Your theory on why Dale Hawerchuk had to wait an extra year for induction to the HHOF

[Big Phil]

Alright, so Hawerchuk retired in 1997 as well as Savard and Mullen. While we're at it, Neal Broten retired in 1997 as well. There was an article in the Hockey News that summer talking about how in 2000 Hawerchuk will get into the HHOF while Broten won't.

In 2000 Savard and Mullen got the call. No issues there. However, despite there still being room, Hawerchuk didn't get the call. He waited until 2001.

For a guy like Hawerchuk he was someone you just thought would be an automatic lock right away. Oh to be a fly on the wall and hear the reasons why Hawerchuk wasn't good enough in 2000. Because that's what the committee must have thought. They must not have thought he was good enough to get in for some reason. 12 months later they thought he was. It doesn't make sense.

Click to read more...

 

[ForsbergForever]

The biggest knock against him that I can think of is that he never won any individual awards of note, aside from the Calder and never really had much playoff success either. He was a member of the '87 and '91 Canada Cup teams though, so that had to be worth something, I guess it came down to his CV lacking one or two big accomplishments. Savard has nothing over Hawerchuk though, Mullen has the American angel working for him though...

 

[Big Phil]

The biggest knock against him that I can think of is that he never won any individual awards of note, aside from the Calder and never really had much playoff success either. He was a member of the '87 and '91 Canada Cup teams though, so that had to be worth something, I guess it came down to his CV lacking one or two big accomplishments. Savard has nothing over Hawerchuk though, Mullen has the American angel working for him though...

That's the thing, neither of them were better than Hawerchuk. Mullen for sure wasn't, I guess someone can make a case for Savard, they were close, but it doesn't make any sense to me to leave a couple spots open on the ballot and not put Hawerchuk in there. What were they waiting for? All of the sudden a year later they came to and realized he had been a star?

 

[IComeInPeace]

49 points in 38 playoff games on a pretty bad Jets team is nothing to scoff at, in an era when playoff PPG for many players dropped from the regular season.

Even when he went to Buffalo he put up some good playoff numbers when he was getting older (34 points in 28 games).

Hawerchuk was a great player in the 'Peg.

He was a very good player in Buffalo.

Not a lot of people saw a tonne of him in his Winnipeg days.

Many were left with their impressions being formed based upon his Sabres days. It might have been better if his game had really dropped off, so you could easily say 'he's not the same player...'

But since he was very good still, you still thought you were seeing a pretty much prime Hawerchuk, and that may have affected his HHOF induction.

My theory anyways.

 

[IComeInPeace]

Anyone know what kind of condition Hawerchuk kept himself in...?

I was living in St Louis when he was there briefly, and couldn't believe how slow he had become (I know he was never known for his speed). He looked almost like Brad Park towards the end of his career.

 

[Mynameismark*]

Simple. They messed up. He was a first ballot entry no doubt.

 

[The Panther]

Joey Mullen getting in immediately is due to his being American (that's not a bad thing; it does make him more unique). He likely was in eventually, anyway.

Savard is a no-brainer, but yes, it is odd that -- if there was space -- Hawerchuk wasn't in and Savard was. They strike me as two very comparable players. Savard was probably a bit better offensively (certainly stickhandling), and Hawerchuk had a few more intangibles (could win faceoffs and check, if necessary), but very little to choose between them.

Also, you can't say that either one was a 'Golden Boy' in the boys-club social circle of Hall of Fame members. Neither player was known to be particularly social, or popular in a room of equals.

I wonder if Hawerchuk was getting slapped by ex-referees? It was no secret that Hawerchuk was the most disliked NHL player by referees in the 80s/early 90s. They pretty much all despised him. But you wouldn't think that would be enough to keep him out... so, I dunno.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He didn't win a Cup and Savard did? Kind of a dumb reason, but something the HHOF would care about.

 

[Sens Rule]

Why should we expect the HHOF committee to be logical? They have never been... Ever. Hawerchuk waiting a year is not due to his play not being of a high enough caliber... It is just the committee being the committee.

Even in other Halls of Fame like baseball... Which has an actual prestige of being a first time HHOFer... Odd things happen.

Asking why Hawerchuk was out and Savard and Mullen in is pointless debate really if you argue merits. A committee of so few people in hockey means odd things happen. In baseball a huge voting committee in baseball has a few idiots that don't vote for a Willie Mays or Greg Maddux type on the first ballot when they should be unanimous... Even if there are 1000 voters.

If hockey had 1000 media members voting some idiot would have not voted for Orr or Gretzky (Stan Fischler?) just to be a contrarian or for some agenda.

Hawerchuk is a no-brainer HHOFer. If a committee didn't vote for him the first time when there were not 4 better players it is on the committee not due to anything Hawerchuk failed to accomplish in his career.

 

[Elvis P]

Why should we expect the HHOF committee to be logical? They have never been... Ever. ...

Agreed. If they don't like you or your team, or you don't have playoff success, they vote against you. That's how it is in sports. Why not just accept it?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Anyone know what kind of condition Hawerchuk kept himself in...?

I was living in St Louis when he was there briefly, and couldn't believe how slow he had become (I know he was never known for his speed). He looked almost like Brad Park towards the end of his career.

I don't know about his conditioning but it was a degenerative hip condition that ended his career one year later.. so yeah.. that probably slowed him down significantly.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think ducky was one of those guys where in his prime there was no doubt he was a first ballot HHOFer., assuming he didn't retire early or fall off a cliff. just like there was no question about yzerman or modano or forsberg or today jonathan toews and stamkos.

but this shows that time passes and memories are weird things and politics are politics. hawerchuk was a team canada guy-- big big mark in his favour. he also had a signature skill: phenomenal PP point guy, as a forward. but 2000 is a lot of years later than '91, and more than a decade after '85. and that's a lot of time to go over his case and ask questions. why did his teams basically do no better than marcel dionne's in the playoffs? was he a guy who racked up superstar points by default (note that our last memory of prime hawerchuk was lafontaine outscoring him by 50 points)?

there is no way mullen wasn't going to be first ballot. the american thing was too important for the game's big picture interests (esp during another round of expansion), and the underdog story guaranteed coverage in the sports pages. that's US sports pages, where "first ballot" means something to a baseball-educated audience.

and i think becoming eligible alongside savard is the worst thing that could have happened to hawerchuk's HHOF chances. any other peer (even stastny, who obviously has his own national storyline) and i think he's in on the first try. but we were just as far, if not farther, from savard's prime/peak but in 2000 we still remember it because he was such a visually captivating player. plus he had the playoff success. much easier to say "well savvy ran intothe oilers every year [read: in the third round]" than "hawerchuk couldn't get past alberta [read: always bounced in the first round]." and even if we can obviously look back and see that savard had a much better core behind him, and a much weaker division during the divisional seeding era (note: long gone by 2000), that's still basically the only guy where you could say "if he's the standard for a franchise center, maybe we need to think about hawerchuk's warts for another year."

my theory, anyway. maybe that's giving the committee too much credit for thinking. or maybe not enough: maybe they just held back ducky for a year to make it a small class so as not take attention away from the joey mullen USA USA narrative.

 

[MS]

I don't see Hawerchuk as an 'obvious' first-ballot HHOFer. He's in the bottom half of guys in the Hall, for sure.

No playoff success, no individual awards aside from the Calder, 1x 2nd team All-Star (and was only twice in the top 5 vote-getters at C, so this isn't a Gretzky/Lemieux thing). 4x top-10 in scoring. Did literally nothing of note after his 25th birthday.

He belongs, but I'm happy for them to wait a year or two on a guy like this. Hawerchuk had a worse career than Kariya and Kariya isn't getting in at all it seems.

The real question is how the hell Mullen got in on the first ballot. And yeah, was probably a USA-boosting selection.

 

[Big Phil]

Anyone know what kind of condition Hawerchuk kept himself in...?

I was living in St Louis when he was there briefly, and couldn't believe how slow he had become (I know he was never known for his speed). He looked almost like Brad Park towards the end of his career.

He didn't have blinding speed, but I always thought he was quick and shifty. Sort of reminds me of Mark Recchi that way.

I don't see Hawerchuk as an 'obvious' first-ballot HHOFer. He's in the bottom half of guys in the Hall, for sure.

No playoff success, no individual awards aside from the Calder, 1x 2nd team All-Star (and was only twice in the top 5 vote-getters at C, so this isn't a Gretzky/Lemieux thing). 4x top-10 in scoring. Did literally nothing of note after his 25th birthday.

He belongs, but I'm happy for them to wait a year or two on a guy like this. Hawerchuk had a worse career than Kariya and Kariya isn't getting in at all it seems.

The real question is how the hell Mullen got in on the first ballot. And yeah, was probably a USA-boosting selection.

I'll take Hawerchuk's career of Kariya's without even blinking. I'll also take Hawerchuk on my team without a second thought over Kariya. Hawerchuk had more "great" seasons. Or more elite ones.

Besides, take a look at 1988 for example. Hawerchuk has a 121 point year but he finishes 6th in all-star voting at center. Why is that? Well.........

Lemieux, Gretzky, Savard, Yzerman and Stastny were all ahead of him. There was a logjam at center. Put it this way, Savard and Stastny have one 2nd team all-star between them.

I don't see how Hawerchuk had any worse of a career as Savard, Stastny or Perreault for that matter. Very comparable and he was a guy who was assumed to be in the second he got the chance. I just think the HHOF was playing games in 2000. Sort of a "I hold the cards" type of thing and it was akin to a person not feeling like doing something but having no logical explanation why. Sort of a "because I said so" type of thing.

 

[VanIslander]

Ukrainians in Winnipeg are usually overprivileged in society, no?

... well,...

no Stanley Cup, no 1st team all-star selections (Gretz & Mario generation), no major individual awards...

eh,...

"He could wait".

 

[MS]

I'll take Hawerchuk's career of Kariya's without even blinking. I'll also take Hawerchuk on my team without a second thought over Kariya. Hawerchuk had more "great" seasons. Or more elite ones.

He did?

Top-10 scoring finishes :

Kariya - 3, 3, 4, 7
Hawerchuk - 3, 4, 7, 9

Adjusted points :

Hawerchuk

103
101
86
85
82
81
80
78

Kariya

115
104
103
94
90
83
77
72

Kariya at his absolute peak was to me a more dominant player relative to the league around him than Hawerchuk was.

 

[ICM1970]

Maybe it was because of that awful song about him that used to be played on Musique Plus all the time for a while, lol.

 

[Voight]

This thread has once again reminded me of how sacked the 80's were with centers.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Hawerchuk had a worse career than Kariya and Kariya isn't getting in at all it seems.

funnily enough, kariya was someone i was also thinking of earlier when i was talking about guys who in their peaks nobody doubted we were watching a hall of famer unless he fell off a cliff or retired early. but then...

it's interesting that their career arcs are almost identical. (and no, i don't think those adjusted points totals you posted paint an accurate picture.) except that when hawerchuk started to decline it didn't seem like that big of a deal because so did stastny and savard. it happened to trottier, it happened to clarke. it happens.

but when kariya declined, and i think we forget that kariya had a lot of "late hawerchuk prime"-type years after gary suter (including a nice turn in nashville) we don't hold kariya to the longevity standard of 70s/80s stars. dionne and robinson were freaks in their time for their longevity. but by the early 2000s, you expect guys to stay elite (real elite, not just hawerchuk-in-buffalo-level-good) well into their 30s because messier did it, oates did it, francis did it, yzerman did it, etc.

and maybe that's not fair, but i think guys need to be judged according to the standards of longevity of their time.

also, for the record, i have '85 hawerchuk higher than any point of kariya's career.

but this was posed on the main board thread: are we seeing another hawerchuk career in tavares right now? (and follow up: if he maintains his current level for a couple of seasons, will we think we're watching a hall of famer?)

 

[Ralph Spoilsport]

My theory is there were too many players dividing the Committee. Previous year the Hall inducted Gretzky and only Gretzky, waiving his waiting period. That must have added to the backlog. In fact from '94 to '01 there was never more than two inductees per year, including a few other years besides Wayne's with only one (Veterans Committee not included). Seems the Committee just couldn't agree.

Who knows what other players might have been nominated or how the vote might have been split. Ducky may have been just a vote or two short of 75% for all we know. Maybe a couple of Vachon supporters cost him.

 

[ForsbergForever]

Maybe it was because of that awful song about him that used to be played on Musique Plus all the time for a while, lol.

Actually its the name of the Québécois band "Les Dale Hawerchuk"...

 

[Big Phil]

funnily enough, kariya was someone i was also thinking of earlier when i was talking about guys who in their peaks nobody doubted we were watching a hall of famer unless he fell off a cliff or retired early. but then...

it's interesting that their career arcs are almost identical. (and no, i don't think those adjusted points totals you posted paint an accurate picture.) except that when hawerchuk started to decline it didn't seem like that big of a deal because so did stastny and savard. it happened to trottier, it happened to clarke. it happens.

but when kariya declined, and i think we forget that kariya had a lot of "late hawerchuk prime"-type years after gary suter (including a nice turn in nashville) we don't hold kariya to the longevity standard of 70s/80s stars. dionne and robinson were freaks in their time for their longevity. but by the early 2000s, you expect guys to stay elite (real elite, not just hawerchuk-in-buffalo-level-good) well into their 30s because messier did it, oates did it, francis did it, yzerman did it, etc.

and maybe that's not fair, but i think guys need to be judged according to the standards of longevity of their time.

also, for the record, i have '85 hawerchuk higher than any point of kariya's career.

but this was posed on the main board thread: are we seeing another hawerchuk career in tavares right now? (and follow up: if he maintains his current level for a couple of seasons, will we think we're watching a hall of famer?)

Tavares might be the new Hawerchuk. Sort of a solo act on a team that is desperate for him. Never on a Cup contender, routinely a top scorer. Yeah, we'll see, but I can see it.

He did?

Top-10 scoring finishes :

Kariya - 3, 3, 4, 7
Hawerchuk - 3, 4, 7, 9

Adjusted points :

Hawerchuk

103
101
86
85
82
81
80
78

Kariya

115
104
103
94
90
83
77
72

Kariya at his absolute peak was to me a more dominant player relative to the league around him than Hawerchuk was.

That is VERY forgiving in Kariya's favour. Sorry, I just don't see it. Hawerchuk is comfortably in the HHOF. Kariya isn't in there yet. Hawerchuk was much better all around than Kariya. He also was better for longer as well. Not to mention a much bigger logjam at his position than Kariya saw. The centers in the 1980s and early 1990s are the best crop we ever saw. Hawerchuk was still a top 10 scorer in his 11th season. He was an elite - or close to elite - player for 13 seasons. I don't think we can say that about Kariya.

While Hawerchuk is no Messier when it comes to the postseason, the differences are stark compared to Kariya too. There's a reason Hawerchuk is in and Kariya is not.

 

[The Panther]

That is VERY forgiving in Kariya's favour. Sorry, I just don't see it. Hawerchuk is comfortably in the HHOF. Kariya isn't in there yet. Hawerchuk was much better all around than Kariya. He also was better for longer as well. Not to mention a much bigger logjam at his position than Kariya saw. The centers in the 1980s and early 1990s are the best crop we ever saw. Hawerchuk was still a top 10 scorer in his 11th season. He was an elite - or close to elite - player for 13 seasons. I don't think we can say that about Kariya.

While Hawerchuk is no Messier when it comes to the postseason, the differences are stark compared to Kariya too. There's a reason Hawerchuk is in and Kariya is not.

I think I part with Big Phil on this one. I agree that Hawerchuk was great for a bit longer than Kariya -- but not much longer. Kariya was all-world from 1995 to 2007, as I see it. With Nashville 2005-2007 Kariya was leading a 1st-place team in scoring and acting as team captain. Age 30 was actually the last time Hawerchuk was great, and for Kariya it's about age 32. (Thinking twice about it, I'm not sure I do agree that Hawerchuk was greater for longer...)

Beyond that, it's all about Kariya. Much better skater, more dynamic player, more playoff success. There was a period (circa 1997) when Kariya was very much in the conversation as the game's greatest player, which Hawerchuk never was (and I don't think would have been without Gretzky, either).

 

[tony d]

Perhaps playing in Winnipeg for most of his career hurt him. That said Hawerchuk should have been a 1st ballot Hall of Famer easily.

 

[Flapjack]

He didn't win a Cup and Savard did? Kind of a dumb reason, but something the HHOF would care about.

That would be my guess too.

Mullen - 3 cups
Savard - 1 cup
Hawerchuk - 0