Your theory on why Dale Hawerchuk had to wait an extra year for induction to the HHOF

[EpochLink]

Hawerchuck top six when he played for the Jets...

Paul Maclean, Brian Mullen, Thomas Steen, Laurie Boschman, Doug Smail...not really gangbusters but solid for what he had..

 

[trenton1]

We all know Kariya played during his peak with another HOF talent in Selanne. Who was Hawerchuk's HOF talent in Winnipeg during his peak? Thomas Steen was a solid player but I think he fell a little short of Selanne. Carlisle was a little past his prime. Simply put, the Jets were pretty bad other than Hawerchuk for almost the entirety of his tenure there. The drafting of Hawerchuk and his performance in his first season, however, gave them one of--if not THE biggest turnaround points-wise from one season to the next in NHL history. In some regards, Hawerchuk's immediate impact hurt their ability to draft very high and build him a better supporting cast.

 

[Mynameismark*]

We all know Kariya played during his peak with another HOF talent in Selanne. Who was Hawerchuk's HOF talent in Winnipeg during his peak? Thomas Steen was a solid player but I think he fell a little short of Selanne. Carlisle was a little past his prime. Simply put, the Jets were pretty bad other than Hawerchuk for almost the entirety of his tenure there. The drafting of Hawerchuk and his performance in his first season, however, gave them one of--if not THE biggest turnaround points-wise from one season to the next in NHL history. In some regards, Hawerchuk's immediate impact hurt their ability to draft very high and build him a better supporting cast.

True.

Also for anyone to say Hawerchuk was not a top 5 forward at any time in his career is ignorant. Yeah Kurri and Messier racked up major point totals but Hawerchuk probably would have had more than both had he played with Wayne. Hell he had more than they did at times while playing with nobodies in comparison.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Alright, so Hawerchuk retired in 1997 as well as Savard and Mullen. While we're at it, Neal Broten retired in 1997 as well. There was an article in the Hockey News that summer talking about how in 2000 Hawerchuk will get into the HHOF while Broten won't.

In 2000 Savard and Mullen got the call. No issues there. However, despite there still being room, Hawerchuk didn't get the call. He waited until 2001.

For a guy like Hawerchuk he was someone you just thought would be an automatic lock right away. Oh to be a fly on the wall and hear the reasons why Hawerchuk wasn't good enough in 2000. Because that's what the committee must have thought. They must not have thought he was good enough to get in for some reason. 12 months later they thought he was. It doesn't make sense.

Maybe because of his cheap shot on Gretzky in the '87 playoffs? (I think it was '87?)

 

[Thenameless]

True.

Also for anyone to say Hawerchuk was not a top 5 forward at any time in his career is ignorant. Yeah Kurri and Messier racked up major point totals but Hawerchuk probably would have had more than both had he played with Wayne. Hell he had more than they did at times while playing with nobodies in comparison.

I'm in agreement with this. Hawerchuk was basically a one-man-show on a crappy team.

On a different note, a while back I watched him play in a Legends vs. Police game, and he was fantastic. He was younger than a lot of the other legends playing like Gilbert Perrault and Marcel Dionne, but compared to the cops who were basically all in their prime, Hawerchuk was ridiculously fast and skilled. It was a pleasure to watch him - something I never got to see live when he played in the NHL.

I agree that the Hall Committee dropped the ball when it comes to him. He's easily first ballot.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

"Zero" is probably over-stating it a bit -- he was 1-point from leading his team in scoring in 2003, and outside of that (successful) spring scored 27 points in 25 playoff games.

The difference here is that Kariya was briefly considered the (co-) top player in the game, while Hawerchuk never was, and Kariya captained his team to the 7th game of the Finals, while Hawerchuk made the 2nd-round a couple of times in 16 years.

Anyway, back to Ovie vs. Lafleur...

okay, moved from the other thread so as not to derail.

do you really think that kariya was any closer to being the top player in the game in '97, when he finished 3rd in points and 2nd in hart voting, than hawerchuk in '85, when he finished 3rd in points and 2nd in hart voting?

 

[The Panther]

okay, moved from the other thread so as not to derail.

Thanks.

do you really think that kariya was any closer to being the top player in the game in '97, when he finished 3rd in points and 2nd in hart voting, than hawerchuk in '85, when he finished 3rd in points and 2nd in hart voting?

Yes.

From Bangor Daily News, Dec. 1997:
"Kariya, the former University of Maine star who is the only freshman to win the Hobey Baker Award (1992-93), was rated by The Hockey News magazine as the best player in the world at the outset of the season."

(reference: http://archive.bangordailynews.com/1997/12/13/paul-kariyas-signing-good-news-for-nhl/ )



Question: When was Dale Hawerchuk ever rated by anyone as "the best player in the world"?

 

[30Yonge]

Since this thread has already been bumped.

As to Hawerchuk's lack of success in the playoffs. Buffalo had some bad injury luck in 3/5 of those years.
91-92 Molgilny 2 playoff games, Audette 0 (1/2 RWs 4/5 in scoring)
93-94 LaFontaine missed most of season and all of playoffs
94-95 Hawerchuk out a month before playoffs, plays 2 playoff games

He didn't exactly catch a break in 92-93 either when Andreychuk (1.2 PPG in 61 games)
was traded to Toronto for Fuhr (playoffs: 875 SV% w/ .846 SV% vs Montreal) at the deadline.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Question: When was Dale Hawerchuk ever rated by anyone as "the best player in the world"?

Oh come on.. you know why this is a silly question to ask.

Just because Kariya had the good fortune of Lemieux retiring so that he could be in the mix as the best player in the world doesn't make him better.

If Kariya's prime overlapped with Gretzky's no one would have said it about him, either.

 

[Jumptheshark]

I had no problem him waiting a year.

Savard was special and the things he did by himself (who remember Gallivan saying the "Savardian spimmerramma")

Mullen was a small forward who proved not only could they play--they could play and coming from Hell's Kitchen?

Take a look how long a guy like Glenn Anderson had to wait and Howerchuck scored just 20 more goals.

 

[Voight]

I had no problem him waiting a year.

Savard was special and the things he did by himself (who remember Gallivan saying the "Savardian spimmerramma")

Mullen was a small forward who proved not only could they play--they could play and coming from Hell's Kitchen?

Take a look how long a guy like Glenn Anderson had to wait and Howerchuck scored just 20 more goals.

Anderson was more of a passenger than Hawerchuk was, however.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Anderson was more of a passenger than Hawerchuk was, however.

Being from Edmonton--then you are calling Kurri a passenger as well? Anderson had an all around game

here is another look at things.


1981 draft
Ron Francis
Dale Hawerchuk
Al MacInnis
Chris Chelios
Grant Fuhr

how many of you take Hawerchuck 1st--how many of you take him 2nd--how many of you would take him 5th?

All hall of famers--for me Hawerchuck is not in the same discussion as the other four. Francis was a quiet guy who people did not realize how good he was and could play all areas of the game

 

[Big Phil]

Maybe because of his cheap shot on Gretzky in the '87 playoffs? (I think it was '87?)

To be honest, even a hockey historian junkie like me can hardly picture or remember that happening. I guess that was because of what happened shortly after. Gretzky won the Cup with 34 playoff points, then he and Hawerchuk were part of the 1987 Canada Cup team while Gretzky won again in 1988. It is the hits like Suter and such that stick with us because it had a lot of bearing on Gretzky's career.

From Bangor Daily News, Dec. 1997:
"Kariya, the former University of Maine star who is the only freshman to win the Hobey Baker Award (1992-93), was rated by The Hockey News magazine as the best player in the world at the outset of the season."

(reference: http://archive.bangordailynews.com/1997/12/13/paul-kariyas-signing-good-news-for-nhl/ )



Question: When was Dale Hawerchuk ever rated by anyone as "the best player in the world"?

I remember that. It is a shame Kariya read his press clippings too much because he held out part of the 1997-'98 campaign and then got drilled by Suter to miss the rest of the season, including the Olympics. By then we saw Jagr get another scoring title and then just surge to heights that clearly separated himself from the rest of the pack in 1999.

Basically we are saying that Kariya was among a handful of names in the summer of 1997 to be considered the best in the world. You had Jagr, Lindros and probably Kariya as those often touted names. Lemieux was still the best player during 1996-'97 and as good as Kariya's season was it probably wasn't any better than Jagr's. Yet we all saw that this was a guy who could claim that title. I don't disagree with that and you can use it in his favour but there was never a season that Kariya played where people thought he was the best player in the game. Most of this due to his fault.

But in all seriousness, Hawerchuk faced off against a prime Gretzky and Lemieux. There is no way he is the best player in the game. But in 1985 he probably is the 2nd best, which is good considering who #1 was.

In all honesty what does Hawerchuk not have in his career that Savard, Perreault, Stastny, etc. did? They all got in first ballot, how is Hawerchuk a guy who makes them think about for a year? I get that Mullen had that whole "American with 500 goals" thing that the media loved but even objectively with that big swooping love-in for Mullen how could anyone have thought he had a better career than Hawerchuk? I can see if someone thinks Savard was similar, but Mullen?

 

[Big Phil]

Being from Edmonton--then you are calling Kurri a passenger as well? Anderson had an all around game

here is another look at things.


1981 draft
Ron Francis
Dale Hawerchuk
Al MacInnis
Chris Chelios
Grant Fuhr

how many of you take Hawerchuck 1st--how many of you take him 2nd--how many of you would take him 5th?

All hall of famers--for me Hawerchuck is not in the same discussion as the other four. Francis was a quiet guy who people did not realize how good he was and could play all areas of the game

I don't know, is that really fair to him? Look at those names. All of them are lock cinch HHOFers. All got in right away. Hawerchuk was better than Francis in his prime and from 1981-'91 he was CLEARLY better. The argument if there is one for Francis is that Hawerchuk faltered after 1994 and retired in 1997 while Francis was steady his whole career. I honestly don't think it is crazy to say Hawerchuk had the better career. I think he did to be honest.

MacInnis and Chelios also had the longevity in their favour, plus they won the Norris once and three times respectively. So give them the top two slots here. As much as I love Fuhr, is he a better goalie than Hawerchuk was a center? Honestly, if you put Hawerchuk at #3 is it that insane?

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Being from Edmonton--then you are calling Kurri a passenger as well? Anderson had an all around game

here is another look at things.


1981 draft
Ron Francis
Dale Hawerchuk
Al MacInnis
Chris Chelios
Grant Fuhr

how many of you take Hawerchuck 1st--how many of you take him 2nd--how many of you would take him 5th?

All hall of famers--for me Hawerchuck is not in the same discussion as the other four. Francis was a quiet guy who people did not realize how good he was and could play all areas of the game

hawerchuk's peak was higher than Francis. Francis obviously benefited from playing with some of best players the game has ever seen in the second half of his career which boosted his point totals. He does deserve credit for longevity though.

MacInnis and Chelios are some of the greatest defenseman of all-time. No shame in Hawerchuk being a lesser player than them. Not sure about Fuhr though. Great goalie, but his peak wasn't all that long and he wasn't one of the top goalies in the game for a very long time either. Anyways, implying that 4 of the players drafted the same year as Hawerchuk and you consider are better than him is not much of an argument against Hawerchuk being a first ballot Hall of Famer. It's quite silly and irrelevant actually.

Also implying that Anderson was in the same league as Hawerchuk because their goal totals were similar...well Ask yourself how many points and goals would Anderson have if he spent his prime years on a team of lesser players like Hawerchuk did? My guess is 100 less goals and 150 - 200 less points. Anderson was a passenger and is very fortunate (and not deserving) of being in the Hall of Fame. Incredibly short peak relative to Hawerchuk and Ducky's point totals blow him out of the water.

Kurri is on a much higher level offensively than Anderson so it's ridiculous to bring him up. Just look at the numbers.

With regard to Kariya, I'm not seeing these intangibles he brought to the Ducks or Nashville that brought these teams to another level that Hawerchuk supposedly failed to bring the Jets to. The Ducks failed to make the playoffs more often than not with Kariya in the lineup and only had success in 2003 because of the goalie, not because Paul Kariya took them on his back. Hawerchuk did not have the benefit of a Giguere on his playoff teams.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

To be honest, even a hockey historian junkie like me can hardly picture or remember that happening. I guess that was because of what happened shortly after. Gretzky won the Cup with 34 playoff points, then he and Hawerchuk were part of the 1987 Canada Cup team while Gretzky won again in 1988. It is the hits like Suter and such that stick with us because it had a lot of bearing on Gretzky's career.



I remember that. It is a shame Kariya read his press clippings too much because he held out part of the 1997-'98 campaign and then got drilled by Suter to miss the rest of the season, including the Olympics. By then we saw Jagr get another scoring title and then just surge to heights that clearly separated himself from the rest of the pack in 1999.

Basically we are saying that Kariya was among a handful of names in the summer of 1997 to be considered the best in the world. You had Jagr, Lindros and probably Kariya as those often touted names. Lemieux was still the best player during 1996-'97 and as good as Kariya's season was it probably wasn't any better than Jagr's. Yet we all saw that this was a guy who could claim that title. I don't disagree with that and you can use it in his favour but there was never a season that Kariya played where people thought he was the best player in the game. Most of this due to his fault.

But in all seriousness, Hawerchuk faced off against a prime Gretzky and Lemieux. There is no way he is the best player in the game. But in 1985 he probably is the 2nd best, which is good considering who #1 was.

In all honesty what does Hawerchuk not have in his career that Savard, Perreault, Stastny, etc. did? They all got in first ballot, how is Hawerchuk a guy who makes them think about for a year? I get that Mullen had that whole "American with 500 goals" thing that the media loved but even objectively with that big swooping love-in for Mullen how could anyone have thought he had a better career than Hawerchuk? I can see if someone thinks Savard was similar, but Mullen?

Apparently having a cool move and growing up in a low income area is worth a few extra points according to a few people around here.

 

[Voight]

Being from Edmonton--then you are calling Kurri a passenger as well? Anderson had an all around game

Well no, considering Andersons numbers took a nosedive after leaving Edmonton, where as Kurri remained a pretty decent point producer after he left.

 

[The Panther]

I cannot take the suggestion that "Anderson was a passenger" seriously, sorry.

 

[Big Phil]

Apparently having a cool move and growing up in a low income area is worth a few extra points according to a few people around here.

You're talking about Savard I guess? I mean look, he and Hawerchuk had careers of similar career value, so I have no problem with both getting in right away, but that was sort of my point, Hawerchuk was at least right there with Savard, so how is he not 1st ballot too?

 

[Voight]

I cannot take the suggestion that "Anderson was a passenger" seriously, sorry.

Didn't say he was a passenger, he was however more of a passenger than Hawerchuk ever was.

 

[trentmccleary]

You're talking about Savard I guess? I mean look, he and Hawerchuk had careers of similar career value, so I have no problem with both getting in right away, but that was sort of my point, Hawerchuk was at least right there with Savard, so how is he not 1st ballot too?

Would voters have considered it a bit of a Forsberg vs. Sundin comparison?

I'm not saying PPG mattered back then, but it may have been the basis of a gut feeling that essentially overlaps with PPG. We might find that their perceptions were that Hawerchuk made the top-10 in some cases because he played 80 games and other players didn't. Meanwhile, Savard matched Hawerchuk's peak seasons while missing out on 3 more big seasons in the late 1980's due to injuries. Maybe Savard was considered better by them because of that.

All of these top-10's occurred in the 1980's...

Hawerchuk
Top-G = 3 times
Top-10 Pts = 4 times
Top-10 PPG = 2 times

Savard
Top-G = 1 time
Top-10 Pts = 5 times
Top-10 PPG = 7 times

Also, I'm not sure that we can discount the importance of the Cup. I think that the small league and the small concentration of stacked teams through expansions reinforced the idea that a Cup was something a HHOF'er needs to cap his career off. Either the league was so small, that just about everybody won. Or it was so stratified, that there weren't many stars on the bottom feeders to choose from anyways. 15 teams were added in what? 13 years. By the 1990's, you're starting to see how easy is it is for a star player to finish their career without a Cup.

 

[Voight]

Would voters have considered it a bit of a Forsberg vs. Sundin comparison?

I'm not saying PPG mattered back then, but it may have been the basis of a gut feeling that essentially overlaps with PPG. We might find that their perceptions were that Hawerchuk made the top-10 in some cases because he played 80 games and other players didn't. Meanwhile, Savard matched Hawerchuk's peak seasons while missing out on 3 more big seasons in the late 1980's due to injuries. Maybe Savard was considered better by them because of that.

All of these top-10's occurred in the 1980's...

Hawerchuk
Top-G = 3 times
Top-10 Pts = 4 times
Top-10 PPG = 2 times

Savard
Top-G = 1 time
Top-10 Pts = 5 times
Top-10 PPG = 7 times

Also, I'm not sure that we can discount the importance of the Cup. I think that the small league and the small concentration of stacked teams through expansions reinforced the idea that a Cup was something a HHOF'er needs to cap his career off. Either the league was so small, that just about everybody won. Or it was so stratified, that there weren't many stars on the bottom feeders to choose from anyways. 15 teams were added in what? 13 years. By the 1990's, you're starting to see how easy is it is for a star player to finish their career without a Cup.

Agree with the last part, I really think Savards cup win helped him, even if he wasn't "The Guy" or one of the most important players on the team. Likewise, Mullen being the first American to reach X Milestone and Y Milestone really helped his case.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

here is another look at things.


1981 draft
Ron Francis
Dale Hawerchuk
Al MacInnis
Chris Chelios
Grant Fuhr

how many of you take Hawerchuck 1st--how many of you take him 2nd--how many of you would take him 5th?

no higher than 3rd, no lower than 4th.

here's the way i see it: ron francis captained a weaker team in a competitive conference, made the playoffs 5 times, and won a single round, before he was traded after just under ten seasons.

dale hawerchuk captained a weaker team in an even more competitive conference, made the playoffs every season, won a single round before he was traded after nine seasons.

hawerchuk: 38 games, 16 goals, 33 assists, 49 points in winnipeg. between '82 and '90, 5th in playoff PPG among all players with at least 20 games played.

rank | player | games | goals | assists | points | PPG
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 126 | 80 | 180 | 260 | 2.06
2 | Barry Pederson | 34 | 22 | 30 | 52 | 1.53
3 | Mark Messier | 136 | 73 | 117 | 190 | 1.40
4 | Jari Kurri | 137 | 87 | 103 | 190 | 1.39
5 | Dale Hawerchuk | 38 | 16 | 33 | 49 | 1.29
6 | Steve Yzerman | 32 | 16 | 25 | 41 | 1.28
7 | Denis Savard | 96 | 53 | 69 | 122 | 1.27
8 | Peter Stastny | 65 | 25 | 51 | 76 | 1.17
9 | Paul Coffey | 96 | 34 | 77 | 111 | 1.16
10 | Glenn Anderson | 137 | 70 | 88 | 158 | 1.15
11 | Mike Bossy | 78 | 50 | 40 | 90 | 1.15

in that same span, ron francis: 33 games, 8 goals, 14 assists, 22 points


obviously, after 1990, francis had the far better career. but look at that list of guys from the 1981 draft: ten years later, only macinnis was still on the team that drafted him. i think if you're choosing between 18 year olds, you're drafting them for what they do early on, not later in their careers. and furthermore, we all rag on phil housley, but hawerchuk netted a bona fide all-star and elite PMD and QB. francis, plus ulf samuelsson, netted a decent and promising pieces in cullen and zalapski, but far less proven ones.

hard to say how to value fuhr, but in no universe would i have taken francis over hawerchuk, even with the benefit of knowing that francis would pile up more assists than anyone not named wayne. that's crazy.

 

[Big Phil]

Would voters have considered it a bit of a Forsberg vs. Sundin comparison?

I'm not saying PPG mattered back then, but it may have been the basis of a gut feeling that essentially overlaps with PPG. We might find that their perceptions were that Hawerchuk made the top-10 in some cases because he played 80 games and other players didn't. Meanwhile, Savard matched Hawerchuk's peak seasons while missing out on 3 more big seasons in the late 1980's due to injuries. Maybe Savard was considered better by them because of that.

All of these top-10's occurred in the 1980's...

Hawerchuk
Top-G = 3 times
Top-10 Pts = 4 times
Top-10 PPG = 2 times

Savard
Top-G = 1 time
Top-10 Pts = 5 times
Top-10 PPG = 7 times

Also, I'm not sure that we can discount the importance of the Cup. I think that the small league and the small concentration of stacked teams through expansions reinforced the idea that a Cup was something a HHOF'er needs to cap his career off. Either the league was so small, that just about everybody won. Or it was so stratified, that there weren't many stars on the bottom feeders to choose from anyways. 15 teams were added in what? 13 years. By the 1990's, you're starting to see how easy is it is for a star player to finish their career without a Cup.

It is true Savard had a couple of years where he finishes higher if he isn't injured. I agree. Plus the playoffs he blows Hawerchuk out of the water. Now, I am fine with Savard getting in right away, I just see him similar to Hawerchuk and can't see why, even in 1997. The whole Cup thing was more of a mirage. Brad Park and Gilbert Perreault got in right away and was Perreault really much better than Hawerchuk? Plus Savard's Cup win was in 1993 with him injured the last two rounds.

I just would like to be a fly on the wall to hear that conversation. It isn't as if they didn't have room. If they filled up the 4 spots and Hawerchuk was the odd man out because of a logjam then I can accept that. But they had two available spots. What the committee said in 2000 and then in 2001 would be interesting to know. Why not let him in right away? Who was the guy who resisted and seemingly led others to do so?