Yzerman to Ottawa

[begbeee]

If something would change him, it would be Detroit at the time.

 

[Stephen]

Pariah of course.

I also don't understand the people on here who felt Yashin would be a good fit in Detroit. Yashin wasn't a good fit ANYWHERE. Have we forgotten the cancer he was already?

I think you might have forgotten that Alexei Yashin was a Hart Trophy runner up in 1999 and was emerging as a leader in the Ottawa community before things went bust. And Long Island was definitely not an ideal spot to parachute into. Certainly a lot of the disappointment with regards to his playoff performance was a result of the immense abilities he was demonstrating in the regular season.

I'm not necessarily saying I think he would have turned into a completely different player, but it isn't that unreasonable to think that on those Red Wings teams they had with Fedorov, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Hull, Robitaille, Holmstrom, whomever, he could have just settled in as one productive cog in an incredibly well oiled machine.

 

[begbeee]

Right. Come on! Islanders were black hole. Anything what happened there we should take with grain of salt. Young Yashin scored 14 points in 18 games early and then had 2 bad playoffs. Just imagine, how many great players had 2 weak playoffs early in their career. With better circumstances (not Islanders) he even could be playoff warrior in Detroit

 

[GuineaPig]

Yeah, there's some serious forgetfulness about how good Yashin was in his prime. This is obviously unfair to Fedorov, but compare the each's PPG totals from '96-97 to '00-01:

Fedorov:
0.85
0.81
0.82
0.91
0.92

Yashin:
0.91
0.88
1.15
----
1.07


Considering that Yashin was no slouch on defense, I don't know why so many are saying Fedorov was miles ahead of him.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Pariah of course.

I also don't understand the people on here who felt Yashin would be a good fit in Detroit. Yashin wasn't a good fit ANYWHERE. Have we forgotten the cancer he was already?

Then again, how many players have developed the reputation of a "cancer" in Detroit? I see him either working out fine, or at worst quietly traded away after a couple of productive years with no drama.

I mean, I know at one point that Ken Holland said some damning things about a young Sean Avery, but he didn't become the NHL's favourite dysfunctional celebrity until LA.

I can't think of one thing that happened off-ice in Detroit since the 90s that was more dramatic than it needed to be.

 

[sr edler]

come on now, yashin put up a fine amount of points in the regular season for a fair amount of years but he didn't have that extra kind of gear or hustle you need in the playoffs to be a real difference maker

yashin would never throw himself in front of a puck like yzerman or crash the net like bure, it wasn't his style, he didn't play like that

you can't compare yashin and fedorov's regular season numbers like that, exactly those years we're talking about here, 97-02, fedorov deliberatly coasted in the regular season as a designated defensive dead puck era second liner and then did his thing in the playoffs, it was clearly a made up tactic by the team|bowman to save him offensively for the post season, while yashin was the go to guy on his team in the regular season and relied upon to score in every single game, and then disappered like a ghost in the playoffs

i think that if fedorov and yashin played as a 1|2 center punch in detroit those years yashin could very well have outscored fedorov in the regular season, like he did in the 98 olympics for example, but he wouldn't have been the better player, or the more clutch player, he would only have been alexei yashin, you know

 

[begbeee]

If it was slight reaction on my post, I just have said, that Yashin could become very useful player in Detroit, not that he would push Fedorov to second line. Basically I dont care if Yashin would be #1 during regular season and then #2 postseason. Does it really matter who is #1 center in Pens when both Malkin and Crosby are healthy?

 

[Stephen]

If it was slight reaction on my post, I just have said, that Yashin could become very useful player in Detroit, not that he would push Fedorov to second line. Basically I dont care if Yashin would be #1 during regular season and then #2 postseason. Does it really matter who is #1 center in Pens when both Malkin and Crosby are healthy?

Exactly. I think Yashin would have been one of many weapons in Detroit, probably would have benefited from some strong mentorship and at least chipped in a fair shair for a cup run at some point between 1996 and 2004.

 

[Big Phil]

Then again, how many players have developed the reputation of a "cancer" in Detroit? I see him either working out fine, or at worst quietly traded away after a couple of productive years with no drama.

I mean, I know at one point that Ken Holland said some damning things about a young Sean Avery, but he didn't become the NHL's favourite dysfunctional celebrity until LA.

I can't think of one thing that happened off-ice in Detroit since the 90s that was more dramatic than it needed to be.

There you have it, Detroit couldn't straighten out Avery either. Yashin didn't have on-ice antics or make a "sloppy seconds" comment but he was just as much of a subtle cancer. No GM would draft these two clowns. Yashin got that $90 contract from probably the worst GM in the history of the NHL. This was after a sweep in the postseason where he did nothing again. You don't think he was his own worst enemy? It didn't take a rocket scientist to know the Isles were a dysfunctional clan back then but he still took the paycheque and ran.

I think you might have forgotten that Alexei Yashin was a Hart Trophy runner up in 1999 and was emerging as a leader in the Ottawa community before things went bust. And Long Island was definitely not an ideal spot to parachute into. Certainly a lot of the disappointment with regards to his playoff performance was a result of the immense abilities he was demonstrating in the regular season.

I'm not necessarily saying I think he would have turned into a completely different player, but it isn't that unreasonable to think that on those Red Wings teams they had with Fedorov, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Hull, Robitaille, Holmstrom, whomever, he could have just settled in as one productive cog in an incredibly well oiled machine.

I remember it very well. Yashin had a Hart caliber year in 1999. He looked like a player that could literally become a HHOFer. The Sens looked like Cup contenders because of HIM and that big season. Which is why when he choked in a playoff sweep it was even more puzzling that he demanded more money WHILE still in a legally binding contract. If you guys want him on your team that's your problem not mine. You can have him. Give me someone with some character instead who is a selfless player. Did anyone ever describe Yashin as a selfless player? I've never heard it. And for those comparing Yashin's regular season numbers to Fedorov's are missing the point. Fedorov other than 2-3 seasons was nothing special. It was the postseason when he always shone. There was never any evidence in Yashin's playing career that he would do whatever it took to help the team win. I mean for crying out loud the guy sat idly by in 2000 watching his team get dispatched in the first round and he was the captain at the time still under contract but holding out. Again, you can have that cancer on your team.

 

[toob]

This scenario's initial conditions would likely not have happened because Ottawa did not want to trade Yashin (i have read it was Straka, a D, and draft picks but it is all rumors), and Ottawa did not want to pay any of Yzerman's salary. Meanwhile those elements in Detroit's management who toyed with trading Yzerman wanted to get rid of his $3.5 million salary most of all. This happened before the 96 season and so you had Yzerman the year before playing a checking role behind Fedorov/Primeau and his numbers were a huge drop from the consistency before. He had further back surgery before the 95 season after it already finished him as an elite goal scorer early in the 94 season. Then he had knee surgery during the 95 playoffs. He was also 30 years old. All indications pointed to him being another one of those former stars who had burned out and retire due to injuries in his early 30s. His trade value wasnt exactly premium for Ottawa to give their best player and pay part of his salary.

Also Illitch had the right to veto all trades so if Bowman or Devellano wanted to go ahead with it Illitch "would never have allowed it" as Bowman himself has said given that Yzerman was basically treated like his son.

Also Yzerman never wanted to go to a team like Ottawa. He gave a list of teams he would be traded to and Ottawa was not on it. He always said to the media that he didnt want to be traded but if he was he wanted to go to a contender. I remember reading once that Yzerman actually said he would not report to Ottawa if he was traded there but i havent been able to find it so i cant verify or source it.

But IF Illitch allowed it and Ottawa accepted a Yzerman/Yashin swap then best case:

The Wings still win a cup. Yzerman was the best player in those cup runs but he wasnt THE Wings like before. You had Fedorov and Lidstrom and they were deep as hell. I dont know much about Yashin other than that he was a talented player who had a bad reputation but you would figure that if Yashin wouldnt work the management of Detroit would make something work for at least one year.

Yzerman i think best case has some good years in Ottawa and his scoring is probably a bit better. Much worse team and most likely worse wingers but a much different role than in Detroit. He might hit 100 points in 96 but i dont think after that. Maybe scoring 80-90 points instead of 70-80. Not going to be a an elite scorer cause of the back though. 40 tops. Doesnt get the recognition of being elite defensively but he also doesnt anachronistically get knocked for his D early on. Probably improves his leadership repuation due to leading a poor team to some success like he got in the late 80s but not like the legendary leader he became in the eyes of the media after the first cup win. Wins a cup very late in his career and is seen like Andreychuk in Tampa.

However the worst case is also very possible. Most likely Detroit doesnt win a Cup after the trade (see what happened in 96 WITH Yzerman) and the backlash against management by owners/fans is going to be HUGE. They likely run them out of town and all the work implementing the Wings style goes to hell.

Yzerman in Ottawa could very well just see the futility of the situation with his team sitaution, age, injuries and retire shortly afterwards.

 

[sr edler]

I think Yashin would have been one of many weapons in Detroit, probably would have benefited from some strong mentorship and at least chipped in a fair shair for a cup run at some point between 1996 and 2004.

so basically what you're saying is that you think yashin could have figured as something of a passenger, or second fiddle, and that he perhaps could have made "a cup run" with the wings in one of those years?

well of course that's very possible because the wings was still loaded and yashin was a very good player, technically, but you'll have to remember the west was a bee hive those years in the late 90s, you had colorado and dallas going on all cylinders to beat out only in your own conference, those teams were ridiculously loaded too, yashin would have to go up against sakic|forsberg|foote, modano|lehtinen|hatcher, he would have to battle it out against the cream of the crop

if yashin's on the wings in 97-98 it's very likely colorado or dallas, or even philly, wins cups because yzerman was crucial on those wings teams, not only as a player but also as a captain, and if detroit doesn't win a cup in 97 or 98 and if yzerman's not there in the early 00s but instead yashin do you really think hull and robitaille signs there? you don't know that, that team could have looked very different

 

[begbeee]

so basically what you're saying is that you think yashin could have figured as something of a passenger, or second fiddle, and that he perhaps could have made "a cup run" with the wings in one of those years?

Yzerman gone, that would hurt Wings, no arguing about that. They would not win so many cups between lockouts, that's sure. Saying that Yashin was such a cancer and choker that Wings would not win any is a fallacy IMO.
Speculation about other trades (i.e. Robitaille) is death way, because everything would changed.. Butterfly effect

 

[Johnny Engine]

There you have it, Detroit couldn't straighten out Avery either. Yashin didn't have on-ice antics or make a "sloppy seconds" comment but he was just as much of a subtle cancer. No GM would draft these two clowns. Yashin got that $90 contract from probably the worst GM in the history of the NHL. This was after a sweep in the postseason where he did nothing again. You don't think he was his own worst enemy? It didn't take a rocket scientist to know the Isles were a dysfunctional clan back then but he still took the paycheque and ran.

How the Red Wings would treat a guy they hypothetically traded their captain for is worlds apart from a 4th liner they tried out for 2 half-seasons and then shuffled away to LA with no real public drama.

I think it's telling that Yashin had 11 points in 12 playoff games in his first 2 seasons with the Islanders - which would roughly correspond with the one time in his career he had any reason to believe his organization was going anywhere. Of course, the Islanders just got worse and worse, and even then, his teammates spoke generally well of him, and he was apparently good buddies with Wang (you decide whether that makes him a good or bad team guy) even as his play declined and his salary became a larger burden.

Anyway, I really dislike the line of reasoning that goes "X is a dressing room cancer because of that one time he farted on live TV" or whatever. I think as fans we can get a pretty good idea of players that are particularly well or respected or not, by the way people talk about them, but I just can't believe that people hated Avery because of that one time he mouthed off about Elisha Cuthbert. Besides that, I don't see any reason that a hypothetical Yashin who had his ducks in a row contract wise* would be any different than someone like Mogilny - enigmatic on the ice, quiet off it, but in no way antagonistic or disrespected as a person.

*I really want someone to write a serious biography of Yashin's agent, Mark Gandler, someday. The guy seems like an absolute menace, and has probably done less for North American perception of Russian hockey players than anyone short of Don Cherry. Pat Quinn had a practice of trading away Gandler clients just about as soon as they hit RFA status, even when they were guys with that "warrior" vibe like Dmitri Yushkevich, and seemed to intimate that they were huge headaches to negotiate with.

 

[sr edler]

Saying that Yashin was such a cancer and choker that Wings would not win any is a fallacy IMO.

i didn't say yashin was a cancer, that's not really my "case" against him or the main reason why i think he wouldn't have been a great fit in detroit, it's more his playing style and capabilities, and perhaps that's a bit unfair, i don't know

but sometimes, or a lot of times, with yashin it appeared like he didn't give it all, like if he didn't really care, because he wasn't a player to throw himself in front of pucks, he didn't crash the net, he didn't bang a lot along the boards and he didn't put his body on the line like peter forsberg, he was a big skilled center with delicate hands, kind of slow and immobile, like a million dollar viktor kozlov, or a lite version of mats sundin! only less consistent and more enigmatic

and you know some people believe quebec traded sundin because he couldn't elevate his game enough in the playoffs

 

[Big Phil]

How the Red Wings would treat a guy they hypothetically traded their captain for is worlds apart from a 4th liner they tried out for 2 half-seasons and then shuffled away to LA with no real public drama.

I think it's telling that Yashin had 11 points in 12 playoff games in his first 2 seasons with the Islanders - which would roughly correspond with the one time in his career he had any reason to believe his organization was going anywhere. Of course, the Islanders just got worse and worse, and even then, his teammates spoke generally well of him, and he was apparently good buddies with Wang (you decide whether that makes him a good or bad team guy) even as his play declined and his salary became a larger burden.

Anyway, I really dislike the line of reasoning that goes "X is a dressing room cancer because of that one time he farted on live TV" or whatever. I think as fans we can get a pretty good idea of players that are particularly well or respected or not, by the way people talk about them, but I just can't believe that people hated Avery because of that one time he mouthed off about Elisha Cuthbert. Besides that, I don't see any reason that a hypothetical Yashin who had his ducks in a row contract wise* would be any different than someone like Mogilny - enigmatic on the ice, quiet off it, but in no way antagonistic or disrespected as a person.

*I really want someone to write a serious biography of Yashin's agent, Mark Gandler, someday. The guy seems like an absolute menace, and has probably done less for North American perception of Russian hockey players than anyone short of Don Cherry. Pat Quinn had a practice of trading away Gandler clients just about as soon as they hit RFA status, even when they were guys with that "warrior" vibe like Dmitri Yushkevich, and seemed to intimate that they were huge headaches to negotiate with.

Put it this way. He holds out in 1999-'00 while under contract demanding more money which he didn't deserve. He fights it in court and an arbitrator rules he HAS to play for Ottawa in 2000-'01. Yashin is forced to play on that team. Think of that wording. Now, I don't care how nice of a guy you think you are, but you've let your team down and didn't give a lick about team success in the first place and put yourself far above the team almost as much as anyone has ever done in NHL history. Give me a polygraph in that Senators room in 2000-'01 and I think you'd discover they didn't want him there anymore than he wanted to be there. Then in 2001 he is traded away. We don't know what went on behind closed doors but it isn't hard to speculate. So yeah, Yashin was his own worst enemy sometimes.