Zach Parise makes good points

rt

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May 13, 2004
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He was not naive to this. He made such a huge deal about how educational this process was for him. He went on and on about how much he learned and how much perspective he gained. He talked at length about how in depth his representation went with him about all possible scenarios for contracts and franchises.

Does he really expect us to believe that he was not braced for the impending lock-out? Does he expect us to believe that he was not told to plan for his league to trend toward the industry standard of 50/50? Does he expect us to believe that he had no idea what potential impact that might have on his enormous contract just months later?

He needs to stop acting surprised. Most people can see straight through this routine.
 

Brick City

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May 21, 2012
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Its a little unethical what the owners are trying to do. I dont think I can remember an instance in any of the 4 major leagues where players were forced to give back money from existing contracts. Owners handed out those contracts they should honor them.

Was thinking about this - does anyone know how the NFL and NBA handled their deals (I am assuming their players' shares went down to 50/50)?
 

moosehead81

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Jan 7, 2012
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Some of the rhetoric here is beyond belief. Forget about the dollar amounts which obviously seem obscene to some of you. The bottom line is that Parise (and Suter) put themselves on the market to get the best salary they could; they signed supposedly legal contracts in good faith and now their employer does not want to honour those contracts? I'd be pissed off to, whether it was for $70,000 per year or $10,000,000 per year. Give your heads a shake!
 

pucka lucka

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Apr 7, 2010
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Some of the rhetoric here is beyond belief. Forget about the dollar amounts which obviously seem obscene to some of you. The bottom line is that Parise (and Suter) put themselves on the market to get the best salary they could; they signed supposedly legal contracts in good faith and now their employer does not want to honour those contracts? I'd be pissed off to, whether it was for $70,000 per year or $10,000,000 per year. Give your heads a shake!

You are so completely wrong. All the information is here, read it.
 

Bruin4Life

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All I read from those statements is "Damn, now I can't Gomez my contract for 10-15 years"
 

SuperUnknown

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There is no way I, or anyone here, would accept a 24% cut, followed by another 12% 5 yrs later - granted their average wage has drastically improved.

This is false though. When did Parise ever accept a 24% cut? Never. Some players did, those who had contracts back in 2004-2005 and are still on that contract. Otherwise, over the course of 2004-2005 to today, the players didn't cut their salaries, they raised them quite a bit.

With an escrow clawback, and 5% growth, players stand to lose 12% of this year (potentially). I didn't hear them cry when the owners had to pony up for the last escrow payment (paying them more last year than what they signed for) yet now the owners tell them it's their turn to skip a bit for a year and suddenly it's terrible.

The facts are that for a player with a current 5 year contract, considering normal growth that both the NHL and PA seem to agree to, they will lose about 4% of their money. Then in 5 years, they'll be able to sign a contract with a raise of 11% over today's value (at 50-50).

So if your employer told you that over the next five years you'd have to lose 4% of your wage, but then after that you'd get 11% more than your pre-cut wage, would it be that drastic? Especially if you were making at least 50% more than the next employer would give you for the same services?

Players are too dumb to do the math themselves, but the offer with an escrow clawback, even going 50-50 the first year is only 4% cut over a five year lifespan, plus before the next negociations (which the players should want later than earlier), they'll be earning collectively at least 10% more than they do now at 57-43.

Obviously, they'd be earning even more if they could keep 57-43, but to only want to earn and earn when you're already paid quite a bit more than you would outside the NHL is a prime example of greed.

If Parise accepted the 50-50 offer, he would "lose" about $2M on his $100M contract. Is that really worth skipping a year where he'd earn $7M and crying like a baby about it??? If he really wanted to play, he'd view the $2M loss as a small part of his large contract to help the league get even more competitive and grow earnings even faster. But noooooo.... he NEEDS that $2M out of his $100M deal, otherwise he won't be able to feed his dog.

How any fan can stand up for those mathematically challenged losers is beyond me.

Edit: Plus...if the NHL actually beats the 5% growth in the next years of his contract, Parise could end up earning more than his $100M contract over its life time, even at a 50-50 share...
 

Paul4587

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Jan 26, 2006
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Parise is right, not that many on these boards would agree with him. The owners put themselves into the mess they're in right now by handing out all the ridiculous contracts in the first place. Seems pretty unfair for a player to sign a deal when the owners have absolutely no intention of paying the full amount.
 

SuperUnknown

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Parise is right, not that many on these boards would agree with him. The owners put themselves into the mess they're in right now by handing out all the ridiculous contracts in the first place. Seems pretty unfair for a player to sign a deal when the owners have absolutely no intention of paying the full amount.

Owners are in this mess because in 2004-2005, they didn't demand from the players a 50-50 split.

Since players and owners share revenue, individual contracts have nothing to do with the total amount being paid out to players. Players are paid 57% of revenues whether they all sign $1M or $10M contracts... What can owners do to reduce the payout from 57% to something more manageable like 50%? Even if they sign players to lower salaries each, then they need to put the difference in escrow which then goes back to the players. The only way for them to get out of this mess is to reduce the share going to players, which they are trying to do right now.

You can't fault the owners for using the CBA to stop the "mess" and at the same time say they should pay the players. In effect, continuing with 57% going to the players would be to "stay in the mess they're in".

As to being unfair to the players, asking a potential $2M reduction from a $100M contract doesn't seem that bad to me, especially since later on through escrow the player could get it back anyway.
 

squidz*

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If Parise accepted the 50-50 offer, he would "lose" about $2M on his $100M contract. Is that really worth skipping a year where he'd earn $7M and crying like a baby about it??? If he really wanted to play, he'd view the $2M loss as a small part of his large contract to help the league get even more competitive and grow earnings even faster. But noooooo.... he NEEDS that $2M out of his $100M deal, otherwise he won't be able to feed his dog.

How any fan can stand up for those mathematically challenged losers is beyond me.

Edit: Plus...if the NHL actually beats the 5% growth in the next years of his contract, Parise could end up earning more than his $100M contract over its life time, even at a 50-50 share...

Not quite. If Parise accepted the 50-50 offer (without the make whole provisions) he's lose out on $200k-$240k in year 1 and likely less (if anything) in further years of the deal. Escrow clawbacks are calculated on that year's salary and after signing bonuses. Parise stands to earn $12MM in 2012-2013, but has already received $10MM via signing bonus. That means if he suffers the 12% pay cut the PA has decried (it's really closer to 10% after real league-wide salary totals are factored in) he'd lose out on 12% of $2MM which is $240k. If revenues rise sufficiently in year two, there would be no further salary reduction. Even if they stagnate, the reduction would be at most equal to that first amount. That $240k is only 0.24% of the deal he signed. Even looking at just the single season, he'd lose only 2% of that year's salary.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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...Awesome case of "good points brought up by the worst possible person".

But, hey Zach...

You hate the (or your) owner?
You hate Betteman?

Play up until 2014, score the GWG in Sochi Olympics, then retire in disgust. And royally screw the Wild in the process.

Of course, you'll turn down more than 50 millions. But hey... you're disgusted by the business, aren't you?
 

squidz*

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Parise is right, not that many on these boards would agree with him. The owners put themselves into the mess they're in right now by handing out all the ridiculous contracts in the first place. Seems pretty unfair for a player to sign a deal when the owners have absolutely no intention of paying the full amount.

The "ridiculous contracts" have little to no effect upon the team financials. The players are paid the same amount of money whether teams spend to (or using these contracts, over) the cap or the floor. The league dislikes these contracts because of their effects upon parity and competitive fairness between teams. There's next to no impact on the actual economic situation of any team because of them.
 

CerebralGenesis

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Zach is only concerned about the money he's going to be making on the onset of his frontloaded deal?

Color me super shocked.
 

zytz

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Ben Goessling ‏@BenGoesslingPP
Zach Parise was pretty fired up about the state of NHL labor negotiations today -- especially when it came to his own deal. #MNWild

Ben Goessling ‏@BenGoesslingPP
Parise: "I'll tell you what: On July 1, it wasn't us saying we want long-term deals. The league keeps talking about negotiating..." (1/2)

Ben Goessling ‏@BenGoesslingPP
Parise "...in good faith. Is that negotiating in good faith when these owners offer all this money, knowing they're not going to pay it?"

Ben Goessling ‏@BenGoesslingPP
Parise: "It was 10, 12, 13 years from a lot of teams. If they want to call (Ryan Suter and me) the poster boys, that's fine."


https://twitter.com/BenGoesslingPP
He makes good points, seems pretty messed up to offer these deals and then not try to pay them

I'm mostly with the owners, but this I agree with.
 

SuperUnknown

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Not quite. If Parise accepted the 50-50 offer (without the make whole provisions) he's lose out on $200k-$240k in year 1 and likely less (if anything) in further years of the deal. Escrow clawbacks are calculated on that year's salary and after signing bonuses. Parise stands to earn $12MM in 2012-2013, but has already received $10MM via signing bonus. That means if he suffers the 12% pay cut the PA has decried (it's really closer to 10% after real league-wide salary totals are factored in) he'd lose out on 12% of $2MM which is $240k. If revenues rise sufficiently in year two, there would be no further salary reduction. Even if they stagnate, the reduction would be at most equal to that first amount. That $240k is only 0.24% of the deal he signed. Even looking at just the single season, he'd lose only 2% of that year's salary.

So Parise doesn't even stand to lose 1% of his contract if he was to sign the NHL offer and he has the guts to complain? :loony:
 

squidz*

Guest
So Parise doesn't even stand to lose 1% of his contract if he was to sign the NHL offer and he has the guts to complain? :loony:

It's worth questioning whether he knows that or not. Remember, these are hockey players, not financiers. For the most part, what they know about their contracts, pay, and the effects of these negotiations is simply what they've been told by their agent or the PA. When you look at the things that Allan Walsh has been saying, it's hard to question whether these players understand how much any of this stands to cost them. If your agent and union tell you this is going to cost you 12% of your salary, and you know you're signed for $98MM, what conclusion do you think you'll reach?
 

Cawz

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Can I ask...how do we know that the owners signed these contracts expecting not to pay it out in full and not that the owners signed these contracts because they were given a window of opportunity to improve their team and at the time they did what they needed to do to get the deal done.

Players are saying that the owners signed these deals knowing full well that they were going to fight to have the salary reduced. Well why should the player not take any onus on signing the contract? Was he forced to sign? He did know that the CBA was ending in September, right? What was stopping Parise from saying 'hey, I'm going to wait until the new CBA is in place before I sign somewhere so at least I know that I'm getting a fair value that won't be rolled back'? I could just as well accuse Parise of negotiating hefty bonuses up front because he knew that this was going to happen and wanted to be prepared for it. Parise signed because he was looking out for his best interests first. The guy who signed him did so because at the time, he was also looking out for his best interests. Why is okay for Parise and not his owner?

Exactly. He knew full well that the owners were looking for a lower linked percentage. The contract was signing with all parties knowing full well that it was a relative amount to a to-be-determined percentage. I feel sorry for the people who are fooled by this, and annoyed by the people who arent but still argue it.
 

battlingBard56

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May 30, 2011
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...Awesome case of "good points brought up by the worst possible person".

But, hey Zach...

You hate the (or your) owner?
You hate Betteman?

Play up until 2014, score the GWG in Sochi Olympics, then retire in disgust. And royally screw the Wild in the process.

Of course, you'll turn down more than 50 millions. But hey... you're disgusted by the business, aren't you?

I absolutely agree with this, as well as the rest of your post. Took the words right out of my mouth.
 

Fugu

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Nov 26, 2004
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The other side of the coin here is that the NHLPA exercised their right to increase the salary cap this summer also knowing full well that a new CBA was coming.

The cap is dictated by HRR. Exercising the escalator in no way changes the share the players will receive.

They will get X% of total audited/actual HRR.



Zach Parise has already been paid $10M and will be paid $10M more next July and $5M the July after.

Probably shouldn't be involved in this in any way. Especially with the silly "50-50" that came out today. Deals like his make it impossible.

His signing bonus is also subject to escrow. There is no getting around linkage.



Unbelievable responses in this thread.

Will the fans actually cheer these guys on after this ends?
 

Bourne Endeavor

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Apr 6, 2009
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Okay, Parise. Spin this scenario for me. The owners all agreed to not exceed a fixed amount, say 35m over five years (7m per). Would you...

A) Cheer them on for good financial management.
B) Cite them for collusion.

What's that? You do not have an answer? Don't worry, we already know what would happen. So do kindly shut the hell up.
 

KaylaJ

i bent my wookie
Mar 12, 2009
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Was thinking about this - does anyone know how the NFL and NBA handled their deals (I am assuming their players' shares went down to 50/50)?

NBA from ESPN:

Revenue split

• 2005 CBA: Players receive 57 percent of Basketball Related Income (BRI).

• 2011 CBA: Players receive 51.15 percent of BRI in 2011-12. In later seasons players receive 49 to 51 percent of BRI (50 percent, plus or minus 60.5 percent of the amount by which BRI exceeds or falls short of projections); 1 percent of BRI (from the players' share) is used to fund a new pool for post-career benefits.

• Who benefits? This is the biggest win for the owners in this agreement. After losing $370 million, $340 million and $300 million in the past three seasons under the previous CBA, the league entered negotiations looking for a fundamental reset of the NBA's economic system -- and got it. In addition, players will lose approximately 20 percent of their 2011-12 salaries -- a result of the games missed due to the lockout.


Escrow

• 2005 CBA: 8 percent (in 2010-11) withheld to ensure players receive no more than the agreed-to revenue split. If escrow withholding is insufficient, salaries are reduced the following season to compensate.

• 2011 CBA: 10 percent withheld in every season. If the escrow withholding is insufficient, the shortfall is taken out of the players' post-career benefits pool. Salaries are not adjusted the following season.

• Who benefits? The players win here by getting the league to agree not to take any shortfall from their salaries the following season. Since there will be no rollback of existing salaries, the escrow system will likely be stretched to its limits in the early years of this agreement, and the players' salary losses are capped at 10 percent no matter what happens.



And other tidbits on how the new compares to the old
 

NJDevs26

Once upon a time...
Mar 21, 2007
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He was not naive to this. He made such a huge deal about how educational this process was for him. He went on and on about how much he learned and how much perspective he gained. He talked at length about how in depth his representation went with him about all possible scenarios for contracts and franchises.

Does he really expect us to believe that he was not braced for the impending lock-out? Does he expect us to believe that he was not told to plan for his league to trend toward the industry standard of 50/50? Does he expect us to believe that he had no idea what potential impact that might have on his enormous contract just months later?

He needs to stop acting surprised. Most people can see straight through this routine.

lol, he demanded - and got - $25 million lockout protected dollars (signing bonuses over the next three years) including $10 million this year. Him, Suter, Weber, etc getting those huge signing bonuses were not by accident. If there's anyone that can't claim ignorance over what was going to happen. it's Zach.
 

hoockeyrocks

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Dec 17, 2011
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fact is alot of people in different industries have given up money they were supposed to earn after new CBAs! im glad that hockey players are getting the taste of the real world like the rest of us
 

LickTheEnvelope

Time to Retool... again...
Dec 16, 2008
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Ben Goessling ‏@BenGoesslingPP
Zach Parise was pretty fired up about the state of NHL labor negotiations today -- especially when it came to his own deal. #MNWild

Ben Goessling ‏@BenGoesslingPP
Parise: "I'll tell you what: On July 1, it wasn't us saying we want long-term deals. The league keeps talking about negotiating..." (1/2)

Ben Goessling ‏@BenGoesslingPP
Parise "...in good faith. Is that negotiating in good faith when these owners offer all this money, knowing they're not going to pay it?"

Ben Goessling ‏@BenGoesslingPP
Parise: "It was 10, 12, 13 years from a lot of teams. If they want to call (Ryan Suter and me) the poster boys, that's fine."


https://twitter.com/BenGoesslingPP
He makes good points, seems pretty messed up to offer these deals and then not try to pay them

He also got a bazillion years when it's likely that the new CBA will have a limit on years...
 

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