Zach Hyman is good at Ice Hockey

[KDOTO]

Hyman is what he is, a bottom 6 player that has some decent chemistry with Matthews. Fans shouldn't be mad at him. He does his best in the role he is given. Hopefully the time will come when he is demoted but tbh, I'm not sure that will happen regardless of the personnel we have on the ice. Might as well get use to it and thank the Lord we have a transcendent player like Matthews. Could you image Eichel or Laine being forced to play with Hyman as our first line? *Shudder* At least Matthews passes to Hyman, I feel like a guy like Eichel wouldn't even consider it. And we all know how reluctant Nylander is to pass to Hyman at times.

Really im not mad. More curious to see them with someone else. Someone with skills. Like a nemastikov in Tampa, he is put with kuch and stamkos. He not always with them, when the line struggles he gets moved off and others are tried.

How is Hyman never off that line. During Mathews slump he is the one consistently there. When Nylander is struggling, do they try a Hyman switch out, nope, it's Nylander that gets moved off. How about this, move Mathews off that line instead, since Hyman isn't going anywhere.

 

[KDOTO]

Hyman is 71st in ES TOI/G among NHL Forwards, and tied for 69th in ESP among NHL Forwards. He's deployed like a mid/low-tier 1st-Liner 5v5 and he's producing like a mid/low-tier 1st-Liner 5v5 - Really don't understand what the issue is.

He's still the highest scoring player in the entire NHL without any PP points.

Among guys around him who is playing on the first line with the teams two best players.

 

[Liminality]

Matthews scores in return

Matthews taps home Hyman's feed

Hyman isn't a useless 4th liner. I already showed his goals this year and here are some of his assists, they're not all gimmes from Matthews or Nylander.

This isn't to prop up Hyman to some super star player but people just choose to tell themselves that Hyman has no hockey talent whatsoever.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I know the numbers, all the number tells me is what I already knew. Anyone playing with Mathews and Nylander will produce at that rate. I want more, he is put in prime position 5 on 5, so he will collect points. Will go through this season games again to see what he contribute to each goal.

140 games of hyman on that line, no number gonna change the player I see in front of me. How many other first liner gets zero pp time. Why is that, because he not good enough. How many with his skill set gets put on a line with a teams two best players.

What about that post contradicts my post. I never said he's not getting points. Im saying anyone will get them points. Matt Martin and uncle Leo would prolly get 25 to 30 points playing on that line. They both have 15 and 11 respectively playing 3rd and 4th line minutes.

My post was talking about his skills, his play in the offensive zone, his inability to shoot or pass. To make plays for the other two guys on that line. Nothing in the post you qouted says other wise. If you have info or evidence to refute my opinion on him Im all ears. You have over 140 game tape to find them.

How do you know that anyone playing with Mathews and Nylander will produce at that rate? There's also more to player assessment than sorting points, I'll guess that you understand that but I don't see you factoring in his defensive play so that's missing a big part of the picture.

So you're going to go over the season again zeroing in on Hyman? That's twice you've told us that now, you sound like you're obsessed. I suggest you take a step back, relax and just watch the games. It's been a great season and who knows what more awaits us? I hope your obsession with Hyman isn't preventing you from enjoying the season because it's been pretty great so far. And Hyman's been good, he really has.

 

[KDOTO]

I've said it before but his ES production and ES production of his line is an indication that he's not as big of an anchor on that line as he is being portrayed. And how much more production are you looking to get by putting another player on there? Would that takeaway production from another line? Babs' wants to have 4 good lines, this is a product of it.

Now I think they can and will upgrade over time with a player that has a bit more skill and a better shot but Hyman flanking Matthews and Nylander isn't among the team's biggest issues at the moment.

Yes but is that because of Hyman or inspite of Hyman. Not saying he doesn't do what he is suppose to but a line with Mathews and Nylander and whom ever on it will produce in even strength play. Mathews himself is just so good in 5v5 play that it's inevitable.

In baseball Hyman would be an easy war player to find each off season. I would say in hockey too.

But yes as long as we're winning there is no issue right now. I just hope when that line really struggles, Babcock trys something different then the usual Nylander down and brown up.

 

[KDOTO]

How do you know that anyone playing with Mathews and Nylander will produce at that rate? There's also more to player assessment than sorting points, I'll guess that you understand that but I don't see you factoring in his defensive play so that's missing a big part of the picture.

So you're going to go over the season again zeroing in on Hyman? That's twice you've told us that now, you sound like you're obsessed. I suggest you take a step back, relax and just watch the games. It's been a great season and who knows what more awaits us? I hope your obsession with Hyman isn't preventing you from enjoying the season because it's been pretty great so far. And Hyman's been good, he really has.

I am enjoying the season and no I'm not obsessed lol. I like tracking numbers and stuff been doing it since I was a kid. I watch and apoint a point scale on plays, it's a weird hobby I know. I just do it for fun and go through my data on my own.

Trust me I love my team, I use to leave parties just to listen to them on the car radio back in the day. I went through like all of us our shiety year. So I'm happy and having alot fun this season because I can see where we are heading with this group. Cheers

 

[KDOTO]

How do you know that anyone playing with Mathews and Nylander will produce at that rate? There's also more to player assessment than sorting points, I'll guess that you understand that but I don't see you factoring in his defensive play so that's missing a big part of the picture.

So you're going to go over the season again zeroing in on Hyman? That's twice you've told us that now, you sound like you're obsessed. I suggest you take a step back, relax and just watch the games. It's been a great season and who knows what more awaits us? I hope your obsession with Hyman isn't preventing you from enjoying the season because it's been pretty great so far. And Hyman's been good, he really has.

And yes I look at all of that, it's not that he has not been good. He has been fine is the word I hear most and I would agree. Imo I believe that line can be better. Mathews good enough defensivly that hyman is more a luxury on that line.

As to the points claim, I just see it in his play. I can't imagine another player in his role not being able to produce above his rates. But your correct I don't know and I don't think I will find out for a while.

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

Hopefully you're a golfer or play a similar sport. When you have a good round of golf do you stop changing your swing and not try to get better? That's all I have. You either believe that it's too risky to try and improve or you don't.

Two things:

Have you heard of The Peter Principal? If not, Google it.

Have you heard of Tiger Woods. He's a former great golfer who kept changing his swing to try to make it better. With mixed success.....

 

[Lemontree]

Two things:

Have you heard of The Peter Principal? If not, Google it.

Have you heard of Tiger Woods. He's a former great golfer who kept changing his swing to try to make it better. With mixed success.....

Tiger changed his swing due to severe injuries and pain in his leg and back. He did not change his swing just to test out which one would have more success, it was out of necassasity.

 

[KDOTO]

So now you personally know how Matthews and Nylander feel about having Hyman on their line? They would miss Hyman, since he does alot of things well that help the TEAM win. So when the Leafs were winning without Matthews in the lineup this year, it indicates that Matthews is essentially useless to the team?

Keep living in your fantasy hockey world, in real life hockey this is how things work. Winning trumps all.

You can see it in their play and communication. I don't think they mind him but also believe they prolly wondered what it would be like with another skilled player like them.

Watch them during a game, it's mostly Mathews and Nylander talking to each other and looking for one another on the ice. Hyman is rarely involved. On the bench you will see them two using hand motion to point plays out while Hyman is just sitting there again not involved most of the time. It's so noticeable and apparent that they see what alot of people see.

Yes your correct I'm quite sure they appreciate his work ethic, and what he does on the line, I do to. Just like Im sure they see his lack of skill to run with them in alot of plays.

All im saying is when the line struggles hard next time, try moving off Hyman instead of Willy. It wouldn't hurt right. Next year I hope Babcock gives a clean slate to all line combo because there will be alot of new faces.

 

[KDOTO]

AM/WN/PM

This line has been thrown out a few times when we're down late, and they've rarely generated anything. I would like to see it tried a few more times as well, but I honestly don't know if they mesh in terms of playstyle.

Kads/MM/Kap

I like the sound of it, but you're now forcing one of Marner or Kappy to play on their off wing. You could also see a decline in Kappy's play, due to the fact Naz is usually sent out against the opponent's best. It's also a very small line, which some would see as a negative.

Bozak/JVR/Brown

So you want to tinker with our BEST line, but leave our 3rd line completely alone? This confuses me, but I guess they've been playing relatively well recently.

Komo/Hyman/Aaltonen

This is now a black hole offensively, even more than it is right now, according to your perception of Hyman. How many minutes would you want this line playing every night?

There are positives and negatives to every lineup. The fact is Babcock has a certain opinion of what constitutes a good line, and it isn't likely to change. And again, you're complaining about a player on our most consistently productive line. I feel the need to point out that there are simply bigger fish to fry.

I like his lineup he has its what I aee but with out altonnen and with goat instead.

Mathews with Marleau has not played anywhere consistently together to make a conclusion. Throwing them out there late In game or after a pk is not the same as a 10 or 20 game stretch.

The kadri line is fine. Not small, it's bigger then Tampa top line. I see no problem. As for kapenen I can't see it being any worse for him then being on the 4th.

Bozie line is meh, 2/3 are out the door so will deal with it later.

4th line brings what it should, hustle, hits, and working to tilt the ice for the other lines. Offense is secondary and pretty sure it would be the same output as it is now.

So overall I think it will work, might be even be optimal for us. Also not saying to do it now or when we're winning. I'm talking about when we are losing and the lines are struggling. Would Babcock do it then, prolly not.

It will be the usual Nylander demoted, marner demoted, komo back with kad. Kappy sits for Martin. Brown up with Mathews and bozie line stays the same. No wonder Babcock loves Hyman, they think the same. Always doing the same things over and over.

 

[Nithoniniel]

First....I think it's absurd to try to use Hyman's statistics as proof of how good he is when he's playing with 2 offensive stars..
Any winger on that line will automatically get points..goals and assists..because there are so many opportunities.

Your mistake here is the belief that third links on a line with two offensive stars automatically get lots of points. That is not true. I've shown the numbers before, where Hyman's production is actually among the top end for players in similar situations. Those around him are established high-end players like Oshie. Many produce worse.

That's the main problem with how a lot of Hyman-critics view this. They think anyone in similar situations put up a lot of points. That's not true, if you do the research. They think that the 40+ points without PP that Hyman is pacing for is nothing special. It is actually very good. A lot of top-end forwards end up in that range.

Stop with the numbers and just watch the guy play.

Everybody watches him play. There's also no reason to choose, doing one doesn't preclude you from doing the other.

And what's this stuff about if "it aint broke"? We don't know and will never know if it's "broke" because no one else has ever been tried there....it could very well be "broke" right now, but we can't know.

You think one of the best lines in hockey is actually broken? Do you honestly think that's plausible?

And what if....what if...the Matthews line with Kapanen really did well....

You could say what if about pretty much any combination of players there is, but that doesn't mean that we should try it out. We have four well-functioning lines right now. If there's one thing I'd change, it's probably switch places on Brown and Kapanen.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I am enjoying the season and no I'm not obsessed lol. I like tracking numbers and stuff been doing it since I was a kid. I watch and apoint a point scale on plays, it's a weird hobby I know. I just do it for fun and go through my data on my own.

Trust me I love my team, I use to leave parties just to listen to them on the car radio back in the day. I went through like all of us our shiety year. So I'm happy and having alot fun this season because I can see where we are heading with this group. Cheers

Oh yeah, we're definitely going places. Cheers!

And yes I look at all of that, it's not that he has not been good. He has been fine is the word I hear most and I would agree. Imo I believe that line can be better. Mathews good enough defensivly that hyman is more a luxury on that line.

As to the points claim, I just see it in his play. I can't imagine another player in his role not being able to produce above his rates. But your correct I don't know and I don't think I will find out for a while.

See the post below (excerpt). I can't remember when and where this was posted but it's been shown you're wrong. This about it this way, if you're right that would mean that Matthews and Nylander are already so good, that they could play with a random player and be almost the best line in hockey. That just doesn't make sense, they're good but they're not that good.

Your mistake here is the belief that third links on a line with two offensive stars automatically get lots of points. That is not true. I've shown the numbers before, where Hyman's production is actually among the top end for players in similar situations. Those around him are established high-end players like Oshie. Many produce worse.

That's the main problem with how a lot of Hyman-critics view this. They think anyone in similar situations put up a lot of points. That's not true, if you do the research. They think that the 40+ points without PP that Hyman is pacing for is nothing special. It is actually very good. A lot of top-end forwards end up in that range.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Really im not mad. More curious to see them with someone else. Someone with skills. Like a nemastikov in Tampa, he is put with kuch and stamkos. He not always with them, when the line struggles he gets moved off and others are tried.

How is Hyman never off that line. During Mathews slump he is the one consistently there. When Nylander is struggling, do they try a Hyman switch out, nope, it's Nylander that gets moved off. How about this, move Mathews off that line instead, since Hyman isn't going anywhere.

I'm with you 100%. I've been saying Kapanen can do just about everything as good as Hyman while doing most things much better. Just saying that at this point it doesn't seem like things will change so we should just be thankful that it at the least works. Just thinking of an Eichel-Hyman or Laine-Hyman duo scares me. Matthews-Hyman is adequate, even if there are some better alternatives.

 

[KDOTO]

Oh yeah, we're definitely going places. Cheers!



See the post below (excerpt). I can't remember when and where this was posted but it's been shown you're wrong. This about it this way, if you're right that would mean that Matthews and Nylander are already so good, that they could play with a random player and be almost the best line in hockey. That just doesn't make sense, they're good but they're not that good.

That goes back to my earlier post. I've seen the numbers and the comparison. The numbers wont ever convince me because i have videos of all his plays and touches.

I am doing my data on him right now. My way is kind of based on figure skating scoring, so yes a little subjective but I'm gonna keep it honest. I'm comparing it to his line mates right now but I will look at his comparable like oshi.

The way I do it it is players gets points for what they should of done, difficulty of the play they make, executions of shots, passes Also difficulty of shots and passes, puck protection, control entry, puck retrieval, plays under pressure, quick decision plays, net presence, board battles wins and losses, take away/give away, creating plays, how difficult the play, knowing where to go, finding holes for passes, defensive plays and a few more I want to add.

Each play can gain 1 to 3 points for execution and difficulty and a minus for not done right . So even a pass that gets broken up still earn points as it was the correct play and etc.
End of each period I add the positive/negative scores all up and at the end of the game I get a total score. That will be my rating for the player and so on divide by game play I get his average.

As you can see points accumulation will not be used in the process. So far I've done one period of the Florida game and the result is Mathews a plus 17 in my rating score and Hyman is a plus five. I will probly do 10 games of mathews, Nylander, hyman and as you mention oshi to see what happens.

 

[saltming]

I'm trying man. I really am. I can't give you proof that things will get better if Hyman is replaced in exactly the same way that you can't prove things won't get better.

Your opinion is that chemistry is fickle. Matthews was hurt for 10 games. Did they lose their chemistry?

What if I said that I'm waiting for you to prove to me that they will lose their chemistry or that things won't improve overall for the team. See. You can't but more importantly no one can prove that things will get better or worse even Babcock without trying it. Note it was tried for a game and Martin did great.

So we are down to some of us thinking that a couple of weeks of experimenting is worth the risk and some others thinking that even though they didn't lose their chemistry when Matthews went down that this time they might and it's too risky.

Hopefully you're a golfer or play a similar sport. When you have a good round of golf do you stop changing your swing and not try to get better? That's all I have. You either believe that it's too risky to try and improve or you don't.

It did tale Matthews a few games to get back to where they line seemed cohesive so I will say year there was a temporary loss there. And I agree with you I cannot prove that a change would decrease chemistry or make the team worse. That is not my argument. I'm saying they have it now. It's working so don't mess with it because you don't know what will happen from there that's all.
When the line starts to struggle for a time then I will be calling for a mix up too.

As for golf tiger got messed up changing his swing. Trying to get better involves many aspect and there is no set formula.

 

[Ratboy]

Hyman is on the 1st line, therefore he is judged as a first liner. I find his skill set to be lacking.

On the 3rd line it would be adequate.

Whatever. Poor Matthya and Nylandya.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

He looks like a mediocre player at best currently. Imagine if he wasn't playing with the teams two best players? Yikes!

 

[Gary Nylund]

Tiger changed his swing due to severe injuries and pain in his leg and back. He did not change his swing just to test out which one would have more success, it was out of necassasity.

I'm pretty sure that when Tiger won his first major (by 12 strokes LOL) he was young and healthy. He started working on a new swing right away despite that because he's always been obsessed with being better, no matter how good he already was.

That goes back to my earlier post. I've seen the numbers and the comparison. The numbers wont ever convince me because i have videos of all his plays and touches.

I am doing my data on him right now. My way is kind of based on figure skating scoring, so yes a little subjective but I'm gonna keep it honest. I'm comparing it to his line mates right now but I will look at his comparable like oshi.

The way I do it it is players gets points for what they should of done, difficulty of the play they make, executions of shots, passes Also difficulty of shots and passes, puck protection, control entry, puck retrieval, plays under pressure, quick decision plays, net presence, board battles wins and losses, take away/give away, creating plays, how difficult the play, knowing where to go, finding holes for passes, defensive plays and a few more I want to add.

Each play can gain 1 to 3 points for execution and difficulty and a minus for not done right . So even a pass that gets broken up still earn points as it was the correct play and etc.
End of each period I add the positive/negative scores all up and at the end of the game I get a total score. That will be my rating for the player and so on divide by game play I get his average.

As you can see points accumulation will not be used in the process. So far I've done one period of the Florida game and the result is Mathews a plus 17 in my rating score and Hyman is a plus five. I will probly do 10 games of mathews, Nylander, hyman and as you mention oshi to see what happens.

Wow, you really are obsessed. Hey have fun, good luck and try to forget everything you know about Hyman going in, being objective is always difficult.

 

[Shanty]

This really reminds me of the Bozak - Kessel situation. Bozak is not a first line player, hence he should not be playing with Kessel.

Let's just ignore all of the context surrounding that situation and stick to the "Bozak sucks" talking point until we're purple in the face.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I am doing my data on him right now.

I appreciate the effort you put in here and it'll be interesting to see what you come up with, but I'm afraid it'll be hard to draw any conclusions from it. Ideally, you want to move towards as big of a sample size as possible while minimizing the influence of bias as much as possible. Your method relies on a really small sample size, and is utterly dependent on your bias.

 

[Gary Nylund]

This really reminds me of the Bozak - Kessel situation. Bozak is not a first line player, hence he should not be playing with Kessel.

Let's just ignore all of the context surrounding that situation and stick to the "Bozak sucks" talking point until we're purple in the face.

Nah. If this was like the Bozak situation you'd have people passionately arguing that Bozak>JVR/Marleau because he's playing on the top line.

 

[Shanty]

Nah. If this was like the Bozak situation you'd have people passionately arguing that Bozak>JVR/Marleau because he's playing on the top line.

Good point.

Does this mean we've improved or worsened as a fanbase?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Good point.

Does this mean we've improved or worsened as a fanbase?

Since I can't imagine this fanbase ever changing, I'd guess the answer would somehow have to be neither. Or maybe both? Don't ask me to show my work, the math for this one is way beyond me.

 

[saltming]

Since I can't imagine this fanbase ever changing, I'd guess the answer would somehow have to be neither. Or maybe both? Don't ask me to show my work, the math for this one is way beyond me.

I did it for you. The answer is 42