Your Expectations

[jkutswings]

Cup Wins are the best thing a fan can mention when it comes to bragging rights and Cup wins are the the most important metric in determining organizational success. You see the Sharks and their fans talking up their illustrious playoff history? Playoff appearances start to depreciate in value the longer you go without winning a cup.

Give me one cup every 20000 years over the Wings making the playoffs the next 2000 years.

Agreed. And to be honest, it largely is because we really are spoiled. We've SEEN our favorite team make the playoffs so many times, that doing it again isn't anything new or exciting.

I (as I'm sure many others as well) have watched this franchise go from cellar dweller, to competitive, to playoff team, to contender, to champs, to as close to a dynasty as you'll see in the cap era. And once you've witnessed the full climb to the mountaintop, it's only natural to view the peak as your main focus.

Can other aspects still be interesting and exciting? Of course. But I guess I'm personally just more picky than most. I like where Nyquist is heading, I hope DeKeyser continues to progress, and I look forward to seeing Mantha, but otherwise there's really nobody on the roster I really want to watch. I know that sounds crazy, between Datsyuk still having the skill level that he does, and some of the youth playing as well as they are, but I guess this franchise has been punch-button good for so long (but no longer great) that I'm mostly just bored with it and want something new.

I dunno...maybe by the time Mantha is a regular, he (and the new arena, and the rest of the turnover that's slowly been going on) will draw me back. We'll see.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I didn't expect so many to miss the question entirely but it is interesting that those that did all say that they could make the second or third rd but by no means is it possible to win the cup. Weird. I have watched a lot of playoff hockey. Any team capable of getting to the conference final is also capable of winning the cup. That's why they play the actual games. Injuries happen, bounces happen, momentum shifts, hot goalies, ect... I see a lot of "they are really good but it's impossible that they are a contender". That makes no sense.

The original question was what do you expect from a sports franchise? The majority of posters here think Holland should be fired. Given the absolute absurdity of that idea I have to wonder how realistic poster's expectations are.
THE RED WINGS HAVE DONE AN AMAZING JOB OF EARNING THEIR FANS THE RIGHT TO BRAG WITH CONFIDENCE.
MOD This isn't Pittsburgh or Chicago. We don't get handed success in the lottery. We have dominated through excellence and that is why it is sustainable. Sure, when you lose a Nick Lidstrom there is a dip all the way down to being "just a playoff team". If any sports fan in the world should have the confidence to say "Yeah?" "Wait until playoff time" it is fans of the Detroit Red Wings.
I find it embarrassing that so many here are willing to weakly hand over that cache. Buck up! Its pathetic. Your team has a shot every year. Act like it.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I am not sure you can answer the question "what do you expect from a sports franchise" by lookibg in the rearview mirror.

What fans expect is a constantly evolving progressive thing and NOT a historical context.

All sports fans should expect their respective fav team in fav sport to win and to win while clrarly undetstanding thats impossible. That said every move and every decision should be made with that singular goal at the forefront of their mind.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I didn't expect so many to miss the question entirely but it is interesting that those that did all say that they could make the second or third rd but by no means is it possible to win the cup. Weird. I have watched a lot of playoff hockey. Any team capable of getting to the conference final is also capable of winning the cup. That's why they play the actual games. Injuries happen, bounces happen, momentum shifts, hot goalies, ect... I see a lot of "they are really good but it's impossible that they are a contender". That makes no sense.

The original question was what do you expect from a sports franchise? The majority of posters here think Holland should be fired. Given the absolute absurdity of that idea I have to wonder how realistic poster's expectations are.
THE RED WINGS HAVE DONE AN AMAZING JOB OF EARNING THEIR FANS THE RIGHT TO BRAG WITH CONFIDENCE.
MOD This isn't Pittsburgh or Chicago. We don't get handed success in the lottery. We have dominated through excellence and that is why it is sustainable. Sure, when you lose a Nick Lidstrom there is a dip all the way down to being "just a playoff team". If any sports fan in the world should have the confidence to say "Yeah?" "Wait until playoff time" it is fans of the Detroit Red Wings.
I find it embarrassing that so many here are willing to weakly hand over that cache. Buck up! Its pathetic. Your team has a shot every year. Act like it.

Our team has not legitimately had a shot for a few years, now. If our team "had a shot" to win the cup (not many teams do) we should have gone to a conference final by now. The team as it stands does not appear to me (as well as many others) as one that can contend for a Stanley Cup. Sure we have the talent to make the playoffs, but we have weaknesses that will hurt us come playoff time, and have hurt us in the past.

Ken Holland has not done very much to improve the quality of the team over the past few years, and it is possible for him to improve the team and still make the playoffs. I expect Holland to make good moves as a GM and right now I don't see a lot of good moves on his resume other than letting players like Samuelsson and Bertuzzi go (which was obvious) and allowing the kids to play. People have a right to criticize the direction the team is going and what is considered a "successful season."

 

[Obe2kenobe]

I didn't expect so many to miss the question entirely but it is interesting that those that did all say that they could make the second or third rd but by no means is it possible to win the cup. Weird. I have watched a lot of playoff hockey. Any team capable of getting to the conference final is also capable of winning the cup. That's why they play the actual games. Injuries happen, bounces happen, momentum shifts, hot goalies, ect... I see a lot of "they are really good but it's impossible that they are a contender". That makes no sense.

The original question was what do you expect from a sports franchise? The majority of posters here think Holland should be fired. Given the absolute absurdity of that idea I have to wonder how realistic poster's expectations are.
THE RED WINGS HAVE DONE AN AMAZING JOB OF EARNING THEIR FANS THE RIGHT TO BRAG WITH CONFIDENCE.
MOD This isn't Pittsburgh or Chicago. We don't get handed success in the lottery. We have dominated through excellence and that is why it is sustainable. Sure, when you lose a Nick Lidstrom there is a dip all the way down to being "just a playoff team". If any sports fan in the world should have the confidence to say "Yeah?" "Wait until playoff time" it is fans of the Detroit Red Wings.
I find it embarrassing that so many here are willing to weakly hand over that cache. Buck up! Its pathetic. Your team has a shot every year. Act like it.

MOD Why are you so defensive of Holland?
You are not the only one who has watched a lot of playoff hockey. Posters here are entitled to there own opinion. I don't think the wings make it past the 2nd rd, but who knows? I do believe the team is better than last years.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Our team has not legitimately had a shot for a few years, now. If our team "had a shot" to win the cup (not many teams do) we should have gone to a conference final by now. The team as it stands does not appear to me (as well as many others) as one that can contend for a Stanley Cup. Sure we have the talent to make the playoffs, but we have weaknesses that will hurt us come playoff time, and have hurt us in the past.

Ken Holland has not done very much to improve the quality of the team over the past few years, and it is possible for him to improve the team and still make the playoffs. I expect Holland to make good moves as a GM and right now I don't see a lot of good moves on his resume other than letting players like Samuelsson and Bertuzzi go (which was obvious) and allowing the kids to play. People have a right to criticize the direction the team is going and what is considered a "successful season."

See there you go. How could you possibly look at the team and make that statement? It is flat out untrue and obviously so.

 

[Actual Thought*]

MOD Why are you so defensive of Holland?
You are not the only one who has watched a lot of playoff hockey. Posters here are entitled to there own opinion. I don't think the wings make it past the 2nd rd, but who knows? I do believe the team is better than last years.

Because he has performed so brilliantly? Duh.

 

[odin1981]

I didn't expect so many to miss the question entirely but it is interesting that those that did all say that they could make the second or third rd but by no means is it possible to win the cup. Weird. I have watched a lot of playoff hockey. Any team capable of getting to the conference final is also capable of winning the cup. That's why they play the actual games. Injuries happen, bounces happen, momentum shifts, hot goalies, ect... I see a lot of "they are really good but it's impossible that they are a contender". That makes no sense.

The original question was what do you expect from a sports franchise? The majority of posters here think Holland should be fired. Given the absolute absurdity of that idea I have to wonder how realistic poster's expectations are.
THE RED WINGS HAVE DONE AN AMAZING JOB OF EARNING THEIR FANS THE RIGHT TO BRAG WITH CONFIDENCE.
MOD This isn't Pittsburgh or Chicago. We don't get handed success in the lottery. We have dominated through excellence and that is why it is sustainable. Sure, when you lose a Nick Lidstrom there is a dip all the way down to being "just a playoff team". If any sports fan in the world should have the confidence to say "Yeah?" "Wait until playoff time" it is fans of the Detroit Red Wings.
I find it embarrassing that so many here are willing to weakly hand over that cache. Buck up! Its pathetic. Your team has a shot every year. Act like it.

You have got to be kidding me. We have a shot at the cup because we can make the playoffs. Oh really because I see the same 2 teams taking the cups for the past 4 years. This loser point ******** is all about creating false parity. The situation now is just the same as the late 90's early 00's if you are not one of about 3-4 teams unless you hit the luck jackpot lottery you don't win ****.

Put this in your pipe and smoke it. We just got threw are "garbage time" part of the season. Instead of banking up points for our tough stretch (which starts in around 2 weeks) we are only 2 games over .500. It is still early and the Metro is ****ing terrible but right now with how stuff is trending we will be right in with NYR and TOR fighting for 2 wildcard spots. And this is after are best most favorable "stretch" of the season. As currently constructed we can get in the playoffs but won't do any damage (1 or 2 round exit).

Kenny Holland gets a bunch of **** on this forum because for the past 5 years he hasn't had a pair. At this point all he cares about is protecting his legacy. Which is ******** and should be a fireable offense. He refuses to bring kids up, he is appalled to be making trades to move out dead weight (that you could actually move), and most importantly he refuses to allow the hc (who I am no fan off) to ice his best lineup.

And to your Pitt and Chi argument you need to think again. A long time ago in a galaxy far and away we drafted one Steve Yzerman, Federov, Lidstrom, etc... . To get us in this position that we have now. So don't act like we didn't suck for talent at the start of this organizations rise back to the top either. It has just been so long most forget about the start of this era was the end of the dead things era (to me that is marked by when the Illitches took the team over) and we sucked for our talent to get it started as well.

 

[TatarTangle]

And to your Pitt and Chi argument you need to think again. A long time ago in a galaxy far and away we drafted one Steve Yzerman, Federov, Lidstrom, etc... . To get us in this position that we have now. So don't act like we didn't suck for talent at the start of this organizations rise back to the top either. It has just been so long most forget about the start of this era was the end of the dead things era (to me that is marked by when the Illitches took the team over) and we sucked for our talent to get it started as well.

To add to this - they gave cars away to get people in the seats. Gave cars away. They were giving cars away bad.

 

[Sentinel]

With some incredible luck I can see us pulling a Rangers and making it to the Finals. But realistically speaking we will be out in the 1st round because we keep giving the points away and end up drawing a top team in playoffs.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

See there you go. How could you possibly look at the team and make that statement? It is flat out untrue and obviously so.

Okay, what has Holland done to improve the team, particularly in terms of defensemen?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Making the playoffs =/ Cup contender

You are just being naive if you think every team that makes the playoffs is a cup contender.

 

[SirloinUB]

a pro sports franchise sole preoccupation should be winning championships regardless of sport

so every move, every decision, every week, every year should be viewed through that lense

will you win it every year?... no
will you fail every so often?... yes

but i expect them to win because that is the only thing that matters in PRO sports.

In reality I think it's more along the lines of:

will you fail every year?... no
will you win it every so often?... yes


Probably petty semantics though

Its a damn competitive league and parity isn't going anywhere.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Okay, what has Holland done to improve the team, particularly in terms of defensemen?

DDK, Smith, Quincey and a slew of drafted prospects including Backman, Sproul, XO, Marchenko, Jensen ect...

Then they adjusted their system to maximize the personnel that they have. The possess the puck and prevent shots on net. They win faceoffs. They have a shutdown 4th line and PK that can play with anybody.

Whining because your team hasn't won the cup during a rebuild is pretty silly. Whining about Holland filling gaps with veterans for a couple years while he phased in youth all the while never missing the playoffs is silly. The worship of lottery babies makes me laugh. Talk to me when they have sustained it for twenty plus years. Likely 20+ other teams would immediately fire their whole staff to hire Ken Holland but you know better. Please list the far superior teams who even make the playoffs during a rebuild.

 

[Syckle78]

Because he has performed so brilliantly? Duh.

No.he hasn't. Not for at least a half decades now.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

DDK, Smith, Quincey and a slew of drafted prospects including Backman, Sproul, XO, Marchenko, Jensen ect...

Okay, I'm glad they signed Dekeyser, and he is shaping up to be a good top-4 defenseman. Quincey is not something to hang your hat on considering we let him go to waivers (which I didn't have a big problem with) and used a 1st round draft pick to get him back. That's an issue. Not to mention he likely wouldn't have been signed this season if we had grabbed one of Erhoff or Niskanen or Boyle. He was a last resort and it looked like a panic move. Smith has done alright, but not nearly as well as expected. Not to mention he seems to be poorly underutilized with what he has to show offensively.

Backman, Sproul, XO, Marchenko, and Jensen haven't proven anything long-term, and they sure as hell haven't improved the defensive core of the Red Wings at this stage.

Then they adjusted their system to maximize the personnel that they have. The possess the puck and prevent shots on net. They win faceoffs. They have a shutdown 4th line and PK that can play with anybody.

Adjusted what system? Nyquist was held back from playing last year because guys like Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Cleary were on the team. It is good to have a good stockpile of talent that you can rely on when the injuries hit. The three I mentioned are examples of hoarding veterans when they were not necessary. As far as puck possession, they are doing alright, but as far as the eye test is concerned the forwards are required to do way too much work in their own zone and in the breakout. The 4th line is great, sure.

Whining because your team hasn't won the cup during a rebuild is pretty silly. Whining about Holland filling gaps with veterans for a couple years while he phased in youth all the while never missing the playoffs is silly. The worship of lottery babies makes me laugh. Talk to me when they have sustained it for twenty plus years. Likely 20+ other teams would immediately fire their whole staff to hire Ken Holland but you know better. Please list the far superior teams who even make the playoffs during a rebuild.

Criticism of Holland is not whining. I would suggest that you stop using that word as it is going to lead to unsavory conversation between you and other members. We are allowed to have different opinions and still discuss the subject like adults.

By the way, I am not advocating they sell the farm and become a lottery team. You can make the playoffs every year and still improve the defense to a greater degree than they have so far.

Maybe time will prove me wrong and the team will lead us to a Stanley Cup without making any sizeable moves. But I believe that we need to make a sizeable move (particularly on defense) in order to make use of the top-tier talent in Zetterberg (who if his last number of games are any indication, he has already slowed down) and Datsyuk (who has said he wants to retire in Russia). We don't have anyone in the system as it stands who is projected to have that kind of talent, and we will miss it when it is gone.

By the way, I do have more faith in Holland to right the ship than most people here do. Over time I have been more critical simply because he is running out of time to fix the issues of the team.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

Don't you ever think to yourself "Do I really know better than Ken Holland"? Or "How does Holland have a handful of rings when he is so dumb and lazy"?

Pick any team in the league and predict they will not win the cup every year and you will almost always be right but that doesn't make your analysis any good.

Your relentless in your attempts to prove to us all that KH is doing everything perfectly is a battle you are not going to win.
Part of the reason he has a handful of rings is he took over with a roster loaded with Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom etc.
Hollands career has definetly been successful. What is in question is the last few years. Do I know better than KH.? No. Is he dumb and lazy? I doubt it. Are all his decisions perfect like you appear to think? Of course not.

 

[jkutswings]

Okay, I'm glad they signed Dekeyser, and he is shaping up to be a good top-4 defenseman. Quincey is not something to hang your hat on considering we let him go to waivers (which I didn't have a big problem with) and used a 1st round draft pick to get him back. That's an issue. Not to mention he likely wouldn't have been signed this season if we had grabbed one of Erhoff or Niskanen or Boyle. He was a last resort and it looked like a panic move. Smith has done alright, but not nearly as well as expected. Not to mention he seems to be poorly underutilized with what he has to show offensively.

Backman, Sproul, XO, Marchenko, and Jensen haven't proven anything long-term, and they sure as hell haven't improved the defensive core of the Red Wings at this stage.


Adjusted what system? Nyquist was held back from playing last year because guys like Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Cleary were on the team. It is good to have a good stockpile of talent that you can rely on when the injuries hit. The three I mentioned are examples of hoarding veterans when they were not necessary. As far as puck possession, they are doing alright, but as far as the eye test is concerned the forwards are required to do way too much work in their own zone and in the breakout. The 4th line is great, sure.



Criticism of Holland is not whining. I would suggest that you stop using that word as it is going to lead to unsavory conversation between you and other members. We are allowed to have different opinions and still discuss the subject like adults.

By the way, I am not advocating they sell the farm and become a lottery team. You can make the playoffs every year and still improve the defense to a greater degree than they have so far.

Maybe time will prove me wrong and the team will lead us to a Stanley Cup without making any sizeable moves. But I believe that we need to make a sizeable move (particularly on defense) in order to make use of the top-tier talent in Zetterberg (who if his last number of games are any indication, he has already slowed down) and Datsyuk (who has said he wants to retire in Russia). We don't have anyone in the system as it stands who is projected to have that kind of talent, and we will miss it when it is gone.

By the way, I do have more faith in Holland to right the ship than most people here do. Over time I have been more critical simply because he is running out of time to fix the issues of the team.

^This, x1000.

It's the element of time that bothers me the most. Many fans like to think of their own players as being statically talented forever. In reality, 2-3 years from now, Datsyuk and Zetterberg will be out to pasture, or nearly so, and while it's debatable exactly how good the best players in our farm system are, I don't see anybody betting that ANY of them will pan out to be even better than #13 and #40.

The word of the day is URGENCY, and every year the window gets smaller.

 

[Shaman464]

Honestly, I think the first step towards a cup is either Holland or Babcock leaving. Their team building philosophies are so at odds that I don't see it working out well for the team in the near future.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Pretty sure this topic was posted 3-5 weeks ago. I still feel the same: 4-7 seed and a first round exit. This team has one of the worst defenses in the league. Come playoff time when they get forechecked they will not be able to get out of their own end. That's been the case ever since Rafalski and Lidstrom retired and Holland's answer has been to pretend Jakub Kindl is an NHL defenseman and trade for and sign Kyle Quincey to a new contract. If Danny DeKeyser hadn't fallen into our laps we'd be truly screwed.

We all know Holland is too chicken **** to address the glaring need on this team. Since that's the case he needs to call up a d-man or two from Grand Rapids, guys who can move the puck. Ouellet is more of the same, defensive d-men who have no puckmoving or offensive skills that would ever translate to the highest level of the sport.

The scoring depth is there, the goaltending is there, the coaching has been there for quite a while. The defense is the achilles heel and if Holland doesn't sack up and make some tough decisions we are destined for another short playoff and the best coach in the world moving on to greener pastures.

Tick tock Kenneh.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Your relentless in your attempts to prove to us all that KH is doing everything perfectly is a battle you are not going to win.
Part of the reason he has a handful of rings is he took over with a roster loaded with Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom etc.
Hollands career has definetly been successful. What is in question is the last few years. Do I know better than KH.? No. Is he dumb and lazy? I doubt it. Are all his decisions perfect like you appear to think? Of course not.

I don't argue that Holland is perfect. Nobody is, but if you are constantly complaining when you have arguably the best GM/coach duo in hockey? You simply look like you don't know what you living in Xbox land. When you rip on a guy with Holland's resume because he hasn't won a cup during a rebuild you just look like you have very unrealistic expectations and have very little understanding of what you are talking about.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Okay, I'm glad they signed Dekeyser, and he is shaping up to be a good top-4 defenseman. Quincey is not something to hang your hat on considering we let him go to waivers (which I didn't have a big problem with) and used a 1st round draft pick to get him back. That's an issue. Not to mention he likely wouldn't have been signed this season if we had grabbed one of Erhoff or Niskanen or Boyle. He was a last resort and it looked like a panic move. Smith has done alright, but not nearly as well as expected. Not to mention he seems to be poorly underutilized with what he has to show offensively.

Backman, Sproul, XO, Marchenko, and Jensen haven't proven anything long-term, and they sure as hell haven't improved the defensive core of the Red Wings at this stage.


Adjusted what system? Nyquist was held back from playing last year because guys like Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Cleary were on the team. It is good to have a good stockpile of talent that you can rely on when the injuries hit. The three I mentioned are examples of hoarding veterans when they were not necessary. As far as puck possession, they are doing alright, but as far as the eye test is concerned the forwards are required to do way too much work in their own zone and in the breakout. The 4th line is great, sure.



Criticism of Holland is not whining. I would suggest that you stop using that word as it is going to lead to unsavory conversation between you and other members. We are allowed to have different opinions and still discuss the subject like adults.

By the way, I am not advocating they sell the farm and become a lottery team. You can make the playoffs every year and still improve the defense to a greater degree than they have so far.

Maybe time will prove me wrong and the team will lead us to a Stanley Cup without making any sizeable moves. But I believe that we need to make a sizeable move (particularly on defense) in order to make use of the top-tier talent in Zetterberg (who if his last number of games are any indication, he has already slowed down) and Datsyuk (who has said he wants to retire in Russia). We don't have anyone in the system as it stands who is projected to have that kind of talent, and we will miss it when it is gone.

By the way, I do have more faith in Holland to right the ship than most people here do. Over time I have been more critical simply because he is running out of time to fix the issues of the team.

Just because you have very little understanding of the plan doesn't mean that there isn't one. Holland knows far more than you give him credit for about building a team. Let's not pretend that we have the tiniest fraction of knowledge or information that Holland has and then we can look at his overall performance from a point of reality and objectivity.

 

[BinCookin]

The word of the day is URGENCY, and every year the window gets smaller.

I definitely agree the window to win a cup WITH Z and D is about 1-2 more years. Maybe 3. With that being said. What moves do we think Holland make to improve the team?

Its a mental debate for me as well. Because I dont want to lose nyquist, tatar, jurco, sheahan.

I think some people are thinking about how pulkinnen will help us or Mantha. I feel like these guys are too far away from being pros to help us now. Do we make trades? Do we hope the youth keeps getting better? Or do we trade for vets... and will those trades strengthen the team?

I know UFA would be the best move. Because it only costs money, and we have spare money. But trades make me debate.

I don't think it is an easy solution. But I do think we need at least 1 new #4 D man to get better. At MINIMUM!

 

[BinCookin]

Just because you have very little understanding of the plan doesn't mean that there isn't one. Holland knows far more than you give him credit for about building a team. Let's not pretend that you have the tiniest fraction of knowledge or information that Holland has and then we can look at his overall performance from a point of reality and objectivity.

I think his point is that he is allowed to critisize. More power too him. I critisize decisions our team makes all the time. We obviously would all love to be GM's. And Baring creating multiple universes where we could all see WHOS plan was right. Its an impossible excercise of hindsight/foresight, because no one knows who will be amazing or who traded or whatever.

I like Holland. I think he has done great. His Patient system has kept us in the playoffs. THats pretty impressive. Will we win another cup? If we do Holland is a Genius right? And if we don't he was a Wussy (cat style) and ruined the team for years right?

Either way both narratives can be argued until we have 20 years hindsight.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

I don't argue that Holland is perfect. Nobody is, but if you are constantly complaining when you have arguably the best GM/coach duo in hockey? You simply look like you don't know what you living in Xbox land. When you rip on a guy with Holland's resume because he hasn't won a cup during a rebuild you just look like you have very unrealistic expectations and have very little understanding of what you are talking about.

I'm not constantly complaining! I've never complained about not Winning the cup while rebuilding. I don't live in Xbox land. I've played the Xbox 1/2 doz. times with my sons. Too many buttons for this old man.
I believe you are the one with unrealistic expectations. If you think every year the wings make the playoffs they have a legitimate chance of winning it all. Right now they look like they are in the middle of the pack. Especially as of late. With 5 straight losses.
You still have never really answered why you defend KH so vehemently. Other than saying because he's been so brilliant. I know you think he is brilliant. Why does it bother you if someone else doesn't.