) and any of the player polls. The players and coaches know who the best are, the press is largely looking at meaningless stats (all of them) and riding bandwagons.

 

[Cellee]

He would be suspended too much in today's NHL though

1. He was not just a great hitter(maybe the best ever) he was a great defenceman.

2. He would have adjusted his game, he was a very smart player.

3. He was a well above average offensive defenceman.

 

[KingTux]

He's closer to top 10 than what most people think IMO

 

[Glove Malfunction]

Personally the only award I really care about is the Lindsay (player voted) and any of the player polls. The players and coaches know who the best are, the press is largely looking at meaningless stats (all of them) and riding bandwagons.

100% agree.

 

[Cellee]

Do people have Chara as the top guy of the last 15 years? Not counting Nick Lidstrom, post-lockout?

If Pronger stayed healthy I'm not sure he is better than Pronger.

 

[roflstomper]

Hard to put him in the top 10, extremely hard to put him out of the top 15.

 

[DKH]

I have seen atleast 1500 games live and my parents seats at the old Garden were row 1 above the corner clock Orr scored - mine now are row 2 in back of goal judge Bruins defend twice

Got to watch a lot of defenseman up close

I can comment since 66/67 which is when my folks started taking me regularly

I had a nice streak from 1982-1996
I went seasons not missing a game

You guys have done a great job rating these guys

Chara is probably top 25 overall certainly in post expansion and defensively top 5

Orr was otherworldly and Bourque was a beast

No order

Potvin
Robinson
Stevens
Neidermeyer
Park
Lidstrom
Chara
Leetch
Pronger
Chelios
McInnis
Fetisov
Coffey

Doughty will be there

I know Keith made top 100 but on the fence with him

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Orr
Harvey
Bourque
Lidstrom
Shore
Potvin
Robinson
Kelly
Park
Chelios

Those would be the ones I put on my top 10.

He'd be in the 20-25 range for me likely.

Yeah, that's a pretty tough list to crack.

Coffey, Niedermayer and Pronger would have something to say about it too.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I have seen atleast 1500 games live and my parents seats at the old Garden were row 1 above the corner clock Orr scored - mine now are row 2 in back of goal judge Bruins defend twice

Got to watch a lot of defenseman up close

I can comment since 66/67 which is when my folks started taking me regularly

I had a nice streak from 1982-1996
I went seasons not missing a game

You guys have done a great job rating these guys

Chara is probably top 25 overall certainly in post expansion and defensively top 5

Orr was otherworldly and Bourque was a beast

No order

Potvin
Robinson
Stevens
Neidermeyer
Park
Lidstrom
Chara
Leetch
Pronger
Chelios
McInnis
Fetisov
Coffey

Doughty will be there

I know Keith made top 100 but on the fence with him

Still don't get how Pierre Pilotte didn't make the top 100... Eight straight with a top five Norris finish including winning the award three times.

 

[crowi]

Top 10-20 for me. He is one of the only players his size to play so well for a long time.. being his size is rare in the sport already.

 

[gorangers0525]

Do people have Chara as the top guy of the last 15 years? Not counting Nick Lidstrom, post-lockout?

Not counting Lidstrom, Keith is probably closest. Karlsson may surpass him at some point, but idt anyone else is particularly close.