Yep, another ESPN thread (MOD: Soccer popularity)

[Epsilon]

Even using the obviously flawed metric of mean attendance per game, that claim seems dubious. The NFL, MLB, NCAA FBS (Div. I-A) football, and NASCAR almost certainly average more than 17,300 per game.

 

[MayDay]

Soccer people grasping at straws again.

Comparing an outdoor sport that plays a short season in larger stadia with much cheaper ticket prices, to an indoor sport that plays many more home games in smaller arenas with much higher ticket prices. And then claiming that per-game average attendance is the measure of popularity.

It's a completely disingenuous and flawed argument, and moreover, they know it is, and yet they try to make it over and over. Maybe they think if they repeat a falsehood enough times, that will make it true. Or at least convince people who lack critical reasoning skills.

I'll tell you what. When the MLS gets anywhere close to the NHL in annual ticket revenues (which is a much better measure, since it shows how much the fanbase is willing to spend to follow the team every year), then we can have a conversation about which sport is more popular as a spectator sport. I wouldn't even consider other measures of popularity (revenues from merchandise and TV) which have the NHL far, far ahead of the MLS.

 

[NinthSpoke06]

MLS Stadium Capacities:
Chicago - 20,000
Chivas - 27,000
Colorado - 19,680
Columbus - 20,455
Dallas - 21,193
D.C. - 46,000
Houston - 32,000
Kansas City - 18,467
Los Angeles - 27,000
New England - 22,385 (they reduce capacity for soccer games because attendance is awful)
New York - 25,189
Philadelphia - 18,500
Portland - 19,000
San Jose - 10,300
Salt Lake - 20,008
Seattle - 35,700
Toronto - 21,800
Vancouver - 20,500

NHL Capacities:
Anaheim Ducks - 17,174
Atlanta Thrashers - 18,545 (using Atlanta because we have no figures on Winnipeg)
Boston Bruins - 17,565
Buffalo Sabres - 18,690
Calgary Flames - 19,289
Carolina Hurricanes - 18,680
Chicago Blackhawks - 19,717
Colorado Avalanche - 18,007
Columbus Blue Jackets - 18,144
Dallas Stars - 18,532
Detroit Red Wings - 20,066
Edmonton Oilers - 16,839
Florida Panthers - 19,250
Los Angeles Kings - 18,118
Minnesota Wild - 18,064
Montreal Canadiens - 21,273
Nashville Predators - 17,113
New Jersey Devils - 17,625
New York Islanders - 16,250
New York Rangers - 18,200
Ottawa Senators - 19,153
Philadelphia Flyers - 19,537
Phoenix Coyotes - 17,125
Pittsburgh Penguins - 18,087
Saint Louis Blues - 19,150
San Jose Sharks - 17,562
Tampa Bay Lightning - 19,758
Toronto Maple Leafs - 18,819
Vancouver Canucks - 18,860
Washington Capitals - 18,398

MLS Average Capacity - 23,621
MLS Average Attendence - 17,297
MLS Average Att. Percent - 73%

NHL Average Capacity - 18,453
NHL Average Attendence - 16,600
NHL Average Att. Percent - 90%

Yeah, MLS sure is kicking the NHL's ass! That is not even taking into account the higher ticket prices in the NHL and more games.

 

[EmeticDonut]

ESPN said that the woman's World Cup goal on Sunday was the fifth most dramatic thing of all time. Over the shot heard round the world, Kirk Gibson's home run, and Roger Clemens appearing in George Steinbrenner after signing with the Yankees. So yeah they are really trying to push soccer. Its a nice goal and all but let's have some perspective.

I have no idea what these are.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Stop the insanity.

NHL total attendance 2010-11: 21 million
MLS total attendance 2010: 4 million

 

[hatterson]

ESPN said that the woman's World Cup goal on Sunday was the fifth most dramatic thing of all time. Over the shot heard round the world, Kirk Gibson's home run, and Roger Clemens appearing in George Steinbrenner after signing with the Yankees. So yeah they are really trying to push soccer. Its a nice goal and all but let's have some perspective.

- No idea what the shot heard round the world is
- I've heard of Kirk Gibson a few times but thought he was a pitcher
- A player showing up with the owner after signing a contract? How is that dramatic?
- What's #4?

Edit: wait, I read that wrong, those things were less dramatic than the world cup goal...nevermind.

 

[the overrated]

I think people are getting upset over nothing; the bolded part in the initial post isn't saying that soccer is more popular than hockey, it's just saying that it has a larger number of fans attending games. They're not talking attendance percentages or overall popularity, but merely the number of people that are going to games.

With that said ...

If you're simply counting fans at "games" then NASCAR is the number 1 sport in the country.

If you're counting people per year then it's likely Basketball, Hockey, Football, MLS, NASCAR, bla bla bla. Although I probably missed a few I don't care about.

Either way, it's not much to get worried about. It's a soccer writer attempting to legitimize his sport, pretty much to be expected for a growing sport.

hatterson nailed it with that first sentence, IMHO. If the writer of the article wanted to really list the sports (and for the sake of my post, NASCAR & golf are 'sports') in order, soccer and hockey are both lower than 4th, as the other "big three" would likely be higher and then there'd be the nontraditional sports like driving & golf ahead of them, too.

 

[Pentothal]

I'll tell you what. When the MLS gets anywhere close to the NHL in annual ticket revenues (which is a much better measure, since it shows how much the fanbase is willing to spend to follow the team every year), then we can have a conversation about which sport is more popular as a spectator sport. I wouldn't even consider other measures of popularity (revenues from merchandise and TV) which have the NHL far, far ahead of the MLS.

Soccer players can't play 82 games + playoffs so total attendance isn't really a fair comparison either. NHL would look pretty good against the NFL as well this way, wouldn't it?

It's quite hard to find out which sport is more popular since the games are different in number of games, maximum attendance etc..

Maybe compare how many TV viewers watch the US games in the World Cup and Winter Olympics.. or playoff final vs playoff final.. or something.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

I have no idea what these are.

All are baseball related.

Kirk Gibson's homer is the most amazing thing I've ever seen in sports. Wasn't playing due to an injury, and hit a game winning home run off the most dominant relief picture in the sport (Dennis Eckersley of the Oakland A's).

88 World Series, I think.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

- No idea what the shot heard round the world is

Believe this is Bobby Thompson's homerun that won the pennant for the Giants back in the 50's. Is baseball legend because the Giants staged such a comeback in the final month of the season to catch the Dodgers and force a playoff -- the game in which Thompson hit is homer.

Or maybe it was Mazeroski's homerun in the World Series in the early 60's.

 

[ds246pit]

ESPN said that the woman's World Cup goal on Sunday was the fifth most dramatic thing of all time. Over the shot heard round the world, Kirk Gibson's home run, and Roger Clemens appearing in George Steinbrenner after signing with the Yankees. So yeah they are really trying to push soccer. Its a nice goal and all but let's have some perspective.

What's funny is they did a vote on i believe the Dan Patrick show and it wasn't even the most dramatic event of the weekend. Derek Jeter hitting a homerun for his 3000 hit was the most watched/talked about event of the weekend.

 

[Schalkenullvier*]

Well, you have to take into consideration that the NHL is the Best League in the world, while the MLS is a **** League where no single World Class player is under contract

 

[BubbaBoot]

MLS Stadium Capacities:
New England - 22,385 (they reduce capacity for soccer games because attendance is awful)

A little bias here perhaps?

They are down this year because the team sucks but the real reason is because they play in Foxborough Stadium and have closed off the upper bowls since day 1 except for big exhibitions, (I was one of the 68,000+ in the stands during the 2004 MLS Cup).

It's the worst stadiums for soccer in the MLS. It's a pain in the ass to get to and has phony turf. Once they build a soccer specific stadium somewhere closer to Boston I gaurantee the numbers will go up.

 

[Roomtemperature]

- No idea what the shot heard round the world is
- I've heard of Kirk Gibson a few times but thought he was a pitcher
- A player showing up with the owner after signing a contract? How is that dramatic?
- What's #4?

Edit: wait, I read that wrong, those things were less dramatic than the world cup goal...nevermind.

1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_Heard_'Round_the_World_(baseball)
Look up the radio call its the famous "GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT"

2)
Kirk Gibson hit a home run when he came up as a pinch hitter after being injured for most of the game

3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdtn0Z4o8cM

4) I was just repeating about the Woman's World Cup goal

 

[kingsholygrail]

The growing latino population in the US could verify this.

 

[hatterson]

Soccer players can't play 82 games + playoffs so total attendance isn't really a fair comparison either. NHL would look pretty good against the NFL as well this way, wouldn't it?

It's quite hard to find out which sport is more popular since the games are different in number of games, maximum attendance etc..

Maybe compare how many TV viewers watch the US games in the World Cup and Winter Olympics.. or playoff final vs playoff final.. or something.

I'd say TV revenue/ratings as well as cumulative money spent on tickets for an entire year are decent indicators.

Although it's always going to be hard to compare an "event" sport like Football or NASCAR (same time every week) with a more free flowing scheduled sport like Hockey or Basketball

 

[BubbaBoot]

Well, you have to take into consideration that the NHL is the Best League in the world, while the MLS is a **** League where no single World Class player is under contract

Though they have developed some world class players......Clint Dempsey comes to mind immediately....and the NE Revs haven't been the same since he left.

 

[hatterson]

1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_Heard_'Round_the_World_(baseball)
Look up the radio call its the famous "GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT"

2)
Kirk Gibson hit a home run when he came up as a pinch hitter after being injured for most of the game

3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdtn0Z4o8cM

4) I was just repeating about the Woman's World Cup goal

Someone needs to put a muzzle on that woman...wow that was annoying

 

[Roomtemperature]

Someone needs to put a muzzle on that woman...wow that was annoying

When anyone complains about NHL broadcaster remember its never as bad as the Yankees radio team.

 

[MayDay]

Stop the insanity.

NHL total attendance 2010-11: 21 million
MLS total attendance 2010: 4 million

Annual attendance per team (2010-11):
NHL: 680,600
MLS: 250,125

Average ticket prices:
NHL: $54.25
MLS: ~$25.00 (it was $22.47 a couple years ago, which is the most recent I could find)

Annual ticket revenues per team (2010-11):
NHL: $36.9 million
MLS: $6.3 million

Conclusion: the two leagues are not even close in popularity, even if we are looking at paid attendance alone

 

[MayDay]

Soccer players can't play 82 games + playoffs so total attendance isn't really a fair comparison either. NHL would look pretty good against the NFL as well this way, wouldn't it?

No, not really.

The NFL plays far fewer games than the NHL, but charges a much higher average ticket price. Ticket revenues for the NFL are very high, despite playing a short season.

 

[Murphy9]

Did anyone actually watch that soccer game.It was pretty good.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think people are getting upset over nothing; the bolded part in the initial post isn't saying that soccer is more popular than hockey, it's just saying that it has a larger number of fans attending games.

Except that there aren't a larger number of fans attending games. The NHL has over 50% more teams and plays several times the number of games.

 

[Pentothal]

I'd say TV revenue/ratings as well as cumulative money spent on tickets for an entire year are decent indicators.

Although it's always going to be hard to compare an "event" sport like Football or NASCAR (same time every week) with a more free flowing scheduled sport like Hockey or Basketball

You're on to something here, but I still think total revenue from tickets will put the NHL at an advantage, because of the sheer number of games. Also the Canadian teams will skew the numbers if we're only talking about the US.. are we?

Though they have developed some world class players......Clint Dempsey comes to mind immediately....and the NE Revs haven't been the same since he left.

Dempsey is as much of a world class player as he is a world class rapper

Honestly I rate him, but he's far from world class. He's the football equivalent of a decent third liner in terms of overall quality.

 

[BubbaBoot]

Annual attendance per team (2010-11):
NHL: 680,600
MLS: 250,125

Average ticket prices:
NHL: $54.25
MLS: ~$25.00 (it was $22.47 a couple years ago, which is the most recent I could find)

Annual ticket revenues per team (2010-11):
NHL: $36.9 million
MLS: $6.3 million

Conclusion: the two leagues are not even close in popularity, even if we are looking at paid attendance alone

Number of teams:
NHL - 30
MLS - 18 (2 new teams this year)

Number of games / season:
NHL - 82
MLS - 34

Average capacity this season:
NHL - 17,460 (2009/10)
MLS - 17,400 (to date)