Your theory on why Dale Hawerchuk had to wait an extra year for induction to the HHOF

[Ralph Spoilsport]

Regarding Mullen, I think his induction was fast-tracked not just because he was American, but because he was an American from the inner-city. (Hockey perceived as a sport for the suburban middle-classes.) The career path that took Mullen from Hell's Kitchen to the NHL was one he had to blaze himself (OK, with older brother Brian). That's a contribution to the game that deserves some bonus points.

 

[Big Phil]

I think I part with Big Phil on this one. I agree that Hawerchuk was great for a bit longer than Kariya -- but not much longer. Kariya was all-world from 1995 to 2007, as I see it. With Nashville 2005-2007 Kariya was leading a 1st-place team in scoring and acting as team captain. Age 30 was actually the last time Hawerchuk was great, and for Kariya it's about age 32. (Thinking twice about it, I'm not sure I do agree that Hawerchuk was greater for longer...)

Beyond that, it's all about Kariya. Much better skater, more dynamic player, more playoff success. There was a period (circa 1997) when Kariya was very much in the conversation as the game's greatest player, which Hawerchuk never was (and I don't think would have been without Gretzky, either).

I think in 1985 he was awfully close to being the next best player in the NHL other than Gretzky. He certainly had the season for it.

Panther, as you see from my chart in this post you can see Kariya was not the elite scorer for very long that we think and it pales in comparison to Hawerchuk who didn't have those injuries/off years/contract hold outs. All of this and it is still very possible to call Hawerchuk one of the most underrated players of all-time.

I'll give you that Kariya was the better skater. Heck, Kariya was a better skater than Gretzky while we're at it. But being more dynamic is not being more effective. Hawerchuk was far more effective. I'm also puzzled by your playoff comparison that favours Kariya over Hawerchuk. Can you elaborate on that?

He did?

Top-10 scoring finishes :

Kariya - 3, 3, 4, 7
Hawerchuk - 3, 4, 7, 9

I think it goes a bit further than this though too. Hawerchuk is doing this in a league with Wayne Gretzky. But it goes further, let's look past their top 10 scoring finishes and do top 20:

Hawerchuk - 3, 4, 7, 9, 11, 11, 11, 12, 16, 18
Kariya - 3, 3, 4, 7, 13

That's it. No joke. Kariya was a top 20 scorer 5 times. His peak was not for very long, people forget this. Even in 2006 when he made what we might think was a rejuvenation of his career he was still 22nd in points at his best in the Nashville years. Hawerchuk was just simply always in the mix for a longer time. He was in the casual fan's consciousness for longer. From 1981-'94 he had at least 80 points each year, most times much more. There is one other player in NHL history that has had at least 80 points a year in 13 straight seasons............Wayne Gretzky. So when people talk about Hawerchuk's "decline" and how he didn't age well I tend to disagree. He came in like a lightning rod in 1981-'82 and scored at an elite pace for a little more than a decade. But we seem to remember him at times as the guy who was so-so on St. Louis and his final year in Philly.

 

[The Panther]

Yes, as an elite scorer I have no problem with ranking Hawerchuk a bit (not a lot) higher than Kariya.

But I'd take 2005-2007 Kariya over any version of Hawerchuk, with the possible exception of the 1984-85 Hawerchuk, his absolute peak.

It's not just that Hawerchuk didn't have playoff success, it's that he never did anything of note in the playoffs. Remember that great OT goal he scored? That big game 7 win? Neither do I, because it never happened in his first 15 seasons. (He made it to the final 4 in 1997 when he was a third-liner.)

Obviously there are reasons why Hawerchuk didn't have playoff success, and yes I'm aware that his PPG is probably higher than Kariya's. But that kind of shows how he was not able to elevate his team, despite his scoring. Those extra intangibles needed he did not provide, elite player though he was.

While he's a clear Hall of Famer, I don't have issue with his waiting a year.

 

[mrhockey193195]

In my mind, there's no way Hawerchuk's peak was better than Kariya's. From 1996-2000, you could make an argument that Kariya was a top-3 or top-5 forward on the planet. Take out Gretzky and Lemieux, and you still can never say that about Hawerchuk outside of maybe a season.

Obviously Hawerchuk has an edge over Kariya in longevity - but, as we all know, injuries was a large factor in that.

 

[Voight]

That would be my guess too.

Mullen - 3 cups
Savard - 1 cup
Hawerchuk - 0

This, and Savard was the face of an O6 team for about 9 or 10 years and I think thats actually something they consider.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yes, as an elite scorer I have no problem with ranking Hawerchuk a bit (not a lot) higher than Kariya.

But I'd take 2005-2007 Kariya over any version of Hawerchuk, with the possible exception of the 1984-85 Hawerchuk, his absolute peak.

It's not just that Hawerchuk didn't have playoff success, it's that he never did anything of note in the playoffs. Remember that great OT goal he scored? That big game 7 win? Neither do I, because it never happened in his first 15 seasons. (He made it to the final 4 in 1997 when he was a third-liner.)

Obviously there are reasons why Hawerchuk didn't have playoff success, and yes I'm aware that his PPG is probably higher than Kariya's. But that kind of shows how he was not able to elevate his team, despite his scoring. Those extra intangibles needed he did not provide, elite player though he was.

While he's a clear Hall of Famer, I don't have issue with his waiting a year.

out of curiosity, why are you riding for nashville-era kariya? what am i missing here? seems totally random at first glance.

and isn't kariya a textbook never did anything in the playoffs guy?

 

[Ishdul]

out of curiosity, why are you riding for nashville-era kariya? what am i missing here? seems totally random at first glance.

and isn't kariya a textbook never did anything in the playoffs guy?

His playoff numbers are pretty well in line with his other numbers. It's a little janky because he only played 46 playoff games total, nearly half of those came in 2003 and only 14 in his good years. The Mighty Ducks just didn't make the playoffs much with him because that team was garbage and Kariya was hurt a fair bit.

Of course I think people apply that "textbook" definition 100x more than they should. I mean, how many active star forwards haven't gotten it at some point? Someone mentioned something similar about Hawerchuk and I have no idea what that's all about. Neither the Jets nor the Ducks should have ever won a single playoff series in the respective tenures of Hawerchuk and Kariya.

 

[The Panther]

Seems there's some inaccurate revisionism going on here, both for and against Hawerchuk.

From 1996-2000, you could make an argument that Kariya was a top-3 or top-5 forward on the planet. Take out Gretzky and Lemieux, and you still can never say that about Hawerchuk outside of maybe a season.

Well, there you've gone too far. He was 2nd-team All Star in 1985 and 3rd in 1987, so right there he has two 1st-team All Stars without Gretzky and Lemieux. Not to mention he'd have won the 1985 Hart Trophy. From 1985 to 1988 he was top-10 in points every year, so minus Wayne and Mario he'd have been 1st or 2nd, 7th, 5th, and 2nd. He was definitely a top-5 forward from 1984 to 1988, or maybe 1990.

Someone mentioned something similar about Hawerchuk and I have no idea what that's all about. Neither the Jets nor the Ducks should have ever won a single playoff series in the respective tenures of Hawerchuk and Kariya.

That's not really true. While I wouldn't have expected Hawerchuk's Jets (or Sabres) to win the Stanley Cup, they were decent teams. Winnipeg's record was .500 or better four times with Hawerchuk, and in 1985 they were 4th-overall in the League. They won two playoff series (1985 and 1987) over Calgary. Buffalo was better than .500 in three of the first four seasons Hawerchuk was there, but won only one series (over Boston -- "May-Day!").

Again, while no one in their right mind would have expected Hawerchuk's 1981 to 1996 teams to win the Stanley Cup, I don't think it's beyond reason that he might have done better than winning three first-round series in 15 years. I'm not saying kick him out of the Hall, but I think this reasonably puts a slight limitation on how urgently he needs to be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Big Phil]

out of curiosity, why are you riding for nashville-era kariya? what am i missing here? seems totally random at first glance.

and isn't kariya a textbook never did anything in the playoffs guy?

I am almost certain that it was a typo when he said that 2005-'07 Kariya and really meant 1995-'97 Kariya.

In my mind, there's no way Hawerchuk's peak was better than Kariya's. From 1996-2000, you could make an argument that Kariya was a top-3 or top-5 forward on the planet. Take out Gretzky and Lemieux, and you still can never say that about Hawerchuk outside of maybe a season.

Obviously Hawerchuk has an edge over Kariya in longevity - but, as we all know, injuries was a large factor in that.

I would say that over a decade of a span, let's say 1981-'90 or so, that Hawerchuk is a top 5 forward. I mean, who else do we have? Gretzky, Kurri, Lemieux..........I guess you can put them ahead of Hawerchuk but anyone else conclusively? Yzerman didn't hit his stride until the late 1980s. Bossy and Trottier declined in the mid 1980s. Dionne declined after the same time. There's Savard and Stastny as the only other ones that are comparable. Messier too of course. So we're talking about taking Gretzky and Lemieux out and Hawerchuk is easily a top 5 forward, maybe higher. He might even be WITH them in there.

Yes, as an elite scorer I have no problem with ranking Hawerchuk a bit (not a lot) higher than Kariya.

But I'd take 2005-2007 Kariya over any version of Hawerchuk, with the possible exception of the 1984-85 Hawerchuk, his absolute peak.

It's not just that Hawerchuk didn't have playoff success, it's that he never did anything of note in the playoffs. Remember that great OT goal he scored? That big game 7 win? Neither do I, because it never happened in his first 15 seasons. (He made it to the final 4 in 1997 when he was a third-liner.)

Obviously there are reasons why Hawerchuk didn't have playoff success, and yes I'm aware that his PPG is probably higher than Kariya's. But that kind of shows how he was not able to elevate his team, despite his scoring. Those extra intangibles needed he did not provide, elite player though he was.

While he's a clear Hall of Famer, I don't have issue with his waiting a year.

No doubt that hurt him, his lack of playoff success. I think he showed what he was made of in the Canada Cup though. It would also be hard to carry a team when your next best guy is..............Paul MacLean? Thomas Steen? Not to mention lack of depth, defense and goaltending.

 

[thegoldenyear]

I see that Savard's retirement was announced June 26, 1997. Hawerchuk announced his August 25, 1997, after an unsuccessful stab at rehab.

Sidebar - on the matter of deadlines in the NHL calendar: I know one exists in MLB, but does hockey have a deadline for filing retirement papers? And mightn't this deadline - if it's crossed/missed - impact eligibility? Bossy last played in May 1987 but went into the HHOF in 1991 alongside Potvin (last played April 1988) because he held off for a year to rehab.

I imagine the delay on Hawerchuk's likely due to the circumstances you guys are bandying about, but it's made me curious about filing deadlines.

 

[The Panther]

I am almost certain that it was a typo when he said that 2005-'07 Kariya and really meant 1995-'97 Kariya.

No, no... I meant 2005-07. Kariya was awesome with Nashville. Just nobody cared 'cause it was Nashville.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Why should we expect the HHOF committee to be logical? They have never been... Ever. Hawerchuk waiting a year is not due to his play not being of a high enough caliber... It is just the committee being the committee.

Even in other Halls of Fame like baseball... Which has an actual prestige of being a first time HHOFer... Odd things happen.

Asking why Hawerchuk was out and Savard and Mullen in is pointless debate really if you argue merits. A committee of so few people in hockey means odd things happen. In baseball a huge voting committee in baseball has a few idiots that don't vote for a Willie Mays or Greg Maddux type on the first ballot when they should be unanimous... Even if there are 1000 voters.

If hockey had 1000 media members voting some idiot would have not voted for Orr or Gretzky (Stan Fischler?) just to be a contrarian or for some agenda.

Hawerchuk is a no-brainer HHOFer. If a committee didn't vote for him the first time when there were not 4 better players it is on the committee not due to anything Hawerchuk failed to accomplish in his career.

pretty much this.

It's the human element of sports and what leads to great sports arguments, what more could we ask for really?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It's kinda funny to say there was a log jam at center, you could just as easily say that this was probably the easiest time ever to be a forward in the NHL and that you have to take the point totals with a massive amount of salt.

I think the Hall of Fame will one day have the tarnish that it's the Hall of the 80s.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

No, no... I meant 2005-07. Kariya was awesome with Nashville. Just nobody cared 'cause it was Nashville.

you prefer the kariya that finished 20th, then 24th to the hawerchuk that finished 9th, then 7th, then 4th in the late 80s? man, those smythe division rivalries die hard with you.

 

[Big Phil]

No, no... I meant 2005-07. Kariya was awesome with Nashville. Just nobody cared 'cause it was Nashville.

I don't really understand this. Hawerchuk was an elite player for a decade at a level that you could say a 1997 Kariya knew but certainly not a 2006 Kariya. The guy was an afterthought on Team Canada, had become quite the perimeter player by then and was still only 30 years old. What is it on Nashville that he did so well that makes you prefer him over a (sans 1985) Hawerchuk at any point in his career?

Nobody really cared about Winnipeg though either. Still don't, you could say.

It's kinda funny to say there was a log jam at center, you could just as easily say that this was probably the easiest time ever to be a forward in the NHL and that you have to take the point totals with a massive amount of salt.

I think the Hall of Fame will one day have the tarnish that it's the Hall of the 80s.

But there was a logjam at center. It goes in cycles. In the 1950s there was more strength on the wings. There wasn't a logjam at center so much. The 1960s had some good centers, but again, many of the best players were wingers. The 1970s at certain parts were pretty deep, especially in the mid 1970s. But the 1980s and early 1990s are the deepest I have ever seen the center position. People try to downgrade a season like 1993, but one thing underrated about that season is that there were MANY centers right in their prime and thankfully this was a surprisingly healthy year for the players. That's another reason you see those gaudy point totals.

The late 1990s and early 2000s were not a deep time for centers at all. Not compared to the 1980s. Right now I think we are seeing a pretty good time for centers as it is as difficult for a center to crack Team Canada today then it was in the 1980s, or an elite one at least.

But the 1980s did have a logjam. Stastny, Hawerchuk and Savard are three lock cinch players for the HHOF, yet they have two 2nd team all-stars between them. That should tell you something.

 

[The Panther]

Couple of my friends are united against me here... heh.

you prefer the kariya that finished 20th, then 24th to the hawerchuk that finished 9th, then 7th, then 4th in the late 80s? man, those smythe division rivalries die hard with you.

I don't really understand this. Hawerchuk was an elite player for a decade at a level that you could say a 1997 Kariya knew but certainly not a 2006 Kariya.

This is just my feeling having watched both players. I prefer Kariya as a team leader, more multi-skilled player, and more dynamic/impactful player. I concur that 1995-2000 is Kariya's real peak and it's rather short one (thanks, Suter and Stevens), but I also think his post-2000 hockey is way under-rated. You could say that I feel Kariya did more for his teams that just score points, whereas I don't really think Hawerchuk did.

In 2005-06, Kariya led his team of no-big-names in scoring handily, finishing top-20 (albeit barely) in NHL scoring, served as team captain, and led the team to a 106-point season (and another great season the next year -- quick, can you name anybody on that team besides him?). Barry Trotz said he was like having a 2nd coach on the bench. From 2005-2007, Kariya is 3rd in NHL scoring for left-wingers, behind only Ovechkin and (slightly behind) Kovalchuk, and ahead of Daniel Sedin and Zetterberg. (I am starting to think it's a myth that Hawerchuk had better longevity. When he was Kariya's age in 2005-07 -- i.e., in 1994-1996 -- Hawerchuk was already in fast decline.)

I realize my opinion might be in the minority, but yes I would take 31-year-old Paul Kariya over 25-year-old Dale Hawerchuk.

 

[nwaZ*]

Kariya's career is an upgraded version of Näslund's. Great (in Kariya's case, amazing) peaks but not so much more other than that. Yes, a few good seasons before and after but nothing for the history books.

Kariya 05-07 wasn't very special. Very odd to bring that up as something to remember. I mean, outside of the top 20 in pts? Really? Brian Gionta and Andy MacDonald had better seasons for crying out loud.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

His playoff numbers are pretty well in line with his other numbers. It's a little janky because he only played 46 playoff games total, nearly half of those came in 2003 and only 14 in his good years. The Mighty Ducks just didn't make the playoffs much with him because that team was garbage and Kariya was hurt a fair bit.

Of course I think people apply that "textbook" definition 100x more than they should. I mean, how many active star forwards haven't gotten it at some point? Someone mentioned something similar about Hawerchuk and I have no idea what that's all about. Neither the Jets nor the Ducks should have ever won a single playoff series in the respective tenures of Hawerchuk and Kariya.

i meant textbook as in, if you're reaching for an example of a superduperstar level regular season guy with next to no playoff resume, your first name is dionne, and the next one is probably kariya.

in the sense, for instance, that gartner is your textbook compiler, housley your textbook one-way defenseman, cam neely is your textbook power forward, mogilny is you textbook russian enigma.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

incidentally i can name lots of players on the '07 preds. they had five top pair defensemen and an all-star goalie, for instance.

 

[Voight]

In 2005-06, Kariya led his team of no-big-names in scoring handily, finishing top-20 (albeit barely) in NHL scoring, served as team captain, and led the team to a 106-point season (and another great season the next year -- quick, can you name anybody on that team besides him?).

That team (2005-2006) had Kimmo Timmonen, Tomas Vokoun, Dan Hamhuis, Scott Hartnell, Ryan Suter, Shea Weber, David Legwand and Steve Sullivan as players you can name easily and whoa re relevant. Thats not even including guys like Zidlicky, Erat, Tootoo, Upshall and Chris Mason.

 

[Jets4Life]

I blame Mike Smith!

 

[Marshall]

Well, considering his skating speed, sounds like he got there right on time.

 

[tjcurrie]

Well, considering his skating speed, sounds like he got there right on time.

I read through this entire thread, and the best comment comes last.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

I see that Savard's retirement was announced June 26, 1997. Hawerchuk announced his August 25, 1997, after an unsuccessful stab at rehab.

Sidebar - on the matter of deadlines in the NHL calendar: I know one exists in MLB, but does hockey have a deadline for filing retirement papers? And mightn't this deadline - if it's crossed/missed - impact eligibility? Bossy last played in May 1987 but went into the HHOF in 1991 alongside Potvin (last played April 1988) because he held off for a year to rehab.

I imagine the delay on Hawerchuk's likely due to the circumstances you guys are bandying about, but it's made me curious about filing deadlines.

The HOF committee doesn't care about official retirements. See the Pronger induction, and before that, the Scotty Bowman induction. Both of whom are still active as a player and builder respectively.

 

[Big Phil]

This is just my feeling having watched both players. I prefer Kariya as a team leader, more multi-skilled player, and more dynamic/impactful player. I concur that 1995-2000 is Kariya's real peak and it's rather short one (thanks, Suter and Stevens), but I also think his post-2000 hockey is way under-rated. You could say that I feel Kariya did more for his teams that just score points, whereas I don't really think Hawerchuk did.

In 2005-06, Kariya led his team of no-big-names in scoring handily, finishing top-20 (albeit barely) in NHL scoring, served as team captain, and led the team to a 106-point season (and another great season the next year -- quick, can you name anybody on that team besides him?). Barry Trotz said he was like having a 2nd coach on the bench. From 2005-2007, Kariya is 3rd in NHL scoring for left-wingers, behind only Ovechkin and (slightly behind) Kovalchuk, and ahead of Daniel Sedin and Zetterberg. (I am starting to think it's a myth that Hawerchuk had better longevity. When he was Kariya's age in 2005-07 -- i.e., in 1994-1996 -- Hawerchuk was already in fast decline.)

I realize my opinion might be in the minority, but yes I would take 31-year-old Paul Kariya over 25-year-old Dale Hawerchuk.

Hmmm.............now I've heard you rail a bit on Hawerchuk before Panther, but have never really heard the praise for a post-peak Kariya, not to mention comparing him favourably to a prime Hawerchuk.

Alright look, I'll concur that an older Kariya might have been an asset on the bench for the coach, after all Nashville was a young team and they needed a leader. You never really thought of Kariya as much of a leader any other time, but alright then, I'll take Trotz's word for it. He led. Then again, a lot of older guys do when they are on a younger team. It isn't unusual. I'm not even sure it is something we should even give them extra credit for.

That being said, here is how I look at Kariya's career and the decline:

1995-'96 - Comes out flying that year. 50 goals, 108 points and on the NHL radar. The fact that he was injured for the 1996 World Cup hurt Canada, I think.

1996-'97 - His best year. He was just so dynamic that year. 99 points in 68 games. Ask your average NHL fan and they'd have put him slightly more important than his linemate Selanne, which is saying something. Kariya just had a dimension that was almost unmatched. It is as if he put together his speed and lethal wrist shot all in one. Remember that overtime goal in the playoffs against the Coyotes? That is the Kariya I am talking about.

1997-'98 - He held out, a dumb thing to do in my mind, but when he came back he picked everything right back up. He was explosive, thank God we had him for the Olympics........until Suter puts him out of commission.

This was his first decline:

1998-'99 - Has a great year, but puts up the quietest 101 point season of all-time. It seemed clear Selanne was the bread and butter.

1999-'00 - Still putting up good points alongside Selanne, but he just wasn't the story in the NHL anymore. In between his holdout and the Suter injury Jaromir Jagr took off running with the mantle as NHL's best player, something we thought Kariya might claim.

His next decline:

2000-'03 - Losing Selanne in 2001 hurt him. He wasn't the same. He was a perimeter player on a team of nobodies. Even in 2003 at a time when he had a goalie that was possessed on his team he still didn't take the mantle and carry his team. I was waiting for it to happen and it never did. 12 points on a team that goes to Game 7 of the Cup final? Even before Stevens nailed him it was obvious Kariya wasn't the same player anymore.

2003-'04 - An awful year. Canada doesn't even pick him for the World Cup in 2004 and there is little fuss about it.

2005-'10 - He just wasn't part of the NHL's conversation anymore. Not even thought about for the 2006 Olympics. Was a step down from his 2000-'03 version even.


Now, take all this into context too. I know Kariya didn't always have a lot of help, especially once Selanne left. However, that's Hawerchuk's Winnipeg career in a nutshell. A decade of playing on a mediocre team with (gasp) Paul MacLean as your next highest scorer is going to mean the offensive load is going to be on your back constantly, and it was. This might be what burnt Hawerchuk out, although he was still quite good on Buffalo.

To say Kariya did more for his teams than Hawerchuk is false I believe. Hawerchuk was carrying that team to respectability each year. He never had a winger in Winnipeg worth mentioning.

I think if you want to compare a prime Hawerchuk vs. Kariya you have to look at 1997 with Kariya. Even then it just wasn't as long as Hawerchuk's.