You Never Give Me Your Money.. (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part XII

[Ari91]

The amount taken off the top to pay 'old' contracts happens to be exactly the amount that is withheld from what a 'true' 50/50 share wold be. As long as money is taken off the top, new contracts suffer.

Ironically, I think the problem with Fehr's letters is that he treats the players like a collection of people, just like the league does.

Here is the number of NHL UFA's in next couple of years: 32%, 22%, 9%, 9%. So if he said ok, for 30% of you, this is the situation and actually broke it down under both systems, I guarantee there would be revolt.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[bobbyt911]

One aspect on the NHL latest proposal that really concerns me is the attempt to limit the 2nd contract. I listened to the Kevin Westgarth interview posted earlier and I can see a major issue stemming from imposing limits on 2nd contracts. It is true how most of the players winning the awards and the best players are in that 2nd contract area. Soo lets rewind a few years-present and pretend that 2nd contracts are limited to a max of 2-3 mil/yr well kiss your elite talent good bye. The KHL would have paid Crosby, Stamkos, Doughty, Ovi, Malkin, Giroux, Karlsson, Tavares, Towes, Eberle, Seguin, Hall, Quick and many others I missed way more than the NHL would/will. Imagine the NHL without Crosby, Stamkos, Doughty, Ovi, Malkin, Giroux, Karlsson, Tavares, Towes, Eberle, Seguin, Hall, Quick I don't mean with out as they never existed but with out as every hockey fan in the world knows these are the best in the world and their playing in the KHL. Thats going to start players refusing to report to their NHL draft club and go over seas right out of Jr. Once the elite veterans finish out their contracts the NHL would become a north American KHL where all the best players want to play with the best in the KHL and those who aren't good enough play in the NHL or the few who want to be close to home for less $$. The reason the NHL is the best league is because it pays the best pure and simple, once that is no longer the case well ........... THE OWNERS GREED WILL DESTROY THE NHL'S SUPERIORITY

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Within 10 days we will either have a season or a complete cancellation of all remaining games, based on the current situation. No in-betweens.

Lol...there is no way they'd cancel the entire season by end of the October. If they have no deal in 10 days I doubt they'd even cancel the Winter Classic or All-Star game at that point.

 

[Mike Jones]

Is it part of Daly's job description to set these things up? When I read these updates, it seems like he's always the one in contact with the other side and Bettman just shows up to the meetings.

The focus groups like Daly better.

He must love rubbing that in with Bettman in the lunch room...

 

[Pepper]

Once the elite veterans finish out their contracts the NHL would become a north American KHL where all the best players want to play with the best in the KHL and those who aren't good enough play in the NHL or the few who want to be close to home for less $$. The reason the NHL is the best league is because it pays the best pure and simple, once that is no longer the case well ........... THE OWNERS GREED WILL DESTROY THE NHL'S SUPERIORITY

Dear god. NHL average salary is close to 10x of KHL's average salary. If the new CBA gives the NHL players "only" 9x the average of KHL, do you seriously think that KHL is a real option to most NHLers, especially those not from Russia?

 

[bobbyt911]

Dear god. NHL average salary is close to 10x of KHL's average salary. If the new CBA gives the NHL players "only" 9x the average of KHL, do you seriously think that KHL is a real option to most NHLers, especially those not from Russia?

Its not an option for most NHLers but the ones that would be affected most by the limited 2nd contract for sure. It would be a snow ball affect. Since they had a whole new slew of top young talent they would probably get some big $$ North American T.V contracts there by increasing their ability to pay their players and so on.....

 

[bobbyt911]

One aspect on the NHL latest proposal that really concerns me is the attempt to limit the 2nd contract. I listened to the Kevin Westgarth interview posted earlier and I can see a major issue stemming from imposing limits on 2nd contracts. It is true how most of the players winning the awards and the best players are in that 2nd contract area. Soo lets rewind a few years-present and pretend that 2nd contracts are limited to a max of 2-3 mil/yr well kiss your elite talent good bye. The KHL would have paid Crosby, Stamkos, Doughty, Ovi, Malkin, Giroux, Karlsson, Tavares, Towes, Eberle, Seguin, Hall, Quick and many others I missed way more than the NHL would/will. Imagine the NHL without Crosby, Stamkos, Doughty, Ovi, Malkin, Giroux, Karlsson, Tavares, Towes, Eberle, Seguin, Hall, Quick I don't mean with out as they never existed but with out as every hockey fan in the world knows these are the best in the world and their playing in the KHL. Thats going to start players refusing to report to their NHL draft club and go over seas right out of Jr. Once the elite veterans finish out their contracts the NHL would become a north American KHL where all the best players want to play with the best in the KHL and those who aren't good enough play in the NHL or the few who want to be close to home for less $$. The reason the NHL is the best league is because it pays the best pure and simple, once that is no longer the case well ........... THE OWNERS GREED WILL DESTROY THE NHL'S SUPERIORITY


Its not an option for most NHLers but the ones that would be affected most by the limited 2nd contract for sure. It would be a snow ball affect. Since they had a whole new slew of top young talent they would probably get some big $$ North American T.V contracts there by increasing their ability to pay their players and so on.....

oops

 

[rdawg1234]

lol if anyone thinks a NA born star will want to play in the KHL for a long time. Unless you're russian it's very doubtful you're gonna wanna move to Russia for the next 5-10 years and get less pay.

 

[Pepper]

Its not an option for most NHLers but the ones that would be affected most by the limited 2nd contract for sure. It would be a snow ball affect. Since they had a whole new slew of top young talent they would probably get some big $$ North American T.V contracts there by increasing their ability to pay their players and so on.....

Uhhuh. Most of KHL operates on timezones 8 to 10 hours from prime time US zones, meaning that KHL would have to play at 2-5AM to get NA audience.

btw, what are the limits to 2nd contracts that would make KHL attractive?

 

[TCsmyth]

Fehr is the best at what he does. If you dislike him, fine, if you think he is bad for hockey, fine, but he's the Wayne Gretzky of professional sports union representatives.

If there is anything in Damien Cox's article about Don Fehr that is true as it relates to the last meeting, then I would call him a "hack" and an amateur businessman...far from Gretzky.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

New York Rangers Gretzky, maybe. We'll have to see how this situation is resolved, but Fehr's baseball record is impeccable.

 

[AHockeyGameBrokeOut*]

Lol...there is no way they'd cancel the entire season by end of the October. If they have no deal in 10 days I doubt they'd even cancel the Winter Classic or All-Star game at that point.

'Move indoors' date for the WC is already announced and ready to go

 

[bobbyt911]

lol if anyone thinks a NA born star will want to play in the KHL for a long time. Unless you're russian it's very doubtful you're gonna wanna move to Russia for the next 5-10 years and get less pay.

Yea man why do you think many top Russian players come here? If the NHL implements the restrictions on 2nd contracts the young guys will get more $$ over there.

Uhhuh. Most of KHL operates on timezones 8 to 10 hours from prime time US zones, meaning that KHL would have to play at 2-5AM to get NA audience.

btw, what are the limits to 2nd contracts that would make KHL attractive?

Hey I know a ton of hockey fans who would watch games 2-5 am From what I gather the NHL wants to have 2nd contracts around a max of 2-3 mil. So guys like McDavid in a few yrs could get 7++ over there.

I am basically playing devils advocate and pointing out what could happen if 2nd contracts are mandated at a low limit. From what I am reading most assume the players are all about the $$$ so of course they would go over to get 175% or more of what the NHL would give. Then in time because of the quality of KHL player increasing and the new N.A superstars their revenue should increase thus allowing them to lure top UFA's as well. The NHL is the best because it pays the best and the Owners trying to cheap out may put that in jeopardy.

 

[TCsmyth]

New York Rangers Gretzky, maybe. We'll have to see how this situation is resolved, but Fehr's baseball record is impeccable.

Now Powdered, you have made an impressive move toward my offered opinion. Maybe we have the basis to bridge the gap and agree on an opinion.

 

[rdawg1234]

Yea man why do you think many top Russian players come here? If the NHL implements the restrictions on 2nd contracts the young guys will get more $$ over there.



Hey I know a ton of hockey fans who would watch games 2-5 am From what I gather the NHL wants to have 2nd contracts around a max of 2-3 mil. So guys like McDavid in a few yrs could get 7++ over there.

I am basically playing devils advocate and pointing out what could happen if 2nd contracts are mandated at a low limit. From what I am reading most assume the players are all about the $$$ so of course they would go over to get 175% or more of what the NHL would give. Then in time because of the quality of KHL player increasing and the new N.A superstars their revenue should increase thus allowing them to lure top UFA's as well. The NHL is the best because it pays the best and the Owners trying to cheap out may put that in jeopardy.

Not sure what you mean by cheap out. 50/50 in about 2-3 years means the players will be getting over 2billion of the HRR share. the KHL probably makes half that at best.

or do you mean 5 year contract limits? The players should offer a direct tweak to that if they dont like it. but I cant see them having a massive issue with say 8 year limits.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

Now Powdered, you have made an impressive move toward my offered opinion. Maybe we have the basis to bridge the gap and agree on an opinion.

I'm sorry, I need three weeks to hold a variety of focus groups in order to determine the most appropriate response. I expect to be compensated for the expense.

 

[bobbyt911]

Not sure what you mean by cheap out. 50/50 in about 2-3 years means the players will be getting over 2billion of the HRR share. the KHL probably makes half that at best.

or do you mean 5 year contract limits? The players should offer a direct tweak to that if they dont like it. but I cant see them having a massive issue with say 8 year limits.

I'm all for the 5-7 year contract limits and the 5% max variance/yr. What I meant by cheap out is too restrictive limits on 2nd contracts that could lead to the top 10-20 young players every 3-5 years being able to make double or more overseas.

 

[Pepper]

Yea man why do you think many top Russian players come here? If the NHL implements the restrictions on 2nd contracts the young guys will get more $$ over there.

What restrictions??

Hey I know a ton of hockey fans who would watch games 2-5 am From what I gather the NHL wants to have 2nd contracts around a max of 2-3 mil. So guys like McDavid in a few yrs could get 7++ over there.

McDavid making 7M+ in KHL? Oh dear, you HAVE to be kidding.

KHL scheduling games to 2-5am. I don't know what to say.

I am basically playing devils advocate and pointing out what could happen if 2nd contracts are mandated at a low limit.

What limit?

 

[Pepper]

Not sure what you mean by cheap out. 50/50 in about 2-3 years means the players will be getting over 2billion of the HRR share. the KHL probably makes half that at best.

HALF? It's not even close. Few hunder millions AT BEST.

 

[Butch 19]

Posturing got the league to improve their offers and put two consecutive offers on the table while Fehr sat back and waited. He clearly has the league frustrated. Bettman doesn't know what Fehr will do... None of us really do. Hopefully, he is going to use that fear to his advantage to get the best deal he can at the eleventh hour.

Whatever Fuhr does, it won't be good for the game of hockey.

And we've already passed the 11th hour.

 

[LadyStanley]

Lol...there is no way they'd cancel the entire season by end of the October. If they have no deal in 10 days I doubt they'd even cancel the Winter Classic or All-Star game at that point.

I don't think that's correct.

The ASG requires (usually) fan voting for the "starters" (and help put together the pool for the rest of the attendees). So, that usually starts in early November and runs for two months or so (or to just about Christmas). So, I'd guess that the ASG and all the games to US Thanksgiving eve would be cancelled circa 11/2.

It has been thought with the HBO 24/7 "lead up" the "Winter Classic" would need "hockey" to begin by US Thanksgiving. And for that to happen means that camp would start by 11/15. So, I'm thinking that's the deadline for the WC.


The full season was cancelled in January, 2005, IIRC.

 

[kfan22]

I don't think that's correct.

The ASG requires (usually) fan voting for the "starters" (and help put together the pool for the rest of the attendees). So, that usually starts in early November and runs for two months or so (or to just about Christmas). So, I'd guess that the ASG and all the games to US Thanksgiving eve would be cancelled circa 11/2.

It has been thought with the HBO 24/7 "lead up" the "Winter Classic" would need "hockey" to begin by US Thanksgiving. And for that to happen means that camp would start by 11/15. So, I'm thinking that's the deadline for the WC.


The full season was cancelled in January, 2005, IIRC.

February 16th

 

[rdawg1234]

I don't think that's correct.

The ASG requires (usually) fan voting for the "starters" (and help put together the pool for the rest of the attendees). So, that usually starts in early November and runs for two months or so (or to just about Christmas). So, I'd guess that the ASG and all the games to US Thanksgiving eve would be cancelled circa 11/2.

It has been thought with the HBO 24/7 "lead up" the "Winter Classic" would need "hockey" to begin by US Thanksgiving. And for that to happen means that camp would start by 11/15. So, I'm thinking that's the deadline for the WC.


The full season was cancelled in January, 2005, IIRC.

makes sense, so essentially the deadline for all games until january is Nov 15th?

 

[Chiuozu*]

This very little doubt for me that this lockout will swallow an entire season, and possibly more.

Way to much egotism, bad-blood, and greed and no trust on both sides.

This will only end when the landscape of the NHLPA or NHL changes with either Bettman or Fehr losing their jobs.

Doesn't matter how many NHLs want to bring the lockout to an end - as long as the super 3 owners don't - nothing will happen.

The players feel they got bent over in the last CBA, and they have a lot of bad-blood with the NHL. They hired Fehr for this very reason - they're out for blood.

No way they will consent to giving up even more without gaining something significant. They already feel they gave up a lot last CBA - That resentment has boiled over into this one.

Hell, they are still stuck in the bickering stage.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I don't think that's correct.

The ASG requires (usually) fan voting for the "starters" (and help put together the pool for the rest of the attendees). So, that usually starts in early November and runs for two months or so (or to just about Christmas). So, I'd guess that the ASG and all the games to US Thanksgiving eve would be cancelled circa 11/2.

It has been thought with the HBO 24/7 "lead up" the "Winter Classic" would need "hockey" to begin by US Thanksgiving. And for that to happen means that camp would start by 11/15. So, I'm thinking that's the deadline for the WC.


The full season was cancelled in January, 2005, IIRC.

I think your pretty much bang on for the dates for cancelling the big events.

Just a note, in 1994-95 a deal was signed on January 11, 1995. A 48 games schedule was salvaged, the season started January 20, 1995.

The people saying the season is gone already if we can't get a deal done soon are wrong, IMO.

We still got plenty of time to get a season in, in reality I don't feel the sides are as far apart as they are saying. It seems many of the issues they agree on in principle, it's just implementation details, I am still hopeful for the 82 game season.