Value of: Yzerplan put 18.1 million to Holl, Gostisbehere, Reimer, Compher, Sprong and Kostin

[AmabileCassarole]

Because on the internet people turn into their worst selves with no accountability.

Louis Rossman made a very good point about this sorta thing when it came to Elon Musk, and I think he nailed exactly what you're talking about overall:

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

Louis Rossman made a very good point about this sorta thing when it came to Elon Musk, and I think he nailed exactly what you're talking about overall:

View attachment 774497

Stopped reading after "autistic nerds".
Could be a comment full of wisdom that I'm missing out on, but hey, thems the breaks.

 

[josra33]

This thread aged poorly.

 

[RedHawkDown]

The whole "prospects spending time in minors longer than any other teams prospects" thing is a myth. And I don't really know where it's coming from. I think it started in the late 90s but it doesnt make sense. No prospect who was NHL ready was forced to the minors to develop longer than necessary.

Simon Edvinsson is absolutely NHL ready and is in the AHL because we have Chiarot/Holl/Maatta/Petry blocking him.

 

[Detroit Knights]

I know you don't read anything I say (as you have said before, but fu*k it, amiright?

Which prospect in the last decade of the Holland era was as good as Raymond or Seider?

How the hell did you somehow muddle this into me saying "Berggren = Raymond"?

you are saying that yzerman grew up in the holland era of management. You are saying that yzerman prescribed to holland's way of thinking in management when it comes to over riped players. You gave examples of hudler, berggren, etc.

I am merely pointing out that you are saying yzerman follows holland in this specific part of the prospects when it just isn't true.

Yzerman came up under Holland in management and you don't think the way Holland deal with prospects might bear some sort of relevancy to the way Yzerman deals with them? Lolwut?

now if you are saying the "relevancy" is that he takes that into account but doesn't do it then sure. But that isn't what you are saying here. Yzerman and holland have the same philosophy in the sense that they are not going to put prospects on the nhl team in a place where they will not succeed or if they will get more minutes/experience in the ahl for the specific slot they are projected to play in (ex. top 6 )

You're not wrong that Yzerman wasn't in charge when those guys were around.

But they absolutely overcooked prospects back in the day, and Nyquist is the prime example. To the point that I recall in the 14-15 season they were highlighting that over something like a 70 or 80 game stretch (Going back into the 13-14 season) Nyquist was pretty much on par with Ovechkin and Stamkos in goal scoring, at the top of the list.

And they're doing it with Edvinsson now. He may have stuff to improve on, and it may be better for his development to work on it in the AHL, but he's absolutely better than a couple of Detroit's current defenders.

Now maybe I used the wrong example of berggren and should have used nyquist (or even tatar...never liked tatar though so I'll stay away on that one). both players at berggren's stage of development I thought were going to be our next datysuk type player that has finesse and great passing ability, (just for transparency sake). Raymond imo didn't have the preseason of god's in his first year he made the team. I could obviously be wrong but i think he had 2 goals and what 5 assists? Sure our team was not good so that made it easier to keep him around, but nyquist would still be playing in grand rapids if we had our current team in 2012-2013 (which is probably why I said berggren in the first place because I see them as similar players).

Overall, it is best for berggren to be in ahl if he is getting top 6 minutes because that is where he should be playing in the nhl when he has a chance. He should not be in the bottom 6 or even the top 9 at all. He is a top 6 type of player. Anywhere else, he is "useless" for lack of better words. He is not better than our current top 6 and pushing him down in the lineup didn't really help us last year either and if use all 4 lines like we did last year for this year (which one could argue that we are), then we wouldn't be getting much production or development with him on the ice right now.

At the same time, this is about yzerman and his management style that I don't believe for a second is the same as holland. I think it was more of a collab with babcock more than anything that over riped players in the sense that babcock just didn't want the younger kids on the team. Holland had larkin play from day one (no babcock), had franzen technically play from day one (size that babcock wanted but not mentally strong for babcocks batshit crazy tatics).

-Mantha always had the tools but never used them, so that is why he was over riped.
-Tatar was over riped because he was too erratic with the puck. He always had to do a triple deke right when he got the puck and no one was around him
-Nyquist was over riped because he was a top 6 type player (berggren) that could get more playing time in ahl than top 6 minutes in nhl until he forced himself onto the roster
-Hudler was over riped because I would imagine he was the same case as nyquist
-Edvinsson is being over riped (purely opinion) because he had his first major injury last year and having him start in GR was a foregone conclusion, even if he was "ready" to play opening day. Playing in GR at 20+ minutes (presumably) would have been better than playing on 3rd pairing getting (potentially) 14 minutes a night and being pushed to play at a much higher level with a possible shoulder discomfort/pain, if it was there.

If we didn't sign petry, edvinsson would be up and probably on the second line with chiarot. But how can one possibly know that edvinsson would recover that well from his first injury? You just don't know and anyone who says they do are full of it. Yzerman is pragmatic and analytical. He isn't going to mortgage the future development of our next "Lidstrom". He is going to treat it with kid gloves and nurture it, maybe even caress it a bit more, before he unleashes him into the wild. Same could be said for Gibbs on the Lions and what Dan Campbell did there.

 

[Hobnobs]

Which prospect in the last decade of the Holland era was as good as Raymond or Seider?

How the hell did you somehow muddle this into me saying "Berggren = Raymond"?

You still haven't tied this to the "they did this when Yerman played so he does it now"-scenario that plays in your head. Can't be that hard since you were so sure of it.

Simon Edvinsson is absolutely NHL ready and is in the AHL because we have Chiarot/Holl/Maatta/Petry blocking him.

and? How does that tie into the whole "Holland did this when Yzerman played so he does it now"-scenario that he's talking about?

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

You still haven't tied this to the "they did this when Yerman played so he does it now"-scenario that plays in your head. Can't be that hard since you were so sure of it.

Still trying to figure out where I said that they were doing this when Yzerman played, considering I literally said:

Yzerman came up under Holland in management and you don't think the way Holland deal with prospects might bear some sort of relevancy to the way Yzerman deals with them? Lolwut?

Pretty clear reference toward Yzerman's first management job, in Detroit, under Holland, when the likes of Nyquist and Tatar and Hudler were coming up. But apparently it sailed right over your head.

You either have no reading comprehension skills or you were unaware that Yzerman's first job in management was working under Holland for four years before he ever went to Tampa. Don't really care which it is.

 

[Volica]

This just in:

Steve Yzerman knows more than HFBoard posters

Who could've predicted.
A bunch of dudes who read colour coded cards to judge players, and rarely watch anyone outside of their own team... wait for it... know less than professionals with professional teams that have professional scouts who do that as a profession.

Everyone just thinks 'you know what, suck, draft, don't sign any older guys, let the team arrive and just kill' meanwhile will completely forget about teams that don't learn how to win, struggle with culture problems, aren't gifted generational players.

There's no magic recipe in the NHL; it is easily the most random sport in North America in terms of outcomes.

 

[Hobnobs]

Still trying to figure out where I said that they were doing this when Yzerman played, considering I literally said:



Pretty clear reference toward Yzerman's first management job, in Detroit, under Holland, when the likes of Nyquist and Tatar and Hudler were coming up. But apparently it sailed right over your head.

You either have no reading comprehension skills or you were unaware that Yzerman's first management job was working under Holland for four years before he ever went to Tampa. Don't really care which it is.

Yzerman left in 2010... They drafted Tatar in 09 and Nyquist in 08... How the hell did he learn to overcook prospects when he left long before they were supposedly overcooked?

So you must then mean that he learned to overcook prospects by how they handled Kindl, Emmerton, Abdelkader, Helm and Mursak. All those elite NHL ready talents. LULWUT1337XD

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Yzerman left in 2010... They drafted Tatar in 09 and Nyquist in 08... How the hell did he learn to overcook prospects when he left long before they were supposedly overcooked?

So you must then mean that he learned to overcook prospects by how they handled Kindl, Emmerton, Abdelkader, Helm and Mursak. All those elite NHL ready talents. LULWUT1337XD

What part of it being the overall mentality in Detroit don't you get?

Take the L and move on. Thanks for Googling Yzerman's tenure in Detroit after realizing he worked there with Holland.

 

[Hobnobs]

What part of it being the overall mentality in Detroit don't you get?

Take the L and move on. Thanks for Googling Yzerman's tenure in Detroit after realizing he worked there with Holland.

What overall mentality are you talking about? Playing Franzen without a single game in the AHL? No they didnt overcook prospects as a general strategy. Because then why didn't Yzerman do that with the Lightning?

Also this was the original post that you came into the debate about and defended:

When a team loads up on free agent signings, it can generally only be viewed as a negative for three reasons that I can see.

1 - They end up taking spots from younger players. Wings fans would have a better idea for this but Yzerman developed in an organization where they liked their prospects to spend a ton of time, maybe more than necessary, improving in the AHL so it's possible he has that same philosophy. Having said that, my limited info would suggest this isn't a problem.

Maybe read before you start talking different things?

No L here, I know Yzerman worked in Detroits management. You're the one not making any sense because drunk stumbled into a discussion you didn't understand and started talking about prospects Yzerman wasn't around for.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

What overall mentality are you talking about? Playing Franzen without a single game in the AHL? No they didnt overcook prospects as a general strategy. Because then why didn't Yzerman do that with the Lightning?

Also this was the original post that you came into the debate about and defended:



Maybe read before you start talking different things?

No L here, I know Yzerman worked in Detroits management. You're the one not making any sense because drunk stumbled into a discussion you didn't understand and started talking about prospects Yzerman wasn't around for.

Your argument is that Franzen wasn't overcooked because he never played a game in the AHL? Franzen was f***ing 26 in his rookie year.

Just stop my guy. It's embarrassing at this point.

 

[RedHawkDown]

You still haven't tied this to the "they did this when Yerman played so he does it now"-scenario that plays in your head. Can't be that hard since you were so sure of it.



and? How does that tie into the whole "Holland did this when Yzerman played so he does it now"-scenario that he's talking about?

Didn’t say anything about any Holland Yzerman conspiracy scenario. Simply stated a fact - Yzerman is currently overcooking multiple Detroit prospects, chiefly Edvinsson. Arguments could be made for Berggren.

 

[Hobnobs]

Your argument is that Franzen wasn't overcooked because he never played a game in the AHL? Franzen was f***ing 26 in his rookie year.

Just stop my guy. It's embarrassing at this point.

So again. Who did they overcook? You talked about Hudler. When was he supposed to have a full-time job in the NHL?

Also good job on skipping over all other arguments again because you cant reply to them

 

[AmabileCassarole]

Stopped reading after "autistic nerds".
Could be a comment full of wisdom that I'm missing out on, but hey, thems the breaks.

Hey, I agree that it wasn't the best choice of words, but I think the point he made was spot on all the same. Think of how the Austin/McMahon feud played into the same idea; people want to vent, and they attach themselves onto representations of their feelings. Very common stuff.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

So again. Who did they overcook? You talked about Hudler. When was he supposed to have a full-time job in the NHL?

I like how you bring up terrible arguments and then just abandon ship and change topics when they fail miserably.

Admit it, you looked up Detroit's draft history and saw Franzen in '04 and go "OH HE ONLY SPENT A YEAR IN THE SYSTEM BEFORE MAKING THE TEAM!" not realizing he was already 24 when he was drafted.

 

[Hobnobs]

I like how you bring up terrible arguments and then just abandon ship and change topics when they fail miserably.

Admit it, you looked up Detroit's draft history and saw Franzen in '04 and go "OH HE ONLY SPENT A YEAR IN THE SYSTEM BEFORE MAKING THE TEAM!" not realizing he was already 24 when he was drafted.

Nah you're the one abandoning ship. I dont need to google Franzen. I followed his career =)

Now. Since this is Yzermans mentality and all. Isnt it strange that this thread isnt filled with lightning fans defending you claiming he overcooked prospects?

Terrible arguments that you still havent responded to. Who did they overcook? When was Hudler supposed to play in the NHL? Or did you just realise that they gave Hudler chances and he didnt produce?

So again. Which are all these prospects that Yzerman saw being overcooked in Detroit and which are all the prospects he overcooked in Tampa? Should be easy enough questions for you to answer even though Ive been asking for a while now but youve avoided them and then claim I abandon the ship. Come on now. Answer the questions.

 

[Jumptheshark]

This thread aged poorly.

Yep. Yserman has a plan and is sticking to it. Only one contract mentioned may age poorly

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Nah you're the one abandoning ship. I dont need to google Franzen. I followed his career =)

Now. Since this is Yzermans mentality and all. Isnt it strange that this thread isnt filled with lightning fans defending you claiming he overcooked prospects?

Terrible arguments that you still havent responded to. Who did they overcook? When was Hudler supposed to play in the NHL? Or did you just realise that they gave Hudler chances and he didnt produce?

So again. Which are all these prospects that Yzerman saw being overcooked in Detroit and which are all the prospects he overcooked in Tampa? Should be easy enough questions for you to answer even though Ive been asking for a while now but youve avoided them and then claim I abandon the ship. Come on now. Answer the questions.

You followed his career so closely that you used him as an example of Detroit not overcooking prospects when he turned 26 in his rookie season.

Sure.

 

[Hobnobs]

You followed his career so closely that you used him as an example of Detroit not overcooking prospects when he turned 26 in his rookie season.

Sure.

So you can't answer the questions then?

 

[Perfect Human]

Which prospect in the last decade of the Holland era was as good as Raymond or Seider?

How the hell did you somehow muddle this into me saying "Berggren = Raymond"?

Larkin

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

So you can't answer the questions then?

Honestly, I quit reading your replies beyond the first sentence quite awhile ago. Right around the time that you repeatedly falsely insisted that I was referring to Yzerman's playing career rather than his management career because you apparently didn't realize he worked under Holland. That's about when I realized the dissertations you write aren't worth reading.

You later validated that with the "Franzen wasn't overcooked at 26" suggestion.

Larkin

True. Forgot that one.

 

[Perfect Human]

Simon Edvinsson is absolutely NHL ready and is in the AHL because we have Chiarot/Holl/Maatta/Petry blocking him.

Simon Edvinsson just needs to be more consistent. He doesn’t belong in the bottom pair and needs more minutes to thrive. From what I’ve seen, he kind of builds over the course of the game. If it’s not top 4, it’s the AHL.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I don’t know why the OP or fans stick their neck out this far. This thread was created on pure cynicism and not logic.

Personally I never like to be the person who claims to know how teams will fair each season.

For example I thought the leafs would be better this season, but deep down everything had to click. I never imagined it would be an extended pre-season (testing lines, tough guys, reclamation projects, goalies, etc.).

Another example is when certain hf members declare that "This is the year Boston will decline".

Eventually lower tier teams come around, and good organizations continue to put out competitive teams.

As for Detroit Chiarot, Gostisbehere, and Holl are all fine. They are not great, but it seems like they've put these players in the right position to succeed.

Holl was fine as a leaf. He just couldn't do well when asked to play more minutes, etc. As a bottom 6 D he can play on any team and be fine.

Collectively this board has a habit of romanticizing what good teams look like. Even the best teams have some laggards on their roster. Why would a rebuilding team like Detroit be any different? The Chiarots, Ghosts and Holls of the world won't kill you provided that you don't ask them to do too much. It also helps if you can evaluate them independent of their contracts.

 

[ShanahanMan]

View attachment 725234



And the Yzerplan is? to finish dead last?


With

Chiarot, Gostisbehere and Holl for your D playing night after night,
that will not be very difficult.. lol

You have Olli Määttä as the only one who is good at playing D
and that says a lot, i like Määttä and he has grown to be surprisingly good
with playing his own calm game, but still he is Olli Määttä and not.. lets say someone like Esa Lindell.


I feel sorry for the Red Wings fans.

And the day we sign Kane is the same day Chicago is wrapped up in yet ANOTHER controversy.

Love to see it.