Zadina is getting ready

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Zadina really looked good last year at the beginning of the season, than he got Covid, which had to have affected him the rest of the season as well as threw off any of his progress. He was literally one of the best forwards before than but never really got back to what he was at the beginning of the season

Long term effects of COVID are no joke. Look at Rossi losing an entire year to heart problems brought on by COVID, and how Ristolainen was KO'd by it earlier this season.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I'm still not sold on Zadina as being part of our core (i.e. Top 6 Winger on our team in two years). The talent is there, he has an absurd snap shot that's very quick, deceptive, and accurate and I do think he has a good general feel for the flow of the offense in terms of finding open space and being ready to rip a shot. But he's pretty one dimensional. He doesn't bring much else to the table other than that.

In a way, he reminds of Poor Man's, Mini-Brett Hull (not meant as an insult, more the type of player he is). That being said, if you actually put Zadina with a semi-competent, two-way setup up man who could create a lane for him, have the vision to recognize where Zadina is on the ice or where he's going to be, and minimum level of skill to deliver that puck so Zadina could rip off a shot, could we see him be our top goal scoring finisher? Yeah, I think it's in the realm of possibility. Its why I'm so curious to see Zadina with a guy like Suter. Suter isn't exactly Sidney Crosby, but he's probably the most complete C that Zadina could have potentially played with to this point and I'm wondering if we'll get a sense of his ceiling this year

Nino Niederreiter but less of a dick is my comparable. People forget that Niederreiter was a 5th overall pick. Sometimes guys in the top 5 (or top 6 in this case) don't turn into massive scoring machines like we hoped they would. And Niederreiter was traded for Viktor Rask, a 2 poor man's 2C/Rich man's 3C. So that's a pretty good return for a guy that is a legit top 6 winger.

Maybe we need to adjust our expectations on realistic projections? @Hen Kolland , do you still have that chart of points per game by draft position and player position? Maybe we need to sticky that somewhere so we can point at it and say, "Well he's scoring at 0.60ppg when his draft position's average is 0.50ppg so he's doing relatively well."

 

[Winger98]

Sure. To a degree.

And then Vrana comes in and proves that goal scorers score goals.

Adam Erne had an 11 game stretch where he put up six goals. Are we going to call him a goal scorer because he had a hot stretch that wasn't sustainable? Vrana came in, had a shoot% that was nearly double his career average.

this isn't to say that Vrana isn't a better goal scorer than pretty much everyone else on the team, just that I am a bit hesitant to use an eleven game sample that was well above his career norm as a cudgel to beat against the other guys for not scoring more goals.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Long term effects of COVID are no joke. Look at Rossi losing an entire year to heart problems brought on by COVID, and how Ristolainen was KO'd by it earlier this season.

There was a huge study with a ton of evidence that Covid patients experienced "brain fog" that effectively reduced their IQ by several points, something like 6 months or a year after recovery. I can easily imagine that affecting an NHL player in subtle ways you won't actually be able to pinpoint.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

There was a huge study with a ton of evidence that Covid patients experienced "brain fog" that effectively reduced their IQ by several points, something like 6 months or a year after recovery. I can easily imagine that affecting an NHL player in subtle ways you won't actually be able to pinpoint.

I didn't know there was a study but I can personally attest to that. I had covid in march of 2020 and it kicked my ass. My ADD felt like it was twice as bad for probably another 2 months after. Heart and lung issues are another problem that can persist well after having covid. As an athlete that is going to really bite you in the ass when you're doing quick sprints all over the ice for 16 minutes a night.

 

[Henkka]

Adam Erne had an 11 game stretch where he put up six goals. Are we going to call him a goal scorer because he had a hot stretch that wasn't sustainable? Vrana came in, had a shoot% that was nearly double his career average.

this isn't to say that Vrana isn't a better goal scorer than pretty much everyone else on the team, just that I am a bit hesitant to use an eleven game sample that was well above his career norm as a cudgel to beat against the other guys for not scoring more goals.

I could care less about Vrana goalscoring, but he has elite speed vs. Zadina. Vrana should put Zadina to same skating lessons he has taken, or something more.

When Zadina will get Elite speed, he has all the time and space then to become a great point-scorer. Before that, he will struggle.

 

[izlez]

Did you honestly just use a link to take people to an MBH hate post as reasonable evidence?

A post citing stats and fancy stats, along with people using their own eye test, to refute the idea that Zadina was great based on the eye test.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Nino Niederreiter but less of a dick is my comparable. People forget that Niederreiter was a 5th overall pick. Sometimes guys in the top 5 (or top 6 in this case) don't turn into massive scoring machines like we hoped they would. And Niederreiter was traded for Viktor Rask, a 2 poor man's 2C/Rich man's 3C. So that's a pretty good return for a guy that is a legit top 6 winger.

Maybe we need to adjust our expectations on realistic projections? @Hen Kolland , do you still have that chart of points per game by draft position and player position? Maybe we need to sticky that somewhere so we can point at it and say, "Well he's scoring at 0.60ppg when his draft position's average is 0.50ppg so he's doing relatively well."

I’m flattered you think I plan far enough ahead to have saved something like that. I can always try to remodel it.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I’m flattered you think I plan far enough ahead to have saved something like that. I can always try to remodel it.

It would be very helpful to have as a comparative tool.

 

[MBH]

Adam Erne had an 11 game stretch where he put up six goals. Are we going to call him a goal scorer because he had a hot stretch that wasn't sustainable? Vrana came in, had a shoot% that was nearly double his career average.

this isn't to say that Vrana isn't a better goal scorer than pretty much everyone else on the team, just that I am a bit hesitant to use an eleven game sample that was well above his career norm as a cudgel to beat against the other guys for not scoring more goals.

Maybe Vrana was a flash in the plan.
But he didn't need slick linemates to score.
AA scored 30 with Glendening and Nielsen.

Zadina's goal scoring woes are on Zadina.
He played 16:48 a game.
He played lots of PP time and he was the shooter on the powerplay.

At 5 on 5, he averaged 6.16 shots/60 - that ranks 12th among Wings forwards.
On the PP he averaged 12.7 shots/60 - second to mantha.

But he didn't take shots at 5 on 5.

 

[Winger98]

Maybe Vrana was a flash in the plan.
But he didn't need slick linemates to score.
AA scored 30 with Glendening and Nielsen.

Zadina's goal scoring woes are on Zadina.
He played 16:48 a game.
He played lots of PP time and he was the shooter on the powerplay.

At 5 on 5, he averaged 6.16 shots/60 - that ranks 12th among Wings forwards.
On the PP he averaged 12.7 shots/60 - second to mantha.

But he didn't take shots at 5 on 5.

Yeah, that was also the last year Nielsen produced respectably. And Larkin. And Vanek. We had Nyquist put up 49 points in 62 games. We also had Green and Kronwall to go with Hronek in moving the puck from the backend.

After that year we bled vet talent up and down the lineup, though especially on the blueline, and we saw the production of guys like Larkin, Mantha, etc. either drop or become far more mercurial. I don't think this is a coincidence, and this doesn't touch on the wings having to play a far more conservative game as the talent bleed continued.

Does Zadina need to shoot more? Yeah, and now we should have the talent to help facilitate that.

 

[GMR]

Getting ready to be a two-way forward? Or getting ready to score some freakin' goals?

 

[Hen Kolland]

It would be very helpful to have as a comparative tool.

I don't have a spreadsheet anymore, but I have a screenshot. Fortunately, this was done through the end of 2020-21. The only data we are missing are the high, high level players from the 2019 and 2020 classes. But they probably warp the data negatively more than they enhance it.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I don't have a spreadsheet anymore, but I have a screenshot. Fortunately, this was done through the end of 2020-21. The only data we are missing are the high, high level players from the 2019 and 2020 classes. But they probably warp the data negatively more than they enhance it.

View attachment 462576

Huh. It's looking like the 6th overall pick is mediocre for forwards. I just looked and the highest scoring #6 pick in that time frame was Mikko Koivu. Some notables that may catch him in the long run are Zibanejad and Monahan (if he can return to health) and possibly Matt Tkachuk. These are guys that might reach the 0.75ppg (or 61.5 points per 82 games) threshold that we hope to see from the #6 pick.

Sixth overall draft picks - Points leaders

The defensemen picked at 6 have historically been pretty good NHL defensemen. Add Seider to the list and you've got another solid impact player at that spot that is a defenseman. Then add Drysdale to the list who is also looking like a top 3 defender on his team and it's looking like you can make an argument that it is better to pick a defenseman at 6 in any given year than a forward at 6.

Sixth overall draft picks - Defensemen - Points leaders

Just a theory from a quick glance at the data, but I think that would be because the top 3 forwards are generally picked 1-3 while the top defensemen are picked 3-5 in a given draft, so the 2nd best defensemen in a draft go 6-8. Whereas forwards drafted at #6 are the 4th or 5th best forwards in their draft years. Maybe...drafting forwards at that spot in an average draft year is bad?

 

[Retire91]

I'm hoping for the best but my gut feels like we are never going to see that 6th overall potential. I have a bad feeling Zadina is going to leave an open gap in the core we need to fill. This will be a big year for him

 

[DetroitRed]

-Taking bad passes, or you could say taking GREAT rebounds - that's the OPTIMUM angle for a one-timer.

I'd like to do this drill while moving - move in, take the rebound and make that one-timer in the top corner - because that piece of ice in the slot you have to swoop into or fight for, you don't get to just stand there in-game.

 

[GettingYourMoms]

I could care less about Vrana goalscoring, but he has elite speed vs. Zadina. Vrana should put Zadina to same skating lessons he has taken, or something more.

When Zadina will get Elite speed, he has all the time and space then to become a great point-scorer. Before that, he will struggle.

Mark Stone is average skater and he is doing just fine, his game reminds me of Zadina.

 

[Henkka]

Mark Stone is average skater and he is doing just fine, his game reminds me of Zadina.

He was also a bad skater and did develop it to better level.

But Stone is 6'4, strong as a bull, and Zadina isn't.

They aren't comparables.

 

[GettingYourMoms]

He was also a bad skater and did develop it to better level.

But Stone is 6'4, strong as a bull, and Zadina isn't.

They aren't comparables.

but Zadina is not even bad skater lol

 

[golffuul]

He was also a bad skater and did develop it to better level.

But Stone is 6'4, strong as a bull, and Zadina isn't.

They aren't comparables.

Stone was also pretty soft the first couple years in the league. Got rocked ALOT in his first couple years with Ottawa

 

[Henkka]

Stone was also pretty soft the first couple years in the league. Got rocked ALOT in his first couple years with Ottawa

He was also a low round pick, why are we talking about him?

Why are we talking about him at Zadina thread? Not comparable players at all.

Zadina is like Kucherov from his, position, handness, mind, size, and style. Let's compare them.

 

[golffuul]

He was also a low round pick, why are we talking about him?

Why are we talking about him at Zadina thread? Not comparable players at all.

Zadina is like Kucherov from his, position, handness, mind, size, and style. Let's compare them.

That's fine. But someone else made the comparison and then you said they weren't comparable because of his size and build.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Maybe Vrana was a flash in the plan.
But he didn't need slick linemates to score.
AA scored 30 with Glendening and Nielsen.

Zadina's goal scoring woes are on Zadina.
He played 16:48 a game.
He played lots of PP time and he was the shooter on the powerplay.

At 5 on 5, he averaged 6.16 shots/60 - that ranks 12th among Wings forwards.
On the PP he averaged 12.7 shots/60 - second to mantha.

But he didn't take shots at 5 on 5.

AA was also a -45 and Zadina is never going to be a -45. AA was an uncoachable dips*#t and that got him bounced out of town. You don't win with that kind of player.

 

[Gniwder]

My impression from the video is that it's a drill where the opposing goalie makes the initial save and the rebound is then snap-shot'd over the netmiders shoulder as to simulate a game experience.

Makes sense to a certain extent, but if that's the drill, shouldn't he be closer to the crease? Goalies usually avoid kicking it out to that area.

But like I said, shooting a puck coming from that angle is the easiest shot, his problem is shooting it when it's coming from the side and he has to one time it. Practice your weakness, not your strength.

 

[Gniwder]

but Zadina is not even bad skater lol

He's not a good skater either. He's very mediocre in every aspect of his game, like a younger version of Gagner with better defense and no 8 pt game.

Zadina's goal scoring woes are on Zadina.

When you're shooting at a lower percentage than Helm's career average then you're gonna struggle. 6.2% last season.