Zac Rinaldo (2013-14 season) -- Update Apr. 7, 2014: Suspended four games

[Cmoneyflyguy]

Betts could play wing, too. I still take Betts because he was flat out far superior to Rinaldo.

It's cool that Rinaldo does the hitting thing and all, but when was the last time it won the team the game or did anything but wow the crowd? His hit on Iginla didn't make the outcome better.

Zac has one dimension, and it's not exactly a useful dimension in the big picture. With his shortcomings he's far more likely to be a detriment in the playoffs than an asset, especially against the tougher teams.

Taking iginla off for 5 minutes is win - despite the outcome of the game.
To say that's not effective on Rinaldo's part is being obtuse.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Taking iginla off for 5 minutes is win - despite the outcome of the game.
To say that's not effective on Rinaldo's part is being obtuse.

That is entirely dependent on Iginla making a questionable decision that is ultimately beyond Rinaldo's control. How many other star players has Rinaldo fought?

Statistically, he remains the worst overall forward on the team. Hitting and agitation aren't enough to cancel that out, as fun as they are to watch.

 

[Cmoneyflyguy]

That is entirely dependent on Iginla making a questionable decision that is ultimately beyond Rinaldo's control. How many other star players has Rinaldo fought?

yeah, but he did fight. And he laid a huge legal hit. Even without a fight the hit was effective.

 

[Beef Invictus]

yeah, but he did fight. And he laid a huge legal hit. Even without a fight the hit was effective.

Effective for what? Hindering someone briefly? It's a hit, not a goal.


This is what, the first star player who has fought him? That's a 1 in 161 game event.


Zac is entertaining and I'd rather keep him in our system than have him elsewhere hitting our guys, but let's not get carried away here. There are more effective players out there, and it's a bit ridiculous for someone to say they would take Rinaldo over Betts in pretty much any situation. I would take pre-concussions Powe over Rinaldo too. He could at least play D and PK, as well as throw hits.

 

[Cmoneyflyguy]

Effective for what? Hindering someone briefly? It's a hit, not a goal.

So now hits aren't effective? This is a silly argument.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So now hits aren't effective? This is a silly argument.

Hello Strawman. Find where I said they aren't effective .


Hits are effective, just like poking the puck away from a carrier is effective. But they aren't worth enough to make Rinaldo worth more than Betts when he was here.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Betts could play wing, too. I still take Betts because he was flat out far superior to Rinaldo.

That's true, but I still take Rinaldo on this team.

It's cool that Rinaldo does the hitting thing and all, but when was the last time it won the team the game or did anything but wow the crowd? His hit on Iginla didn't make the outcome better.

Zac has one dimension, and it's not exactly a useful dimension in the big picture. With his shortcomings he's far more likely to be a detriment in the playoffs than an asset, especially against the tougher teams.

That's easy to say because what Rinaldo brings isn't really evident on the scoresheet. There is no one else, with the exception of maybe Simmonds that plays with the intensity that Rinaldo does. He draws penalties (takes them too, obviously), gets guys agitated and off their games, gets the crowd fired up (which helps), and gets his team fired up.

Betts will provide more on the defensive side, 100%. No argument here. Not even close. But as one dimensional as Rinaldo is, so is Betts. It is a different dimension though. Betts dimension is defense, which helps the team for sure. But the team's fourth line is pretty solid on defense. It would be better defensively with Betts. Absolutely. But it would lack the intensity. You wouldn't have guys like Iginla making bad choices. You wouldn't have players having to look over their shoulders. It gets downplayed a lot, but when you have a guy like Rinaldo on your team, it makes it more difficult to play against. Having a guy like Betts does as well. But being that we have a guy like Adam Hall already on the 4th line, I'd take Rinaldo over Betts.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That's true, but I still take Rinaldo on this team.



That's easy to say because what Rinaldo brings isn't really evident on the scoresheet. There is no one else, with the exception of maybe Simmonds that plays with the intensity that Rinaldo does. He draws penalties (takes them too, obviously), gets guys agitated and off their games, gets the crowd fired up (which helps), and gets his team fired up.

Betts will provide more on the defensive side, 100%. No argument here. Not even close. But as one dimensional as Rinaldo is, so is Betts. It is a different dimension though. Betts dimension is defense, which helps the team for sure. But the team's fourth line is pretty solid on defense. It would be better defensively with Betts. Absolutely. But it would lack the intensity. You wouldn't have guys like Iginla making bad choices. You wouldn't have players having to look over their shoulders. It gets downplayed a lot, but when you have a guy like Rinaldo on your team, it makes it more difficult to play against. Having a guy like Betts does as well. But being that we have a guy like Adam Hall already on the 4th line, I'd take Rinaldo over Betts.

No, our 4th line isn't that good defensively. The 4th line Betts was on could face down any line in the league. Our current 4th line would (and does) get shredded by unfortunate matchups. Making our 4th line better defensively by replacing Rinaldo with Betts makes the team better overall.

We have plenty of "intensity" guys. Hartnell, Giroux, Simmonds, the Schenns, Downie. It's not exactly an area where the team is lacking. The several minutes of intensity Rinaldo brings is dwarfed by what they bring.

And, again, I love that people are pointing to the recent Iginla incident as this great plus. It's happened once in 161 games played. That's not impressive. We aren't talking about a common occurrence here.

 

[joez86]

Intimidation cannot be measured on any scoresheet, nor by any advanced stat.

And it alone can win a game. Now Rinaldo isn't King Kong or anything, but he definitely changes the feel and the emotional balance of the game, especially on home ice.

If he stays controlled, he could be very useful in the playoffs.

 

[Beef Invictus]

These are pro NHL players. They're only going to be so intimidated. These guys aren't that feeble mentally, that the guy who they might share the ice with for one or two shifts (if at all) will completely alter how they look at the game.


This isn't Lindros we're talking about here.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

No, our 4th line isn't that good defensively. The 4th line Betts was on could face down any line in the league. Our current 4th line would (and does) get shredded by unfortunate matchups. Making our 4th line better defensively by replacing Rinaldo with Betts makes the team better overall.

I didn't say our 4th line was better than it was when Betts was here, but it is fine. To the point that adding Betts while subtracting Rinaldo is not something I would do.

We have plenty of "intensity" guys. Hartnell, Giroux, Simmonds, the Schenns, Downie. It's not exactly an area where the team is lacking. The several minutes of intensity Rinaldo brings is dwarfed by what they bring.

Eh, not the same kind of intensity. Simmonds is the closest to Rinaldo in that department. While the others do their part, they are not the same kind of intensity that Rinaldo brings.

And, again, I love that people are pointing to the recent Iginla incident as this great plus. It's happened once in 161 games played. That's not impressive. We aren't talking about a common occurrence here.

He gets guys to take stupid penalties on a regular basis. He doesn't fight superstars on a regular basis, but he gets guys off their game.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I didn't say our 4th line was better than it was when Betts was here, but it is fine. To the point that adding Betts while subtracting Rinaldo is not something I would do.



Eh, not the same kind of intensity. Simmonds is the closest to Rinaldo in that department. While the others do their part, they are not the same kind of intensity that Rinaldo brings.



He gets guys to take stupid penalties on a regular basis. He doesn't fight superstars on a regular basis, but he gets guys off their game.

He has been drawing far fewer penalties this year. It's not really a "regular basis." It was on a "regular basis" last season, and that's it.

Simmonds is bringing his intensity onto the ice far more often and for more minutes than Rinaldo is. Overall, that makes his more valuable. Rinaldo just doesn't get enough ice time for his brand of intensity to have any noticeable impact on games, except in rare circumstances. This debate is beginning to fall into the comical "we need an enforcer because he'll be feared!" territory.

As for not adding Betts while subtracting Rinaldo...you're saying you don't want to make the team better. That's a weird stance to take.

 

[bauerhockey02]

Laperriere could fight and hit while also blocking shots. He brought an intensity and desire with the game where he could really inspire his teammates and was a warrior who could take a puck to the face and have teeth knocked out yet still return later in the game. Something similar to that is what we should be looking for on our fourth line to replace Rinaldo with.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I love what Rinaldo is capable of. But he just isn't a hockey player. Some of you folks have bought in a little too hard to the organization's inexplicable mania. I had fun watching him hit Iginla really hard and punch him. I would have had more fun watching him make one effective play with the puck during a game when the fourth line certainly had some possession time and opportunities.

I like hockey, and hitting, and fights. Rinaldo sucks at hockey. He is not worth having on the team. For the two times per season he might take a better player than himself off the ice? Yeah but how about we just get a guy who could score 4 goals?

 

[chupanibre]

I love what Rinaldo is capable of. But he just isn't a hockey player. Some of you folks have bought in a little too hard to the organization's inexplicable mania. I had fun watching him hit Iginla really hard and punch him. I would have had more fun watching him make one effective play with the puck during a game when the fourth line certainly had some possession time and opportunities.

I like hockey, and hitting, and fights. Rinaldo sucks at hockey. He is not worth having on the team. For the two times per season he might take a better player than himself off the ice? Yeah but how about we just get a guy who could score 4 goals?

I disagree, I don't think Rinaldo 'sucks' at hockey, he's not the best forward on the team by a long shot but he certainly doesn't suck.

I watch hockey not only for the skills but also for the big hits and the fights. All in all I think Rinaldo makes the games much more interesting with his hits, agitating and fights.

Without players like this the game would be BORING, if I wanted boring I'd watch the LA Kings play...

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

He has been drawing far fewer penalties this year. It's not really a "regular basis." It was on a "regular basis" last season, and that's it.

Simmonds is bringing his intensity onto the ice far more often and for more minutes than Rinaldo is. Overall, that makes his more valuable. Rinaldo just doesn't get enough ice time for his brand of intensity to have any noticeable impact on games, except in rare circumstances. This debate is beginning to fall into the comical "we need an enforcer because he'll be feared!" territory.

He's drawing penalties on a pretty regular basis. Not every shift but it is certainly noticeable. I agree Simmonds is definitely bringing intensity to the table on a level higher than most on the team, but you want more than just him. Giroux brings it, but not int he same way. Hartnell stirs the pot after the whistle and gets under guys skin, but doesn't throw the hits like Rinaldo. The rest of the guys on the team either bring the intensity in a different way or to a much smaller degree. You want energy players on your roster.

And the part of the argument regarding the intimidation factor is not laughable. Having a guy running around hitting everything that moves changes the way guys play. It makes them more cautious. It gets them annoyed and off their game. You see it all the time, not just with Rinaldo but other guys around the league.

As for not adding Betts while subtracting Rinaldo...you're saying you don't want to make the team better. That's a weird stance to take.

That is not the stance I am taking. Betts is a better defensive player. No doubt. But he doesn't bring the same thing that Rinaldo brings. I know, I know, intensity and sandpaper is worthless and we have other players that do it some times already, but when you are talking about a guy that plays 8 minutes per game, Rinaldo is a guy I would put on this team over Blair Betts ATM.

That being said, I'd take Blair Betts over Adam Hall any day of the week. I'd rather have Rinaldo and Betts on that line than Rinaldo and Hall, but I'd rather have Rinaldo and Hall over Hall and Betts.

Also I'd rather have Hall and Oates over both.

 

[joez86]

These are pro NHL players. They're only going to be so intimidated. These guys aren't that feeble mentally, that the guy who they might share the ice with for one or two shifts (if at all) will completely alter how they look at the game.


This isn't Lindros we're talking about here.

It isn't just about how Rinaldo's game affects the opposition, it is also about how Rinaldo's game affects the crowd and his teammates. The atmosphere of a game is different when you have Rinaldo doing his thing vs having Betts doing his thing. Depending on the particular team/game, one or the other could be more conducive to helping the team win.

 

[sa cyred]

He's drawing penalties on a pretty regular basis. Not every shift but it is certainly noticeable. I agree Simmonds is definitely bringing intensity to the table on a level higher than most on the team, but you want more than just him. Giroux brings it, but not int he same way. Hartnell stirs the pot after the whistle and gets under guys skin, but doesn't throw the hits like Rinaldo. The rest of the guys on the team either bring the intensity in a different way or to a much smaller degree. You want energy players on your roster.

And the part of the argument regarding the intimidation factor is not laughable. Having a guy running around hitting everything that moves changes the way guys play. It makes them more cautious. It gets them annoyed and off their game. You see it all the time, not just with Rinaldo but other guys around the league.



That is not the stance I am taking. Betts is a better defensive player. No doubt. But he doesn't bring the same thing that Rinaldo brings. I know, I know, intensity and sandpaper is worthless and we have other players that do it some times already, but when you are talking about a guy that plays 8 minutes per game, Rinaldo is a guy I would put on this team over Blair Betts ATM.

That being said, I'd take Blair Betts over Adam Hall any day of the week. I'd rather have Rinaldo and Betts on that line than Rinaldo and Hall, but I'd rather have Rinaldo and Hall over Hall and Betts.

Also I'd rather have Hall and Oates over both.

I am little confused. Are you valuing intensity over defensive play? Those 8 minutes that Rinaldo is out there, isnt it more important to prevent a goal then to hit people to bring intensity?

I wont lie i think you are the first person to say you'd rather have Rinaldo over Betts

 

[sa cyred]

It isn't just about how Rinaldo's game affects the opposition, it is also about how Rinaldo's game affects the crowd and his teammates. The atmosphere of a game is different when you have Rinaldo doing his thing vs having Betts doing his thing. Depending on the particular team/game, one or the other could be more conducive to helping the team win.

I will try to find the article, but there is a study that shows that fighting/this intensity thing actually doesnt affect the game as much as people think.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He's drawing penalties on a pretty regular basis. Not every shift but it is certainly noticeable. I agree Simmonds is definitely bringing intensity to the table on a level higher than most on the team, but you want more than just him. Giroux brings it, but not int he same way. Hartnell stirs the pot after the whistle and gets under guys skin, but doesn't throw the hits like Rinaldo. The rest of the guys on the team either bring the intensity in a different way or to a much smaller degree. You want energy players on your roster.

And the part of the argument regarding the intimidation factor is not laughable. Having a guy running around hitting everything that moves changes the way guys play. It makes them more cautious. It gets them annoyed and off their game. You see it all the time, not just with Rinaldo but other guys around the league.



That is not the stance I am taking. Betts is a better defensive player. No doubt. But he doesn't bring the same thing that Rinaldo brings. I know, I know, intensity and sandpaper is worthless and we have other players that do it some times already, but when you are talking about a guy that plays 8 minutes per game, Rinaldo is a guy I would put on this team over Blair Betts ATM.

That being said, I'd take Blair Betts over Adam Hall any day of the week. I'd rather have Rinaldo and Betts on that line than Rinaldo and Hall, but I'd rather have Rinaldo and Hall over Hall and Betts.

Also I'd rather have Hall and Oates over both.

First part: I think you're really overestimating how much intimidation he brings. He just isn't on the ice enough to be that much of a factor. Most of the opposing team might not even share the ice with him during a game. He just doesn't play enough to be that much of a factor, and when he is on the ice it's not like they're a risk to score or capitalize on any intimidation.

Like I said, we aren't dealing with Lindros here, who could crush guys and was on the ice a LOT. He wasn't escapable. Rinaldo is.

Second Part: Well alright then, no more point arguing that. I know how this will go.

 

[bauerhockey02]

He's drawing penalties on a pretty regular basis. Not every shift but it is certainly noticeable. I agree Simmonds is definitely bringing intensity to the table on a level higher than most on the team, but you want more than just him. Giroux brings it, but not int he same way. Hartnell stirs the pot after the whistle and gets under guys skin, but doesn't throw the hits like Rinaldo. The rest of the guys on the team either bring the intensity in a different way or to a much smaller degree. You want energy players on your roster.

And the part of the argument regarding the intimidation factor is not laughable. Having a guy running around hitting everything that moves changes the way guys play. It makes them more cautious. It gets them annoyed and off their game. You see it all the time, not just with Rinaldo but other guys around the league.



That is not the stance I am taking. Betts is a better defensive player. No doubt. But he doesn't bring the same thing that Rinaldo brings. I know, I know, intensity and sandpaper is worthless and we have other players that do it some times already, but when you are talking about a guy that plays 8 minutes per game, Rinaldo is a guy I would put on this team over Blair Betts ATM.

That being said, I'd take Blair Betts over Adam Hall any day of the week. I'd rather have Rinaldo and Betts on that line than Rinaldo and Hall, but I'd rather have Rinaldo and Hall over Hall and Betts.

Also I'd rather have Hall and Oates over both.

So again, a Laperriere type who can bring the intensity but still brings better defense by doing things like blocking tons of shots.

 

[Rich Nixon]

To me this isn't debating the value of violence and intimidation in hockey. If Zac Rinaldo had even a horribly mediocre third liner's offensive talent he'd probably be my favorite player on Earth. But as it is he should not be on the team.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It isn't just about how Rinaldo's game affects the opposition, it is also about how Rinaldo's game affects the crowd and his teammates. The atmosphere of a game is different when you have Rinaldo doing his thing vs having Betts doing his thing. Depending on the particular team/game, one or the other could be more conducive to helping the team win.

Betts was a great shot blocker and a warrior, that was inspirational for the players and he was a more effective player.


I just can't think of a single game where we can look at a Rinaldo hit and say "That's it! That's the turning point!"

Hell, even the famous Giroux hit on Crosby or the Richards Shift that started with a big hit only matter in the end because they finished with goals.

 

[joez86]

I will try to find the article, but there is a study that shows that fighting/this intensity thing actually doesnt affect the game as much as people think.

That is nonsense. There is a reason it has always been a part of the game. I would love to see the article, though.

When comparing the results of human action, I don't trust any study which claims to be able to compare an actual result with what "most likely" would have happened if some small factor was different. People aren't particles, and are not predictable in that sort of manner.

 

[sa cyred]

That is nonsense. There is a reason it has always been a part of the game. I would love to see the article, though.

When comparing the results of human action, I don't trust any study which claims to be able to compare an actual result with what "most likely" would have happened if some small factor was different. People aren't particles, and are not predictable in that sort of manner.

Im trying to find the book that i read it in. A few of the statistical guys use this one:


http://blog.philbirnbaum.com/2012/01/do-hockey-fights-lift-teams-performance.html?m=1