You Never Give Me Your Money.. (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part XII

[Pepper]

No way they will consent to giving up even more without gaining something significant. They already feel they gave up a lot last CBA - That resentment has boiled over into this one..

What exactly is NHLPA gaining in their latest proposals?

 

[Orrthebest]

Yea man why do you think many top Russian players come here? If the NHL implements the restrictions on 2nd contracts the young guys will get more $$ over there.



Hey I know a ton of hockey fans who would watch games 2-5 am From what I gather the NHL wants to have 2nd contracts around a max of 2-3 mil. So guys like McDavid in a few yrs could get 7++ over there.

I am basically playing devils advocate and pointing out what could happen if 2nd contracts are mandated at a low limit. From what I am reading most assume the players are all about the $$$ so of course they would go over to get 175% or more of what the NHL would give. Then in time because of the quality of KHL player increasing and the new N.A superstars their revenue should increase thus allowing them to lure top UFA's as well. The NHL is the best because it pays the best and the Owners trying to cheap out may put that in jeopardy.

The NHL is not putting any limits on second contracts. They are removing one year from ELC so a player gets to negotiate his first non-ECL contract after 2 years instead of 3 years. They are hoping this change will help reduce the amount of these contracts.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

One aspect on the NHL latest proposal that really concerns me is the attempt to limit the 2nd contract. I listened to the Kevin Westgarth interview posted earlier and I can see a major issue stemming from imposing limits on 2nd contracts. It is true how most of the players winning the awards and the best players are in that 2nd contract area. Soo lets rewind a few years-present and pretend that 2nd contracts are limited to a max of 2-3 mil/yr well kiss your elite talent good bye. The KHL would have paid Crosby, Stamkos, Doughty, Ovi, Malkin, Giroux, Karlsson, Tavares, Towes, Eberle, Seguin, Hall, Quick and many others I missed way more than the NHL would/will. Imagine the NHL without Crosby, Stamkos, Doughty, Ovi, Malkin, Giroux, Karlsson, Tavares, Towes, Eberle, Seguin, Hall, Quick I don't mean with out as they never existed but with out as every hockey fan in the world knows these are the best in the world and their playing in the KHL. Thats going to start players refusing to report to their NHL draft club and go over seas right out of Jr. Once the elite veterans finish out their contracts the NHL would become a north American KHL where all the best players want to play with the best in the KHL and those who aren't good enough play in the NHL or the few who want to be close to home for less $$. The reason the NHL is the best league is because it pays the best pure and simple, once that is no longer the case well ........... THE OWNERS GREED WILL DESTROY THE NHL'S SUPERIORITY

Duchene makes $3 mil on his 2nd contract and still plays in the NHL...

 

[TheMightyWhale]

Look, I get why people like to be doom and gloom and say that the season is going to be lost, and maybe some of next season, but nobody has brought any substance as to WHY that would happen, because the truth is simple: neither side can afford to lose this season.

They're already flirting with disaster with this being the second lockout in eight years. And I know everyone reading this will list hockey in the top 1 or 2 of their favorite sports, but the fact is the NHL is the 4th most popular sport in America right now, and that's only being cemented further by this lockout. They do not have the luxury that the NFL had, where they were the only game in town and the most popular sport in the country. And by all accounts, it took MLB, America's past time, about five years to recover from Don Fehr's last rodeo.

Furthermore, nobody is coming out ahead in this PR MOD contest that's going on right now. Fans already had it against Bettman and the owners to begin with, and as evidenced by 75% of comments in here, the Players are now greedy meathead losers.

All this talk about projecting growth in NHL revenue can be kissed goodbye if they lose this season. They will be dealing with losses, and both sides will feel the immense hurt of that once they come to an agreement. They HAVE to come to an agreement or they won't be talking about splitting billions of dollars anymore.

 

[AHockeyGameBrokeOut*]

You know, 15-20 years ago, you could've said "Imagine the NHL without Gretzky, Lemieux, Lindros, Messier and Kevin Stevens"

Well...

Eventually you have to get new ones anyways

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Whatever Fuhr does, it won't be good for the game of hockey.

And we've already passed the 11th hour.

I must have slept for a week then, because I could swear it was Oct 20th today.

 

[ps241]

Posturing got the league to improve their offers and put two consecutive offers on the table while Fehr sat back and waited. He clearly has the league frustrated. Bettman doesn't know what Fehr will do... None of us really do. Hopefully, he is going to use that fear to his advantage to get the best deal he can at the eleventh hour.

This is all about how far the players want him to go and no matter what side we are on, all of us agree that with the latest slate of cancellations, the players will lose more than if they took rollbacks. So many may call the players fools and idiots, but I think most of them know 12 is lower than 20.

philosophically we might line up differently on this negotiation but I agree with the bolded part of your post. At the end of the day Don came into a tough situation. Hockey is not baseball so Don does not have the luxury of the leverage the players had in baseball. MLB is north of $7 billion in annual revenues many which are centralized and easy to share. The owners all make real money and are not interested in missing games. Hockey is a $3.3 billion dollar business with very little central revenue. The commissionaire of the NHL has done a good job with his constitution and has a solid power base and (love him or hate him) is a worthy adversary to Fehr.

My view is that coming into this process the players were happy with the current CBA and most of the owners were not. That is a tough position for Fehr to be in because he does not have the natural leverage.

To your point if Fehr is able to Huff and Puff and take this up to the 11th hour and cut a solid deal on the courthouse steps that preserves the full schedule and all his constituents paycheques I will be impressed. If they lose games and money to cut a similar deal at a later date then I will think he did the PA a disservice unless the players ignored his advice. At this point I will reserve judgement and wait to see how it ends up.

My belief is that both sides have not done anything the fans won't forgive them for in a few months if they are playing a full schedule. I really think they would both be wise to keep the eye on the big prize and that is driving the HRR north of $4 Billion in the next 3 to 5 years. To do that they would be wise to get back to patching things up with "US", the people who pay the bills and bleed the colours.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

My belief is that both sides have not done anything the fans won't forgive them for in a few months if they are playing a full schedule. I really think they would both be wise to keep the eye on the big prize and that is driving the HRR north of $4 Billion in the next 3 to 5 years. To do that they would be wise to get back to patching things up with the people who pay the bills and bleed the colours.

I honestly don't believe that this lockout, no matter the length (well ok assuming 1 year or less) will have the negative effect that many think it will. Some of the most hardcore fans are upset, a few ST holders will cancel and stuff, but in the long run, this is a minor blip on the radar. I remember the same proclamations of doom and gloom during the last lockout, how hockey will never be the same, the fans won't come back. Thing is, people love hockey. Taking it away just makes people want it more, as evidenced by people flocking back to the game in 05-06.

Jets have my money, it's not going anywhere. When it's back, I'll still be buying mechandise, I will still be buying concessions, and obviously keeping my ST tickets. It'll be the same for a majority of fans. I get that people are upset, but really if you love hockey, you'll be back more than likely. I know it sucks and gives the PA and NHL the leverage they want, but really there's no alternative.

 

[SpeedyLazaro]

it's not the diehard fans that we have to worry about.

it's the strategic partners of the NHL that abandon ship if this thing doesn't resolve itself.. Broadcast partners, advertisers, sponsors, etc.

hockey may be a gate drawing sport, but without the periphery partners and revenue it's done.

and for those of us that weren't in seats in 05-06, we were watching on OLN.... that's pathetic and embarrassing

I don't want to watch the NHL on Spike in 2013

 

[UnknownEric]

I'm beyond annoyed with both sides right now. Time is flying by, games are getting cancelled, and all Bettman and Fehr can pull out of their pockets for us fans are their respective middle fingers.

You know how bad things are getting for me? I'm actually looking forward to the NBA regular season. I don't even like basketball (or David Stern, for that matter). See what you've done to me, Bill Daly?

 

[AHockeyGameBrokeOut*]

it's not the diehard fans that we have to worry about.

it's the strategic partners of the NHL that abandon ship if this thing doesn't resolve itself.. Broadcast partners, advertisers, sponsors, etc.

hockey may be a gate drawing sport, but without the periphery partners and revenue it's done.

and for those of us that weren't in seats in 05-06, we were watching on OLN.... that's pathetic and embarrassing

I don't want to watch the NHL on Spike in 2013

NBC deal is for 10 years. No worries on that front

 

[Jigger77]

You know, 15-20 years ago, you could've said "Imagine the NHL without Gretzky, Lemieux, Lindros, Messier and Kevin Stevens"

Well...

Eventually you have to get new ones anyways

I think it was better then, but that's just me.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Theres 2 solid stances that neither are gonna budge on.
1)League wants cost certainty and to minimize their risk.
2)Players want their contracts they signed paid (close to) in full.

The sooner the PA side realizes the NHL isn't budging on #1, the faster this thing gets settled.

The sad thing is most players probably thought their proposals address #1. Future potential money saved isn't the same thing as #1.

At the very least, if they share the risk, they might actually get somewhere.

 

[Bill_Crosby*]

I honestly don't believe that this lockout, no matter the length (well ok assuming 1 year or less) will have the negative effect that many think it will. Some of the most hardcore fans are upset, a few ST holders will cancel and stuff, but in the long run, this is a minor blip on the radar. I remember the same proclamations of doom and gloom during the last lockout, how hockey will never be the same, the fans won't come back. Thing is, people love hockey. Taking it away just makes people want it more, as evidenced by people flocking back to the game in 05-06.

Jets have my money, it's not going anywhere. When it's back, I'll still be buying mechandise, I will still be buying concessions, and obviously keeping my ST tickets. It'll be the same for a majority of fans. I get that people are upset, but really if you love hockey, you'll be back more than likely. I know it sucks and gives the PA and NHL the leverage they want, but really there's no alternative.

I disagree with the sentiment that because I "love hockey" that I necessarily have to follow, or at least buy into, the NHL. I've been watching the CHL all season and legitimately enjoy the on-ice product more than what I've seen from the NHL the past few years. I paid $299 for a season pass of streamed OHL games and I'm going to do next year regardless of whether or not there is an NHL season.

It has nothing to do with you at all I'm just saying that if the NHL thinks there isn't an alternative for hockey lovers to turn too they're wrong.

 

[bobbyt911]

Duchene makes $3 mil on his 2nd contract and still plays in the NHL...

I hear ya and i doubt that if 2nd contracts become significantly less we will have an exodus of premier young talent to the KHL but i was playing devils advocate presenting something that could happen if 2nd contracts are limited by adjusting years and such. Also to the poster saying that McDavid making 7 mil is crazy should ask them selves what the KHL would have paid Crosby for a 2nd contract. Not saying McDavid will be Crosbyesq but he is being compared to him.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I disagree with the sentiment that because I "love hockey" that I necessarily have to follow, or at least buy into, the NHL. I've been watching the CHL all season and legitimately enjoy the on-ice product more than what I've seen from the NHL the past few years. I paid $299 for a season pass of streamed OHL games and I'm going to do next year regardless of whether or not there is an NHL season.

It has nothing to do with you at all I'm just saying that if the NHL thinks there isn't an alternative for hockey lovers to turn too they're wrong.

That's fine for you. I am not questioning whether or not you love hockey, there is plenty of people who love hockey that don't want/need the NHL. And there is for sure people that will not come back.

For me, I have no use for development leagues. NHL is where it's at for me, if not that I would (and am) follow KHL, SEL, NLA, SM-Liiga, etc. I want pro hockey. And I think most people will agree, the best hockey is there. Most people prefer the top level hockey, the NHL is just a more marketable product. I expect and and am not happy that the NHL will lose devoted fans, like you, but in reality I just don't believe despite the claims, that there is enough people to make a real difference.

EDIT: (Just a note, personally, for me the CHL hold absolutely no sway since I saw the seedy underbelly of what happens in the WHL, I have no use for it, but I'm not trying to take away from people that legitimately like that league).

 

[SuperUnknown]

I hear ya and i doubt that if 2nd contracts become significantly less we will have an exodus of premier young talent to the KHL but i was playing devils advocate presenting something that could happen if 2nd contracts are limited by adjusting years and such. Also to the poster saying that McDavid making 7 mil is crazy should ask them selves what the KHL would have paid Crosby for a 2nd contract. Not saying McDavid will be Crosbyesq but he is being compared to him.

There's more than $$$ that differentiates KHL and NHL. KHL games don't always have a medical team (no doctor) or ambulance ready at the game. That's one security element but there are others. The 2nd contract isn't going to last forever and players will stay in the NHL with the intention of eventually getting to the big payday.

 

[hizzoner]

The players want 57% of over 3 billion dollars which the nhl brings in.and most of the teams lose money..does anyone think the khl makes that kind of money? Huge tv contracts? Sellouts of 20,000 fans ?? You think american and canadian families will want to live in Siberia? Those Russian oligarchs who play with the sport for fun will get tired of it if they have to pay out 60 million a year to the players plus supply first class facilities, meals, airflight, hotels etc.....as for the Russian mafia and the secret police--if you think that is a distant memory you will find lots of Russians who disagree....Other those who are comfortable in Putin land having been raised there I see no exodus. Airline crashes. Player dying at the rink because no defribillator...oh yeah...leave my friends and family rather than go from 8 million to seven and a half? Why do Russian bigwigs leave Russia for medical attention? Gary Bettman and company will not be afraid of that.

 

[kdb209]

The NHL is not putting any limits on second contracts. They are removing one year from ELC so a player gets to negotiate his first non-ECL contract after 2 years instead of 3 years. They are hoping this change will help reduce the amount of these contracts.

They are putting in place mechanisms to put drags on those 2nd contracts - while they are reducing the ELS length by a year (for 18-21 yos), they are pushing back arbitration and UFA eligibility by a year.

For a player who breaks in at 18 yo.

18 yo: ELS
19 yo: ELS
20 yo: RFA, no arbitration rights
21 yo: RFA, no arbitration rights
22 yo: RFA, no arbitration rights
23 yo: RFA, arbitration eligible
24 yo: RFA, arbitration eligible
25 yo: RFA, arbitration eligible
26 yo: UFA eligible

The player would have very little leverage coming off their ELS deal, other than an Offer Sheet or a holdout - and with the 5 year limit on contracts they would still be an RFA at the end of their second contract.

In addition, they are removing the limits on team elected arbitration, allowing the team to take a player to arbitration every year until they hit UFA age if they chose - and those reduced no-leverage second contracts would be the comps.

 

[ps241]

I honestly don't believe that this lockout, no matter the length (well ok assuming 1 year or less) will have the negative effect that many think it will. Some of the most hardcore fans are upset, a few ST holders will cancel and stuff, but in the long run, this is a minor blip on the radar. I remember the same proclamations of doom and gloom during the last lockout, how hockey will never be the same, the fans won't come back. Thing is, people love hockey. Taking it away just makes people want it more, as evidenced by people flocking back to the game in 05-06.

Jets have my money, it's not going anywhere. When it's back, I'll still be buying mechandise, I will still be buying concessions, and obviously keeping my ST tickets. It'll be the same for a majority of fans. I get that people are upset, but really if you love hockey, you'll be back more than likely. I know it sucks and gives the PA and NHL the leverage they want, but really there's no alternative.

You absolutely could be right but why test the theory if they don't have to? Hockey has experienced very nice comparative year on year growth so why not just keep building on that momentum. To me the sides are not far enough apart to roll the dice.

 

[bobbyt911]

That's fine for you. I am not questioning whether or not you love hockey, there is plenty of people who love hockey that don't want/need the NHL. And there is for sure people that will not come back.

For me, I have no use for development leagues. NHL is where it's at for me, if not that I would (and am) follow KHL, SEL, NLA, SM-Liiga, etc. I want pro hockey. And I think most people will agree, the best hockey is there. Most people prefer the top level hockey, the NHL is just a more marketable product. I expect and and am not happy that the NHL will lose devoted fans, like you, but in reality I just don't believe despite the claims, that there is enough people to make a real difference.

EDIT: (Just a note, personally, for me the CHL hold absolutely no sway since I saw the seedy underbelly of what happens in the WHL, I have no use for it, but I'm not trying to take away from people that legitimately like that league).

May I ask what the shady dealings of the WHL were? Are you able to PM me if not fit for public forum. Or are you talking about how signed players get the prime development ice time rather than the best players on the team? I follow the Kitchener Rangers and Crescenzi used to get a ton of ice time I felt he shouldn't have.

They are putting in place mechanisms to put drags on those 2nd contracts - while they are reducing the ELS length by a year (for 18-21 yos), they are pushing back arbitration and UFA eligibility by a year.

For a player who breaks in at 18 yo.

18 yo: ELS
19 yo: ELS
20 yo: RFA, no arbitration rights
21 yo: RFA, no arbitration rights
22 yo: RFA, no arbitration rights
23 yo: RFA, arbitration eligible
24 yo: RFA, arbitration eligible
25 yo: RFA, arbitration eligible
26 yo: UFA eligible

The player would have very little leverage coming off their ELS deal, other than an Offer Sheet or a holdout - and with the 5 year limit on contracts they would still be an RFA at the end of their second contract.

In addition, they are removing the limits on team elected arbitration, allowing the team to take a player to arbitration every year until they hit UFA age if they chose - and those reduced no-leverage second contracts would be the comps.

Exactly!!! I'm sure you can see my concern when a Stamkos, Crosby etc is 20 and is looking at 1-3(maybe slightly more) in the NHL is totally at risk of being poached away by other pro leagues who can and will offer 6++ for a 20yr old who may be the best hockey player in the world. Right now the NHL has the $$ and the best players going for it. So players like Ovi, Malkin etc come over for the $$ and to play against the best but say by 2022 after 9 years of the KHL poaching the top players just out of their ELC the NHL will no longer have the best players and the KHL's current sit would be greatly enhanced even by 2013. Sure the KHL is small potatoes now but just imagine what could happen if they start to get the best youngsters and find away to have all of European leagues form into one league the NHL would be doomed. So the owners greed could kill the NHL in 10-12 years

 

[madhi19]

They are putting in place mechanisms to put drags on those 2nd contracts - while they are reducing the ELS length by a year (for 18-21 yos), they are pushing back arbitration and UFA eligibility by a year.

For a player who breaks in at 18 yo.

18 yo: ELS
19 yo: ELS
20 yo: RFA, no arbitration rights
21 yo: RFA, no arbitration rights
22 yo: RFA, no arbitration rights
23 yo: RFA, arbitration eligible
24 yo: RFA, arbitration eligible
25 yo: RFA, arbitration eligible
26 yo: UFA eligible

The player would have very little leverage coming off their ELS deal, other than an Offer Sheet or a holdout - and with the 5 year limit on contracts they would still be an RFA at the end of their second contract.

In addition, they are removing the limits on team elected arbitration, allowing the team to take a player to arbitration every year until they hit UFA age if they chose - and those reduced no-leverage second contracts would be the comps.

That right there is likely one of the reasons the PA is playing hardball. They might compromise on the % of HRR but you mess with UFA and RFA status and you mess with everybody bread and butter.

 

[AHockeyGameBrokeOut*]

That right there is likely one of the reasons the PA is playing hardball. They might compromise on the % of HRR but you mess with UFA and RFA status and you mess with everybody bread and butter.

The latest PA proposals don't even mention UFA/RFA status, it's all about HRR.

 

[rdawg1234]

The latest PA proposals don't even mention UFA/RFA status, it's all about HRR.

which is odd to me, I thought they'd at least speak on or compromise on some of the contract issues.

they could ask for a one year advance on UFA's in exchange for contract limits. as well as many other things. Instead they offer a simplistic delinkage proposal again.

I really hope they come back with another proposal, that addresses all matter seriously and actually is linked.

 

[Satoru Gojo]

http://triblive.com/mobile/msports/...ue-labor-oct-agreement-penguins-owners-season

Labor experts see the lockout ending quite soon..