Your Expectations

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I expect everyone to answer the wrong question.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I'm not constantly complaining! I've never complained about not Winning the cup while rebuilding. I don't live in Xbox land. I've played the Xbox 1/2 doz. times with my sons. Too many buttons for this old man.
I believe you are the one with unrealistic expectations. If you think every year the wings make the playoffs they have a legitimate chance of winning it all. Right now they look like they are in the middle of the pack. Especially as of late. With 5 straight losses.
You still have never really answered why you defend KH so vehemently. Other than saying because he's been so brilliant. I know you think he is brilliant. Why does it bother you if someone else doesn't.

I am not so much defending Holland as I am logic and reason. I would like to think our fan base has enough of a clue to recognize at least the obvious. The irony is that most here are so eager to post "They can't win" that the failed to even address the actual topic. This is supposed to be the fan base of the Detroit Red Wings?
The majority think we should fire the most successful GM in hockey. Most think Babcock should just go away. Most think our PP is playing 2 defensemen. Most here think blockbuster trades are the only way to build a team. Most think Holland should have had a closet full of Lidstroms waiting when he retired. Now being that he failed to do that people think he should just run out and get one. You would think in a town with the Lions that people would be capable of recognizing how well the Detroit Red Wings have treated them. Frankly I am embarrassed.

Below are a few things that any wings fan should know but most forum members do not.

If you think a #1 RHD is 100% necessary to win the cup you fail to recognize that hockey is a team game. You don't look smart when you post this 2,333,765,098 times.

A well coached, well structured team will win over a bunch of stat sheet superstars with no cohesion. Chemistry, Trust, and Discipline are far more important factors than right handedness if you want to make a run. Role players win championships.

Every prospect is not automatically better than every veteran. You don't build a team by waiving every veteran and promoting prospects who have not earned it. That is how you become Edmonton.

Experience is valuable and young players stand to gain a ton from being in the room with as many vets as possible. Guys like Bert, Cleary and Sammuelson have been extremely successful in their careers because they know how to be every day NHL players. Young players respect guys that have played 15 years in the league. It is smart to get young players exposed to the way they do things.

Your 8th defensemen isn't expected to put up 50 points.

Depth is good. Waiving players willy nilly is dumb. Players competing for jobs and IT is smart. Granting jobs to those who haven't earned them is dumb. Setting the bar high and pushing players to achieve is smart.

Hockey is a team game where players play roles. Some players are capable of playing different roles within their career. Development doesn't end in juniors.

Where you were drafted doesn't dictate how your career will play out. You can't predict the winner of the cup by how many 1st rd picks all the teams have.

Tanking is for losers.

Loyalty is a virtue. Players are people not horses. For every action there is a reaction.

The Detroit Red Wings have been and continue to be the best franchise in hockey. Their commitment to quality and excellence has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt for an extended period of time. Sports are very fluid. Players age, over excel, under perform, and get injured. No franchise can predict these things with 100% accuracy. The Wings do far better than most.

Holland has told the fan base very clearly that this is a "rebuild on the fly". He has also told you that making the playoffs is important to the franchise. He has said "if you get in anything can happen". This is true but it shouldn't be confused with the status of the team from Holland's perspective. He knows where he is at in the building process. He didn't tell you that they planned on winning the cup every year through the process. He told you that they were committed to making the playoffs while the reconstruction was ongoing. He has don't this before with remarkable results and now the team is trending up. There are a lot of words here and I predict people will not read the entire post before responding.

The original question was "What do you expect from a sports franchise"?

 

[Actual Thought*]

I expect everyone to answer the wrong question.

You could change every thread title to "Why the Red Wings Can't Win" and almost every post would be on topic.

 

[TatarTangle]

If you think a #1 RHD is 100% necessary to win the cup you fail to recognize that hockey is a team game. You don't look smart when you post this 2,333,765,098 times.

Dismissing right-handed shots because you don't know the advantages of having them, especially on defense, and using a blanketed statement like "hockey is a team game" as an argument doesn't make you look smart either bud.

edit: I'd be willing to bet there isn't a team that has won the Stanley Cup that didn't have a couple right-handed shots. But let's give the benefit of the doubt and say there were a couple. It's 99% necessary.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Dismissing right-handed shots because you don't know the advantages of having them, especially on defense, and using a blanketed statement like "hockey is a team game" as an argument doesn't make you look smart either bud.

edit: I'd be willing to bet there isn't a team that has won the Stanley Cup that didn't have a couple right-handed shots. But let's give the benefit of the doubt and say there were a couple. It's 99% necessary.

Lidstrom was a lefty. If you add Lidstrom in his prime to this roster are they a contender?

 

[TatarTangle]

Lidstrom was a lefty. If you add Lidstrom in his prime to this roster are they a contender?

Adding Lidstrom in his prime to virtually any team makes them a contender. What a redundant question. That's like asking if you think adding Yzerman to this team would make them a contender.

But back to the original subject at hand, don't think you're going to get out of this, I'd be willing to bet you can't give me a list of advantages of having RHS and RHD. I'll give you a break and all you have to do is list the advantages in the defensive zone. We won't address the other two, at least not yet. I'd also be willing to bet that there isn't a team that has won the Stanley Cup that didn't have a couple right-handed shots. History and stats are on my side. Your opinion is meaningless against those.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I am not so much defending Holland as I am logic and reason.

OK then, challenge accepted.

I would like to think our fan base has enough of a clue to recognize at least the obvious. The irony is that most here are so eager to post "They can't win" that the failed to even address the actual topic. This is supposed to be the fan base of the Detroit Red Wings?

Actually, I was one of the few pushing for an all-out youth movement after #5 retired. I got mocked for saying Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and Jurco belonged on the team two seasons ago. Those chickens came home to roost with all the injuries last year when Ken Holland's merry band of old, useless guys who belonged in the MEN'S LEAGUE that is the NHL were completely useless. In the end it was the youth movement in general and Gus Nyquist in particular who kept the playoff streak intact. It wasn't Todd Bertuzzi, Mikael Samuelsson, Jordin Tootoo, Dan Cleary, and Patrick Eaves who were winning games with Z and Pavs and Mule injured for large stretches.

Bottom line: when your GM says dumb **** about a MEN'S LEAGUE in order to explain why prospects aren't in the lineup and then said prospects punch your ticket to the playoffs you should be called to the carpet to explain your dumb ass statements.

The majority think we should fire the most successful GM in hockey. Most think Babcock should just go away. Most think our PP is playing 2 defensemen. Most here think blockbuster trades are the only way to build a team. Most think Holland should have had a closet full of Lidstroms waiting when he retired. Now being that he failed to do that people think he should just run out and get one. You would think in a town with the Lions that people would be capable of recognizing how well the Detroit Red Wings have treated them. Frankly I am embarrassed.

OK now you are just feeling sorry for yourself. No one has said the vast majority of these comments. If you truly believe it is the case start a poll or name names. I have never called for Holland to be fired. I have suggested he be encouraged to get bumped up into the org chart, much like Jimmy D did so Holland could get his turn as GM. Holland had a great run and belongs in the HHoF. However it is clear he is far too timid to upgrade the roster. He routinely made significant trades to upgrade the roster prior to the salary cap. Since then he has only made very minor changes. His biggest trade was for Brad Stuart for a 2nd round draft pick. That worked out fine when the Wings had one of the best rosters in the league and simply needed a physical defensive d-man. Acquiring Kyle Quincey for a first round draft pick hoping he could be an offensive d-man was a laughable farce. I said as much in the thread when the trade was announced.

Bottom line: Holland is past his sell-by date. He shouldn't be fired but it's clear he doesn't have the stomach for making the tough decisions necessary to upgrade the roster into a Cup contender.

Your 8th defensemen isn't expected to put up 50 points.

Agreed. But when your #1 d-man who plays with two of the best forwards in the league isn't trending to put up 50 points it indicates your team is very bad at puck possession and generating offense from your back end. Los Angeles has offensive d-men, Chicago has offensive d-men, Boston has offensive d-men, Anaheim has offensive d-men. It's no surprise they have all won Cups recently or are tearing up the league right now. What Anaheim is doing in the West is simply amazing.

Loyalty is a virtue. Players are people not horses. For every action there is a reaction.

The Wings bent over backwards to placate Jiri Hudler. Val Filppula left for greener pastures. Ken Holland basically said his prospects were rubbish compared to REAL MEN like Todd Bertuzzi, Dan Cleary, Patrick Eaves and Mikael Samuelsson. That sort of "loyalty" bluster is beginning to sound dangerously close to what Dolla Bill Wirtz said when the Blackhawks were in their full on death spiral. If anything Holland is far too loyal and not willing to follow the same logic as his coach: the best players play. Babcock wanted Smith on this team when Holland sent him back down to Grand Rapids. The same thing happened to Xavier Ouellet this year.

Bottom line: an old, out of touch man's loyalty is a young man's slap in the face. The Blackhawks routinely lost guys as soon as they hit free agency. We lost two good young players in Hudler and Filppula. Now I was never a big Hudler fan but the writing is on the wall about how the young guys feel about being told "best guy wins the job" but are then forced to play yet another year in the minors when they have clearly won an NHL roster spot.

The Detroit Red Wings have been and continue to be the best franchise in hockey. Their commitment to quality and excellence has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt for an extended period of time. Sports are very fluid. Players age, over excel, under perform, and get injured. No franchise can predict these things with 100% accuracy. The Wings do far better than most.

The bar is now to "make the playoffs". Do you honestly expect that bar to rise when Babcock leaves after this season? Do you expect it to rise when Pavs and then Z see their production fall off and eventually retire?

Bottom line: for the remainder of Holland's tenure as GM we will hope to be the Nashville Predators under Barry Trotz: a team that cannot score goals and will need to beat teams 1-0 or 2-1. Oh, but we won't have Shea Weber or Ryan Suter. At that point we'll see how much the players Holland subjected to becoming "over ripe" buy into the concept of loyalty.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Are you for real? You are a master at dodging questions and ideas that you don't understand and trying to deflect them, I'll give you that.

Adding Lidstrom in his prime to virtually any team makes them a contender. What a redundant question. That's like asking if you think adding Yzerman to this team would make them a contender.

But back to the original subject at hand, don't think you're going to get out of this, I'd be willing to bet you can't give me a list of advantages of having RHS and RHD. I'll give you a break and all you have to do is list the advantages in the defensive zone. We won't address the other two, at least not yet. I'd also be willing to bet that there isn't a team that has won the Stanley Cup that didn't have a couple right-handed shots. History and stats are on my side. Your opinion is meaningless against those.

edit: That came off as a little harsh, which isn't my intention. But you can't go making statements like that and try to pass them off as facts. Especially when there is a history of evidence against you.

It's the relation of body position to stick position given the side of the ice you are on and the direction you are facing to achieve that positioning either in relation to the net or to the boards.
I am not arguing that there is no value. I am arguing that you can win without it given that the vast majority of blueliners are leftys.
Oh and you said "you would bet" and then cited that as "stats" and declared my opinion meaningless against "those". Do you have a link to that data? You didn't post any facts. I would be very curious as to the righty/lefty make up of all the cup winning teams. I assume you have that handy since you stated it as fact. History even.

 

[Frk It]

Since this game is so boring...

But every team that has won a Cup since 2000 has had at least 1 RH forward and 1 RH defenseman. Most have had more. The information isn't that easy to come by, without looking at each roster.

For what it's worth.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Since this game is so boring...

But every team that has won a Cup since 2000 has had at least 1 RH forward and 1 RH defenseman. Most have had more. The information isn't that easy to come by, without looking at each roster.

For what it's worth.

We have 1 RH forward, now if we bring up one of our RH defensemen/trade for one, we'll be a stanley cup team.

 

[TatarTangle]

It's the relation of body position to stick position given the side of the ice you are on and the direction you are facing to achieve that positioning either in relation to the net or to the boards.
I am not arguing that there is no value. I am arguing that you can win without it given that the vast majority of blueliners are leftys.
Oh and you said "you would bet" and then cited that as "stats" and declared my opinion meaningless against "those". Do you have a link to that data? You didn't post any facts. I would be very curious as to the righty/lefty make up of all the cup winning teams. I assume you have that handy since you stated it as fact. History even.

You did a wonderful job explaining what handness is but you didn't list one advantage of it e.g. A RHD is going to make a more accurate, crisper pass on the right side as it's his natural side. He's also going to be able to protect the puck better.

We'll just go to with defenseman because that's what was originally brought up:

LA Kings: 4 RHD
Chicago: 2 RHD
Boston: 4+ RHD
Pittsburgh: 2 RHD
Detroit: 2 RHD

Those are just some recent examples. But, for this arguments sake, I went to wikipedia and went to the list of Stanley Cup Champions. I then used hockey-reference.com, a pretty handy site, to look at all the rosters. Every. single. team. had at least one RHD. I just glanced at it, as I'm not going to devote that much time to it but I'd wager to say the average was 30%, sometimes 40%, of the total roster was RHS

So yes, it is necessary. There is literally no example you can point to and back up your claim that it isn't 100% necessary.

edit: So in the future I would avoid saying stuff like

If you think a #1 RHD is 100% necessary to win the cup you fail to recognize that hockey is a team game. You don't look smart when you post this 2,333,765,098 times.

because it might not be him that doesn't look smart

 

[Frk It]

We have 1 RH forward, now if we bring up one of our RH defensemen/trade for one, we'll be a stanley cup team.

PERSONALLY I think that adding another quality defenseman, or a legitimate offensive defenseman is more important than getting just a right handed defenseman.

I mean, ideally you would get one that is both. Like Mike Green. But I would much rather have Yandle than Myers. Or Petry.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

PERSONALLY I think that adding another quality defenseman, or a legitimate offensive defenseman is more important than getting just a right handed defenseman.

I mean, ideally you would get one that is both. Like Mike Green. But I would much rather have Yandle than Myers. Or Petry.

Naturally the quality of the player outweighs the handedness, surely.

 

[jkutswings]

Since the OP wants an answer to the original question, I'll provide one.

I expect The Detroit Red Wings to be decisive.

For the last 5 years, Holland has had one foot in the past, keeping re-treads like Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Cleary around FAR longer than their talent dictates, while putting the other foot in the future, not wanting to trade any prospects for one last kick at the can with this group of vets.

News flash: You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

The current roster, although healthier than most recent years, is still very much in the same boat, being good enough to make the playoffs, only to serve as cannon fodder for significantly better teams (i.e., the real contenders).

Personally, I think that barring a blockbuster caliber player(s) arriving via trade (since they appear to no longer be a destination for elite free agents), the run is already over. Therefore, I'd expect them to embrace the youth movement wholeheartedly. That means that Cleary is gone, and while I'd never give any assets of value away for nothing, I'd at least LISTEN to offers on anybody over 30.

I'm not saying that either path (loading up or going young) is wrong. I'm saying that the Door #3 they chose instead is never going to result in a Cup while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still here, which effectively amounts to wasting time and resources.

 

[Actual Thought*]

You did a wonderful job explaining what handness is but you didn't list one advantage of it e.g. A RHD is going to make a more accurate, crisper pass on the right side as it's his natural side. He's also going to be able to protect the puck better.

We'll just go to with defenseman because that's what was originally brought up:

LA Kings: 4 RHD
Chicago: 2 RHD
Boston: 4+ RHD
Pittsburgh: 2 RHD
Detroit: 2 RHD

Those are just some recent examples. But, for this arguments sake, I went to wikipedia and went to the list of Stanley Cup Champions. I then used hockey-reference.com, a pretty handy site, to look at all the rosters. Every. single. team. had at least one RHD. I just glanced at it, as I'm not going to devote that much time to it but I'd wager to say the average was 30%, sometimes 40%, of the total roster was RHS

So yes, it is necessary. There is literally no example you can point to and back up your claim that it isn't 100% necessary.

edit: So in the future I would avoid saying stuff like



because it might not be him that doesn't look smart

Actually what was originally brought up was your expectations for a sports franchise. In the rush to post how "we can't win" and "we need a RHD" very few here even noticed the topic.

 

[Actual Thought*]

PERSONALLY I think that adding another quality defenseman, or a legitimate offensive defenseman is more important than getting just a right handed defenseman.

I mean, ideally you would get one that is both. Like Mike Green. But I would much rather have Yandle than Myers. Or Petry.

I agree and I suspect Holland will make a deadline move. However being very critical of Holland I am curious what your expectation of the franchise overall is? I mean if the Wings haven't been good enough for you what do you expect?

 

[PelagicJoe]

I expect an upgrade on defense.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

the only expectation any fan who is actually a fan of pro sports should have of their beloved franchise is that they win.

not have had won or would like one day to win, but, to win.

its a constant expectation

every single game, every single week and every single season

if you don't you shouldn't be playing nor watching the game

every move, every decision should be based on the next win not the previous win

that the only acceptable mentality in pro sports and its why players, coaches and mgmt get paid millions upon millions of dollars and why fans and supporters pay out millions upon millions of dollars.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

My expectation's are really simple. Ice the best team possible every night. I don't mean the best team in the NHL, but playing the best players within your organization.

Loyalty points don't exist in pro sports anymore. If you have a GM that still thinks loyalty is a valuable commodity, your GM does not realize how pro sports work anymore.

 

[Henkka]

But, for this arguments sake, I went to wikipedia and went to the list of Stanley Cup Champions. I then used hockey-reference.com, a pretty handy site, to look at all the rosters. Every. single. team. had at least one RHD. I just glanced at it, as I'm not going to devote that much time to it but I'd wager to say the average was 30%, sometimes 40%, of the total roster was RHS

So yes, it is necessary. There is literally no example you can point to and back up your claim that it isn't 100% necessary.

2006 Carolina had:

LHD Bret Hedican - RHD Aaron Ward
LHD Frantisek Kaberle - RHD Mike Commodore
LHD Glen Wesley - LHD Niclas Wallin

They also used RH forward Ray Whitney on the PP point.

2006 Edmonton had:

LHD Chris Pronger - RHD Steve Staios
LHD Jaroslav Spacek - RHD Jason Smith
LHD MA Bergeron - RHD Matt Greene

They also used RH Ales Hemsky and Jarred Stoll on the PP point.

2007 Ottawa had:

LHD Wade Redden - RHD Joe Corvo
LHD Chris Phillips - LHD Anton Volcenkov
LHD Andrej Meszaros - RHD Tom Preissing

They used RH Daniel Alfredsson on the PP point.

2007 Anaheim had:

LHD Chris Pronger - LHD Sean O'donnell
LHD Francois Beauchemin - LHD Scott Niedermayer
LHD Kent Huskins - RHD Joe DiPenta
(RD Richard Jackman)

They had RH Ryan Getzlaf on the point.

2008 Detroit had:

LHD Lidström - RHD Rafalski
LHD Kronwall - LHD Stuart
LHD Lebda - RHD Chelios/LHD Lilja

Used also RH Mikael Samuelsson on the 2nd PP point.

2008 Pittsburgh had:

LHD Sergei Gonchar - LHD Brooks Orpik
LHD Rob Scuderi - RHD Kris Letang
LHD Hal Gill - LHD Ryan Whitney

Didn't have any RH forward on the point.

2009 Pittsburgh had:

LHD Sergei Gonchar LHD Brooks Orpik
LHD Rob Scuderi - RHD Kris Letang
LHD Hal Gill - LHD Mark Eaton

Didn't have any RH forward on the point, but added RH Bill Guerin for the 1st PP.

2009 Detroit had:

LHD Lidström - RHD Rafalski
LHD Kronwall - LHD Stuart
LHD Lebda - LHD Ericsson
(LHD Meech - RHD Chelios)

RH Sammy on the PP point.

2010 Chicago had:

LHD Duncan Keith - RHD Brent Seabrook
LHD Brian Campbell - LHD Niklas Hjalmarsson
LHD Jordan Hendry/Nick Boynton - RHD Brent Sopel

Used RH Patrick Sharp on the PP point. Also RHD Dustin Byfuglien had some games as a defenceman, but more as a forward.

2010 Flyers had:

LHD Chris Pronger - LHD Matt Carle
LHD Kimmo Timonen - LHD Braydon Coburn
LHD Lukas Krajicek - LHD Ryan Parent/LHD Oskars Bartulis

They did have RH forwards like Daniel Briere and Claude Giroux, but didn't use them on the PP point. Went with Pronger - Timonen and Carle - Coburn.

2011 Boston had:

LHD Zdeno Chara - LHD Dennis Seidenberg
LHD Andrew Ference - RHD Johnny Boychuk
LHD Tomas Kaberle - RHD Adam McQuaid

Used at least RH David Krejci and RH Rich Peverley on the PP point.

2011 Vancouver had:

LHD Dan Hamhuis - RHD Kevin Bieksa
LHD Alex Edler - LHD Christian Ehrhoff
LHD Aaron Rome/Keith Ballard - RHD Sami Salo
(LHD Andrew Alberts - RHD Chris Tanev)

2012 Los Angeles had:

LHD Rob Scuderi - RHD Drew Doughty
LHD Willie Mitchell - RHD Slava Voynov
LHD Alec Martinez - RHD Matt Greene

2012 New Jersey had:

LHD Bryce Salvador - RHD Marek Zidlicky
LHD Andy Greene - RHD Mark Fayne
LHD Anton Volchenkov - RHD Peter Harrold/RHD Adam Larsson

Used also RH Ilya Kovalchuk on the PP point.

2013 Chicago had:

LHD Duncan Keith - RHD Brent Seabrook
LHD Niklas Hjalmarsson - LHD Johnny Oduya
LHD Nick Leddy - RHD Michal Roszival

Used RH Sharp on the point.

2013 Boston had:

LHD Zdeno Chara - LHD Dennis Seidenberg
LHD Andrew Ference - RHD Johnny Boychuk
LHD Torey Krug - RHD Adam McQuaid
(LHD Matt Bartkowski/Wade Redden - RHD Dougie Hamilton)

Used righties like Bergeron, Seguin and Krejci on the PP point.

2014 Los Angeles had:

LHD Jake Muzzin - RHD Drew Doughty
LHD Willie Mitchell/Robyn Regehr - RHD Slava Voynov
LHD Alec Martinez - RHD Matt Greene

2014 NY Rangers had:

LHD Ryan McDonagh - RHD Dan Girardi
LHD Marc Staal - RHD Anton Strålman
LHD Jon Moore - RHD Kevin Klein

Since that Flyers "all-lefties" 2010 team, all SC-finalists have had very complete handness combos on the back end. 2007 Anaheim and 2009 Pittsburgh have had least righties about recent Cup winners.

Our Stanley Cup teams have also had nice handness combos as 2002 being the perfect defence.

1997 Detroit:

LHD Nicklas Lidström - RHD Larry Murphy
LHD Slava Fetisov - RHD Vladimir Konstantinov
RHD Aaron Ward - RHD Bob Rouse

1998 Detroit:

LHD Nicklas Lidström - RHD Larry Murphy
LHD Slava Fetisov - LHD Anders Eriksson/RHD Dimitry Mironov
LHD Jamie Macoun - RHD Bob Rouse

2002 Detroit:

LHD Nicklas Lidström - RHD Fredrik Olausson
LHD Jiri Fischer - RHD Chris Chelios
LHD Steve Duchesne - RHD Mathieu Dandenault

 

[TatarTangle]

Actually what was originally brought up was your expectations for a sports franchise. In the rush to post how "we can't win" and "we need a RHD" very few here even noticed the topic.

Don't attack another member by saying he doesn't look smart and then make a statement that has no truth to it, but was presented as a fact, and we won't have a problem.

But perhaps part of their expectations for a franchise is for them to realize "we can't win" and say "hey, we need a RHD, that would really help our chances of winning." And here is the big shocker:

Every GM in every sport does this, you know, addressing a team's needs. So it's kind of a redundant question to ask what you expect out of a franchise when there is basically an universal answer. I look at this thread and all I see is another oppurtunity for you to call everyone's constructive criticism about a GM and team, pessimism, as it seems that's part of your MO. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, if you don't blindly follow a GM and agree with every move he makes and never question him you're pessimistic.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Don't attack another member by saying he doesn't look smart and then make a statement that has no truth to it, but was presented as a fact, and we won't have a problem.

But perhaps part of their expectations for a franchise is for them to realize "we can't win" and say "hey, we need a RHD, that would really help our chances of winning." And here is the big shocker:

Every GM in every sport does this, you know, addressing a team's needs. So it's kind of a redundant question to ask what you expect out of a franchise when there is basically an universal answer. I look at this thread and all I see is another oppurtunity for you to call everyone's constructive criticism about a GM and team, pessimism, as it seems that's part of your MO. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, if you don't blindly follow a GM and agree with every move he makes and never question him you're pessimistic.

You are wrong. If you believe that you have a greater understanding of the team's needs and avenues to fill them than Holland does, you likely over value your understanding by an enormous margin. A margin of such magnitude that it is impossible to take your argument seriously. "Constructive criticism" is intended to teach the criticized. Do you really believe that you are teaching Ken Holland how to be a good GM?
No sports franchise in the universe would fire Ken Holland given his performance. None. Zero, Zip, Nada. Here? The majority think it is a good idea to "teach" Holland the ultimate lesson.

What kind of fan base has a 25 year run of excellence and wants to fire the GM?

What kind of fan base weakly surrenders to the new upstarts given the track record of their team is that of the Detroit Red Wings?

Pessimism? Nah, no pessimism here.

I look at the last few years as a rebuild. It is obvious to me that the rebuild is going well. The team has gotten younger and better. I can say with confidence that the Wings will win another cup soon because they are run by people who KNOW how to build a champion and are committed to do so. I don't fault Holland for signing a few bridge contracts to ice a playoff team on our way to where we are now. I also don't fault Holland for allowing his prospects to ripen. The Wings have been a factory of long term NHL careers. I suspect there is more than luck to explain it.

 

[Actual Thought*]

2006 Carolina had:

LHD Bret Hedican - RHD Aaron Ward
LHD Frantisek Kaberle - RHD Mike Commodore
LHD Glen Wesley - LHD Niclas Wallin

They also used RH forward Ray Whitney on the PP point.

2006 Edmonton had:

LHD Chris Pronger - RHD Steve Staios
LHD Jaroslav Spacek - RHD Jason Smith
LHD MA Bergeron - RHD Matt Greene

They also used RH Ales Hemsky and Jarred Stoll on the PP point.

2007 Ottawa had:

LHD Wade Redden - RHD Joe Corvo
LHD Chris Phillips - LHD Anton Volcenkov
LHD Andrej Meszaros - RHD Tom Preissing

They used RH Daniel Alfredsson on the PP point.

2007 Anaheim had:

LHD Chris Pronger - LHD Sean O'donnell
LHD Francois Beauchemin - LHD Scott Niedermayer
LHD Kent Huskins - RHD Joe DiPenta
(RD Richard Jackman)

They had RH Ryan Getzlaf on the point.

2008 Detroit had:

LHD Lidström - RHD Rafalski
LHD Kronwall - LHD Stuart
LHD Lebda - RHD Chelios/LHD Lilja

Used also RH Mikael Samuelsson on the 2nd PP point.

2008 Pittsburgh had:

LHD Sergei Gonchar - LHD Brooks Orpik
LHD Rob Scuderi - RHD Kris Letang
LHD Hal Gill - LHD Ryan Whitney

Didn't have any RH forward on the point.

2009 Pittsburgh had:

LHD Sergei Gonchar LHD Brooks Orpik
LHD Rob Scuderi - RHD Kris Letang
LHD Hal Gill - LHD Mark Eaton

Didn't have any RH forward on the point, but added RH Bill Guerin for the 1st PP.

2009 Detroit had:

LHD Lidström - RHD Rafalski
LHD Kronwall - LHD Stuart
LHD Lebda - LHD Ericsson
(LHD Meech - RHD Chelios)

RH Sammy on the PP point.

2010 Chicago had:

LHD Duncan Keith - RHD Brent Seabrook
LHD Brian Campbell - LHD Niklas Hjalmarsson
LHD Jordan Hendry/Nick Boynton - RHD Brent Sopel

Used RH Patrick Sharp on the PP point. Also RHD Dustin Byfuglien had some games as a defenceman, but more as a forward.

2010 Flyers had:

LHD Chris Pronger - LHD Matt Carle
LHD Kimmo Timonen - LHD Braydon Coburn
LHD Lukas Krajicek - LHD Ryan Parent/LHD Oskars Bartulis

They did have RH forwards like Daniel Briere and Claude Giroux, but didn't use them on the PP point. Went with Pronger - Timonen and Carle - Coburn.

2011 Boston had:

LHD Zdeno Chara - LHD Dennis Seidenberg
LHD Andrew Ference - RHD Johnny Boychuk
LHD Tomas Kaberle - RHD Adam McQuaid

Used at least RH David Krejci and RH Rich Peverley on the PP point.

2011 Vancouver had:

LHD Dan Hamhuis - RHD Kevin Bieksa
LHD Alex Edler - LHD Christian Ehrhoff
LHD Aaron Rome/Keith Ballard - RHD Sami Salo
(LHD Andrew Alberts - RHD Chris Tanev)

2012 Los Angeles had:

LHD Rob Scuderi - RHD Drew Doughty
LHD Willie Mitchell - RHD Slava Voynov
LHD Alec Martinez - RHD Matt Greene

2012 New Jersey had:

LHD Bryce Salvador - RHD Marek Zidlicky
LHD Andy Greene - RHD Mark Fayne
LHD Anton Volchenkov - RHD Peter Harrold/RHD Adam Larsson

Used also RH Ilya Kovalchuk on the PP point.

2013 Chicago had:

LHD Duncan Keith - RHD Brent Seabrook
LHD Niklas Hjalmarsson - LHD Johnny Oduya
LHD Nick Leddy - RHD Michal Roszival

Used RH Sharp on the point.

2013 Boston had:

LHD Zdeno Chara - LHD Dennis Seidenberg
LHD Andrew Ference - RHD Johnny Boychuk
LHD Torey Krug - RHD Adam McQuaid
(LHD Matt Bartkowski/Wade Redden - RHD Dougie Hamilton)

Used righties like Bergeron, Seguin and Krejci on the PP point.

2014 Los Angeles had:

LHD Jake Muzzin - RHD Drew Doughty
LHD Willie Mitchell/Robyn Regehr - RHD Slava Voynov
LHD Alec Martinez - RHD Matt Greene

2014 NY Rangers had:

LHD Ryan McDonagh - RHD Dan Girardi
LHD Marc Staal - RHD Anton Strålman
LHD Jon Moore - RHD Kevin Klein

Since that Flyers "all-lefties" 2010 team, all SC-finalists have had very complete handness combos on the back end. 2007 Anaheim and 2009 Pittsburgh have had least righties about recent Cup winners.

Our Stanley Cup teams have also had nice handness combos as 2002 being the perfect defence.

1997 Detroit:

LHD Nicklas Lidström - RHD Larry Murphy
LHD Slava Fetisov - RHD Vladimir Konstantinov
RHD Aaron Ward - RHD Bob Rouse

1998 Detroit:

LHD Nicklas Lidström - RHD Larry Murphy
LHD Slava Fetisov - LHD Anders Eriksson/RHD Dimitry Mironov
LHD Jamie Macoun - RHD Bob Rouse

2002 Detroit:

LHD Nicklas Lidström - RHD Fredrik Olausson
LHD Jiri Fischer - RHD Chris Chelios
LHD Steve Duchesne - RHD Mathieu Dandenault

Thanks for taking the time to put that together. It seems the overwhelming majority of cup teams have at least one RHD (which I never denied)though in many cases they were bottom pairing guys and it isn't unprecedented for a team to go to the final with all lefties. It is reasonable to assume that many of these teams had a pair of lefties on the ice for most 5 on 5 play.
I also noticed you pointed out the use of right/left pairs on the PP for almost all of them. However Detroit's PP doesn't use a pair of D running the point. As if they have asked themselves "Given we don't have a top pair righty how can we still be effective"? If you don't use 2 d on the point it kind of negates the need for a r/l pairing for your PP. By design their PP doesn't use a QB and it has been very effective.
Defensively I think they have tried to build the team with strong 2 way center depth and a defensively responsible forward corp in general. The result is that they are among the best in the league for fewest shots against. They also are among the top 3 in fewest regulation losses. That is an indicator that they are difficult to beat in a hockey game.

 

[phreak]

You did a wonderful job explaining what handness is but you didn't list one advantage of it e.g. A RHD is going to make a more accurate, crisper pass on the right side as it's his natural side. He's also going to be able to protect the puck better.

We'll just go to with defenseman because that's what was originally brought up:

LA Kings: 4 RHD
Chicago: 2 RHD
Boston: 4+ RHD
Pittsburgh: 2 RHD
Detroit: 2 RHD

Those are just some recent examples. But, for this arguments sake, I went to wikipedia and went to the list of Stanley Cup Champions. I then used hockey-reference.com, a pretty handy site, to look at all the rosters. Every. single. team. had at least one RHD. I just glanced at it, as I'm not going to devote that much time to it but I'd wager to say the average was 30%, sometimes 40%, of the total roster was RHS

So yes, it is necessary. There is literally no example you can point to and back up your claim that it isn't 100% necessary.

edit: So in the future I would avoid saying stuff like



because it might not be him that doesn't look smart

lol In no way shape or form is this proof that a RH shot is 100% necessary. It just happens to be something that the last however many cup winnings team has had.

It's like saying that because every single team that has won the cup for however many years has had at least one player that likes to iron his socks, it's proof that it is 100% necessary to have a player on your team who likes to iron his socks in order to win the cup.

Or before females were leaders, that a true leader needed to be a male because all other leaders before that were male.

Or that if I walk into a room and talk to 10 successful lawyers and they all drink coffee that's proof that it is 100% necessary to drink coffee to be a successful lawyer.

Yeah sure, having a right-handed shot is a benefit and that's why most teams like to have some right-handed shots but in no way does that make it an actual requirement to win the cup lol It might increase the odds of winning because it has a strategic advantage but so do a million other things. Increasing the odds of something occurring is a totally different story than it actually being a condition required for that thing to occur lol

lol It's funny because you're proudly strutting around here in a very condescending manner (I have facts and history on my side!), acting like your argument is so supremely flawless, when the very nature of the argument is flawed.

Just because a group of things has a certain quality in common doesn’t mean that quality is a requirement for that group to exist. That’s basic critical thinking skills you learn in high school lol

He doesn't need to prove anything to you or provide you with any evidence. You are the one making the claim and although you've cited 'facts' and 'history' they don't actually prove your claim whatsoever. I've already given you several examples of why that type of reasoning is flawed and I could think of a billion more. I think it’s probably time you take your ego down a notch bud before you embarrass yourself anymore.

 

[Actual Thought*]

lol In no way shape or form is this proof that a RH shot is 100% necessary. It just happens to be something that the last however many cup winnings team has had.

It's like saying that because every single team that has won the cup for however many years has had at least one player that likes to iron his socks, it's proof that it is 100% necessary to have a player on your team who likes to iron his socks in order to win the cup.

Or before females were leaders, that a true leader needed to be a male because all other leaders before that were male.

Or that if I walk into a room and talk to 10 successful lawyers and they all drink coffee that's proof that it is 100% necessary to drink coffee to be a successful lawyer.

Yeah sure, having a right-handed shot is a benefit and that's why most teams like to have some right-handed shots but in no way does that make it an actual requirement to win the cup lol It might increase the odds of winning because it has a strategic advantage but so do a million other things. Increasing the odds of something occurring is a totally different story than it actually being a condition required for that thing to occur lol

lol It's funny because you're proudly strutting around here in a very condescending manner (I have facts and history on my side!), acting like your argument is so supremely flawless, when the very nature of the argument is flawed.

Just because a group of things has a certain quality in common doesn’t mean that quality is a requirement for that group to exist. That’s basic critical thinking skills you learn in high school lol

He doesn't need to prove anything to you or provide you with any evidence. You are the one making the claim and although you've cited 'facts' and 'history' they don't actually prove your claim whatsoever. I've already given you several examples of why that type of reasoning is flawed and I could think of a billion more. I think it’s probably time you take your ego down a notch bud before you embarrass yourself anymore.

Well said. There is a ton of condescension poured on any post that speculates that the Wings are potential contenders. This crowd will tell you every reason in the world why the Wings aren't possibly contenders and how preposterous you are for suggesting that they could be. Everything here seems to start with "we are losers and this is why".