You Never Give Me Your Money.. (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part XII

[pepty]

Pretty good article summing up the discussion in my point of view.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--n...cs-and-pr-stunts-instead-of-settling-cba.html

That was an interesting article.Nice little breakdown of the PA proposals:

....................................................................
By holding out, the players got the owners to make two straight proposals, to negotiate against themselves, to get about where we thought they were headed all along. Kudos. They created an opportunity.

They didn't seize it. They blew it.
..........................................................

The players' first two proposals involve a lot of math, but they boil down to this – they depend on future growth........... protects what the players have already. It puts all the responsibility and risk on the owners

The players' third proposal sounded reasonable. ...........
"It is not a 50/50 deal," deputy commissioner Bill Daly said in a statement. ..... The proposal contemplates paying the players approximately $650 million outside of the players' share. In effect, the union is proposing to change the accounting rules to be able to say '50/50,' when in reality it is not. The union told us that they had not yet 'run the numbers.' We did."

 

[haseoke39]

I just don't think the players are eager to make a deal.

One side refused to start negotiating until mid-summer.

One side further refused to negotiate core issues for more than a month while the other side had an offer for them on the table that was better than the deal the NFL took.

One side heard countless times that linkage was necessary for a deal and to this day hasn't offered one proposal with linkage.

The other side (if you presume the end goal was something around what the NBA and NFL have, which most sports econ people will stay say is still comparatively generous to the NHLPA) negotiated really ****ing normally. Started low, ramped up at regular intervals. They put an offer on the table every bit as good as what the NBA ended up taking, better than the NFL, and offered to save the full season.

And what did the other side do? Offer ANOTHER proposal that everybody and their mother ****ing knew was DOA because we've heard nothing from the league more consistently than "we won't do delinkage."

I think the PA just doesn't really care about getting a deal done. I think the players egos are still hurting from 2005 and they just want to win, even though the economics of the situation all point towards the owners winning this one.

 

[Satoru Gojo]

@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Spoke with a team exec who says there's either a labor deal this week or there's no season. Not sure it's that clear-cut but who knows..

Gulp..

 

[JAX]

Just don't tell the players. Something tells me they have no idea what's going on.

That's what I've been wondering, how much do the players really know about the proposals they gave or do they just buy whatever Master Fehr tells them.

 

[Mike Jones]

@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Spoke with a team exec who says there's either a labor deal this week or there's no season. Not sure it's that clear-cut but who knows..

Gulp..

I think it's reaching that point.

If there is no season than it's a pitiful, self-defeating waste because a deal could easily be done judging by both the NHL and PA proposals.

 

[Top 6 Spaling]

Amazing how stupid this union is being. They do realize that by missing a full season, they'll lose more money than if they just took the owners latest offer, right?

 

[molsonmuscle360]

@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Spoke with a team exec who says there's either a labor deal this week or there's no season. Not sure it's that clear-cut but who knows..

Gulp..

I honestly think that is what the NHL should propose to the players. A drop dead proposal is a necessity at this point of the game. Bring an offer in to the players on Monday, tell them they have until Friday to work out a deal, and if nothing is done by then, cancel the season.

 

[Acesolid]

@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Spoke with a team exec who says there's either a labor deal this week or there's no season. Not sure it's that clear-cut but who knows..

Gulp..

This makes perfect sense when you think about it. On November 3rd the season should start if there's a deal; but if there isn't it'll instead be just about the time when the Winter Classic'll be cancelled!

There's no point in having a season at all past that point, since the arena owners would make more money just having concerts, conventions, etc... instead of waiting out to see if there'll ever be a deal this year.

And on top of that, if there's no deal, I can really see EVEN MORE players abandon ship for other leagues.

So, like I said before, it's really now or never for there to be a deal and a season!

 

[Motown Beatdown]

@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Spoke with a team exec who says there's either a labor deal this week or there's no season. Not sure it's that clear-cut but who knows..

Gulp..

Wonder if Bettman is going to try and find out the leak?

 

[Renbarg]

Wonder if Bettman is going to try and find out the leak?

Yes because the players thinking October 25th is a hard deadline is a bad thing for the owners.

Besides, a team exec doesn't mean an owner. Could easily be a GM or President.

 

[Mike Jones]

Amazing how stupid this union is being. They do realize that by missing a full season, they'll lose more money than if they just took the owners latest offer, right?

I think this is more about personality and principle (real or perceived) than money. That's the only way to explain this lunatic behavior.

 

[Mike Jones]

Besides, a team exec doesn't mean an owner. Could easily be a GM or President.

And it could have been said out of frustration and anger - Two things that always help ensure the accuracy of a statement.

 

[pepty]

I just don't think the players are eager to make a deal.

One side refused to start negotiating until mid-summer.

One side further refused to negotiate core issues for more than a month while the other side had an offer for them on the table that was better than the deal the NFL took.

One side heard countless times that linkage was necessary for a deal and to this day hasn't offered one proposal with linkage
.................

And what did the other side do? Offer ANOTHER proposal that everybody and their mother ****ing knew was DOA because we've heard nothing from the league more consistently than "we won't do delinkage."

I think the PA just doesn't really care about getting a deal done. I think the players egos are still hurting from 2005 and they just want to win, even though the economics of the situation all point towards the owners winning this one.

That's what I've been wondering, how much do the players really know about the proposals they gave or do they just buy whatever Master Fehr tells them.

I think Fehr and the hardliners that brought him in are not interested in making a deal, however all the players are not stupid(though they may sound that way in their twitters and sound bites.)

This bit from the yahoo article is interesting:

What the heck has the union been doing since Sept. 12, the last time it made a proposal? The leaders haven't run the numbers yet on their best-sounding offer so far? What do the rank and file think about that? Did the rank and file press the leadership to make that proposal during that last-minute conference call Thursday? Is that why the negotiating session was delayed?

Ever since the NHl made their offer and the PA ignored it and came up with their delinked offers ,all we have been hearing from the reporters who usually sing the PA song is that the PA offer is virtually the same as the NHL offer and now an agreement is at hand.
.
Fehr knows he doesn't even have to lift a finger to get the complacent, lazy reporters onside , with few exceptions they will not questions whatever he tells them .The players are very easily manipulated , see Ovechkin.

So if this falls through the sports reporters will be astonished- in their opinion Fehr has made 3 offers that have more than met the owners halfway.

Then, Fehr can get on with his real agenda, getting rid of the cap and taking revenge on Bettman.

 

[Bob b smith]

@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Spoke with a team exec who says there's either a labor deal this week or there's no season. Not sure it's that clear-cut but who knows..

Gulp..

Hopefully, the PA comes up with an offer with just a "small and insubstantial" change from the owner's proposal this week. Bettman will then take Fehr's call. We'll have a season...

 

[Mike Jones]

Then, Fehr can get on with his real agenda, getting rid of the cap and taking revenge on Bettman.

Can somebody refresh my memory and riddle me this: Why is this something personal between Fehr and Bettman? Have these two even met before Fehr accepted his job with the PA?

Whatever happened to the split between business and personal? In this case Personal crap seems to be really screwing up the business side of the league.

 

[Chiuozu*]

There isn't going to be a season this year. It's simply not happening.

I don't think we'll lose two seasons, but one? No doubt about it.

 

[Mike Jones]

There isn't going to be a season this year. It's simply not happening.

I don't think we'll lose two seasons, but one? No doubt about it.

As much as I hate the thought I agree. And it will be the second full season lost in less than ten years.

Nice way to run a league.

 

[Psuhockey]

Fehr made MLB roll over to the union. He thinks he can do it to the NHL. Problem is Bettman is a ruthless negotiator too. With a large majority of clubs losing money and history of canceling a season without repercussions, the NHL can wait the players out.

 

[Dellstrom]

Amazing how stupid this union is being. They do realize that by missing a full season, they'll lose more money than if they just took the owners latest offer, right?

If they lose one whole season, they lose more than what they would have lost in the entire multi-year CBA deal that was proposed.

Math. Fehr can't put the owners against the wall like he did in the MLB. I can't see the players winning in any way. 50% of 0 is 0.

 

[joepeps]

Fehr made MLB roll over to the union. He thinks he can do it to the NHL. Problem is Bettman is a ruthless negotiator too. With a large majority of clubs losing money and history of canceling a season without repercussions, the NHL can wait the players out.

baseball has waaaay more money than hockey... the ********* team in MLB makes more than most NHL teams lol

no salary cap and a luxury tax... way different sports and ways they operate

 

[haseoke39]

baseball has waaaay more money than hockey... the ********* team in MLB makes more than most NHL teams lol

no salary cap and a luxury tax... way different sports and ways they operate

Actually, that's exactly why the NHL will win the waiting game. Most of them don't make any money. A lost season is a treat for owners who are used to paying to keep their team afloat. It's a holiday from being robbed. If the NHL made tons of money, they'd be getting this show on the road pronto.

 

[Pinchy]

If they lose one whole season, they lose more than what they would have lost in the entire multi-year CBA deal that was proposed.

Math. Fehr can't put the owners against the wall like he did in the MLB. I can't see the players winning in any way. 50% of 0 is 0.

It's more like 57% of 0 is 0 since that's what they're fighting for.

I'm really hoping this is all just posturing by the PA who will come to the table on the 25 with a deal using the existing CBA framework.

I can't believe that the two sides haven't agreed to a "soft landing" 50/50 yet.

54% 2012-2013
52% 2013-2014
50% 2014 onwards...

All the player contract issues can be negotiated, and if the players agree to 5-8 year term limits, I can bet pretty much everything else will stay status quo or close to it.

If the players can't come to the table and make this type of offer, well they deserve to lose their salaries for a year. Because if this is the deal on the table for the owners and they say no, the entire PR battle will turn on it's head instantly and pretty much everyone will be on the players side here.

 

[WayneSid9987]

@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Spoke with a team exec who says there's either a labor deal this week or there's no season. Not sure it's that clear-cut but who knows..

Gulp..

Heh.
Basically saying the PA gets it or they don't.

I really hope they lay it out in laymens terms and as nicely as possible.

"We are willing to pay out your contracts but we have to cut costs now. Right this minute. If you can and want to help us do that, lets get to work"

 

[Riptide]

Thanks for the escrow numbers.

Because neither of the first two proposals stop escrow from still taking place and players with existing contracts losing a portion of them via escrow. The proposals just have a higher % of HRR than the NHL's do. There's nothing stopping the owners from spending to a level that will continue to trigger escrow as happened the last 4 seasons (6% average) and 5 of the 7 years of the CBA.

In that sense I suppose (I honestly didn't think of that), however as it's structured the vast majority of those contracts will be honored in full - at least over the first 2-3 years while they're basing things off of the fixed number (with raises). Once it goes to a pure percentage then yes escrow would be applied (and actually mean something again).

 

[AceintheSpace*]

http://www.fiveminutesforfighting.com/2012/10/choose-your-own-adventure-cba.html