Yep, another ESPN thread (MOD: Soccer popularity)

kdb209

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Believe this is Bobby Thompson's homerun that won the pennant for the Giants back in the 50's. Is baseball legend because the Giants staged such a comeback in the final month of the season to catch the Dodgers and force a playoff -- the game in which Thompson hit is homer.

Yup. 1951 Bobby Thomson of the Giants hit a 3 run homer in the bottom of the 9th to send the Giants to the World Series.

Russ Hodges call (on the radio) is perhaps the most famous play-by-play call in MLB history:

Bobby Thomson... up there swingin'... He's had two out of three, a single and a double, and Billy Cox is playing him right on the third-base line... One out, last of the ninth... Branca pitches... Bobby Thomson takes a strike called on the inside corner... Bobby hitting at .292... He's had a single and a double and he drove in the Giants' first run with a long fly to center... Brooklyn leads it 4-2...Hartung down the line at third not taking any chances... Lockman with not too big of a lead at second, but he'll be runnin' like the wind if Thomson hits one... Branca throws... [audible sound of bat meeting ball]

There's a long drive... it's gonna be, I believe...THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT! Bobby Thomson hits into the lower deck of the left-field stands! The Giants win the pennant and they're goin' crazy, they're goin' crazy! HEEEY-OH!!!'' [ten-second pause for crowd noise]

I don't believe it! I don't believe it! I do not believe it! Bobby Thomson... hit a line drive... into the lower deck... of the left-field stands... and this blame place is goin' crazy! The Giants! Horace Stoneham has got a winner! The Giants won it... by a score of 5 to 4... and they're pickin' Bobby Thomson up... and carryin' him off the field!

Some backstory:

The Giants were 13 1/2 games behind the Dodgers in mid August and won 37 of their last 44 games to force a tie with the Dodgers.

They played a 3 game series as a tie breaker. The split the first two and the Dodgers were up 4-1 going to the bottom of the 9th in Game 3.

The Daily News dubbed it the "Shot heard 'round the world" and the name stuck.

It is generally listed as the greatest / most famous event in MLB history. The Sporting News' "Baseball's 25 Greatest Moments" has it at #1 - Gibson's shot is #6.

edit: Even ESPN. They listed it as the #2 greatest game of all time in their SportsCentury list - behind only the 1958 NFL championship game and even ahead of the Miracle on Ice (#4).
 
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BubbaBoot

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You're on to something here, but I still think total revenue from tickets will put the NHL at an advantage, because of the sheer number of games. Also the Canadian teams will skew the numbers if we're only talking about the US.. are we?



Dempsey is as much of a world class player as he is a world class rapper :sarcasm:

Honestly I rate him, but he's far from world class. He's the football equivalent of a decent third liner in terms of overall quality.

Hm, a 3rd liner who's currently tied at 6th in the EPL in goal scoring with 12 goals, (the same amount as the vaunted Drogba and 1 more than Rooney). The league has 2 guys tied at #1 with 20 goals.

He ain't chump change.
 

Pentothal

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No, not really.

The NFL plays far fewer games than the NHL, but charges a much higher average ticket price. Ticket revenues for the NFL are very high, despite playing a short season.

Alright cheers.. You'd think the scarceness of games in the NFL would work as a disadvantage still though even if their numbers seem to be the highest still.

it's an interesting topic although I know far too little about some of the other American sports so I should probably keep away from this discussion.


Hm, a 3rd liner who's currently tied at 6th in the EPL in goal scoring with 12 goals, (the same amount as the vaunted Drogba and 1 more than Rooney). The league has 2 guys tied at #1 with 20 goals.

He ain't chump change.

Yeah, maybe I underrated him a bit.. Make him a second liner then. He's had a great year no doubt, but he's not world class though. In my experience, that's usually an honor reserved for someone who's top 5-10 in his position. I don't rate Berbatov and his 20 goals as a world class player either for that matter (and I'm a United fan). There's a reason Dempsey's still at a club like Fulham and not sought after by football's biggest (and richest) clubs.
 

codswallop

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ESPN trying to pimp one of their products, by slamming a product of one of their competitors. I have zero love for ESPN, but this is pretty standard protocol. No need to get so riled about it.

I love both sports almost equally, so I'm not about to bash either of them. From an article that clearly has an agenda, not sure why so many see it as threatening. But whatever...

Glad to see MLS making at least a little headway. No way they're going to rival the bigger leagues in the world with how they are structured right now. But that might not be a bad thing. While other leagues have a lot more quality, they also have a lot more serious financial problems. Can't say whether those problems will eventually lead to a boom for MLS, but it certainly isn't leading anywhere good for the big European leagues.
 

MayDay

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Number of teams:
NHL - 30
MLS - 18 (2 new teams this year)

Yes, that's why I posted per team averages. Maybe you missed that part.


Number of games / season:
NHL - 82
MLS - 34

Which goes to my point. Length of season (number of home games) is a relevant factor (as are ticket prices, etc.). A team that can sell 17,000 tickets 41 times per year (at a much higher ticket price) is much more popular than a team that can sell 17,000 tickets 15 times per year (at a much lower price, even).

Just admit it. A straight-up comparison of per game attendance doesn't really mean much of anything, and the fact that soccer people keep on pointing to it as the main indicator of league popularity tells me that they are making a knowingly and intentionally misleading claim.

I'll stop criticizing the MLS and soccer the moment the soccer people stop making such idiotic arguments and stop obsessing over "passing" the NHL in popularity.
 

dma0034

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I wonder what ESPN is going to do next year when the NBA is locked out. I'm guessing soccor and jousting.... should be quite a riveting year for ratings.

Other than football..... isn't hockey the sport thats revenue is going the most? ( I could be wrong)
 

Kaner Coffee

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I really hope that the people who don't know what the shot heard round the world and Kirk Gibson's home run are aren't Americans. Or that the CIA knows that we have some Russian spies...
 

codswallop

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Yeah, maybe I underrated him a bit.. Make him a second liner then. He's had a great year no doubt, but he's not world class though. In my experience, that's usually an honor reserved for someone who's top 5-10 in his position. I don't rate Berbatov and his 20 goals as a world class player either for that matter (and I'm a United fan). There's a reason Dempsey's still at a club like Fulham and not sought after by football's biggest (and richest) clubs.

He has had some of the bigger teams interested in him the last couple years. Not the top flight 6-8 mind you, which means he's not in that upper tier of players.

But that's not a bad thing. From a development standpoint, it's better for Dempsey to play at a small to medium sized team in a top flight European league. He'll pretty much always start and play as much as possible. While his qualilty might improve playing with better players at a richer team, he'll likely ride the bench more than get on the pitch. Playing as many matches as possible trumps being benched (regardless who you train with every week).

Prestige and trophies go to players on those top teams. But I've never been a fan of how they operate. Overpay for established stars, overpay for up-and-comers who usually never reach their potential. Easier to always be in the mix for titles when only a handful of teams can rival your spending power.
 

FunkySeeFunkyDoo

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I wonder what ESPN is going to do next year when the NBA is locked out. I'm guessing soccor and jousting.... should be quite a riveting year for ratings.

Other than football..... isn't hockey the sport thats revenue is going the most? ( I could be wrong)

Could be, but much of the recent growth in hockey revenue is due to the increase in the Cdn $ (or decline in the US $, depending on your POV).
 

MayDay

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Very true, but I was just stating that having a large population of latinos in Florida doesnt mean soccer will flourish there.

Especially considering that a lot of the Latinos in Florida are likely Cuban, Dominican, and Puerto Rican. Also known as, three places where baseball is king.

I love the people who act like all Latinos are the same though. :rolleyes:
 

Pentothal

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It's not even close
He has had some of the bigger teams interested in him the last couple years. Not the top flight 6-8 mind you, which means he's not in that upper tier of players.

But that's not a bad thing. From a development standpoint, it's better for Dempsey to play at a small to medium sized team in a top flight European league. He'll pretty much always start and play as much as possible. While his qualilty might improve playing with better players at a richer team, he'll likely ride the bench more than get on the pitch. Playing as many matches as possible trumps being benched (regardless who you train with every week).

Prestige and trophies go to players on those top teams. But I've never been a fan of how they operate. Overpay for established stars, overpay for up-and-comers who usually never reach their potential. Easier to always be in the mix for titles when only a handful of teams can rival your spending power.

Agree with much of that, except for the last bit. Not all big clubs are run that way. Some manage to stay at the top of the game but still have a lot of homegrown players which gives the teams identity. Just look at Barcelona. You still have to spend once in a while though, but it's about finding the right balance.
 

the overrated

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Except that there aren't a larger number of fans attending games. The NHL has over 50% more teams and plays several times the number of games.

I don't think the original article is talking about cumulative attendance, though. The number of games and the number of teams are irrelevant; they're talking about the number of people that are, on average, attending each individual game.

And I'm honestly taking the article quoted by OP on its word, and am presuming that the 17,297 referenced in that article is indeed larger, per game, than the NHL draws.
 

tarheelhockey

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I don't think the original article is talking about cumulative attendance, though. The number of games and the number of teams are irrelevant; they're talking about the number of people that are, on average, attending each individual game.

The problem is in the following line:

"It means that in terms of fans at games MLS has overtaken Ice Hockey as the fourth most popular sport in the United States. "


Which is patently not true if MLS only sells about 20% as many tickets as the NHL.
 

EJsens1

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While the story does sensationalize the MLS pretty good, the MLS has made some strides considering it is still a relatively new league still cutting it's teeth in a market that has cared less for soccer for decades.

Let's not kid anyone though, hockey is still a laughing stock compared to soccer world wide.
 

MayDay

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The number of games and the number of teams are irrelevant; they're talking about the number of people that are, on average, attending each individual game.

On the contrary, the number of games is very relevant, because a team that can draw X fans every game over a long season is certainly more popular than a team that can draw X fans over a short season.

Per game attendance is an almost meaningless statistic, when presented devoid of any context. It is contingent on many factors: venue capacity, schedule (number of weekend vs. weeknight dates), ticket prices, number of games per season, etc. All these factors are relevant in interpreting what the game attendance tells us about popularity (which is the conclusion that the article is trying to make).
 

Canjo

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Well, you have to take into consideration that the NHL is the Best League in the world, while the MLS is a **** League where no single World Class player is under contract

for me thats the thing that makes me like the MLS. I cant stand watching European soccer, its brutal because everyone is is being paid more than I can even imagine, and the diving and obvious feeling of entitlement of the players is ridiculous. meanwhile, the MLS is is a second rate league, yes, but for soccer I think that actually makes it more entertaining, players dont automatically get calls for being on the ground and whining like you see in soccer everywhere else it seems, there is more scoring and physical play, and every player isnt a complete tool, like I noticed in the world cup last summer, all the supposed best players in the world were complete ***** on the field. that being said, and having defended the MLS as much as I care to, the NHL is better, hockey is better, and It always will be, and no matter what ESPN says, it is :yo:
 

codswallop

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Agree with much of that, except for the last bit. Not all big clubs are run that way. Some manage to stay at the top of the game but still have a lot of homegrown players which gives the teams identity. Just look at Barcelona. You still have to spend once in a while though, but it's about finding the right balance.

That's something I've always been a bit hazy about; the youth/development programs of the clubs. Not sure how much it costs to run those programs, and if it's a wide gap between clubs similar to tha actual teams.

If it is more of a money issue, then my point still stands. If the big clubs have all this cash and put together high-end youth programs that less rich clubs can't match, then of course they are going to attract more of the better young players. That still wouldn't be identity or building from within, that's just using your money to get the kids when they are really young.
If it's not a money issue, then you can pretty much disregard all that.

Barcelona has been good about developing players and keeping them. But then again, that goes with having a massive budget to be able to keep the stars and pay them. And when they spend, they do like the other rich teams; outbid everyone. Like this year with Cesc; they are likely going to get him but pay more than they should. That's a steep price to pay for someone who may not be a regular starter with their already-stacked midfield.
 

James Duthie

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MLS is a joke of a league, what makes me laugh is how some of the best teams in there don't even fill up the stadiums. The league is full of guys that would be considerd a bench player in a true league. Heck if MLS had a sick soccer player, I'm sure he'll follow the money to Europe. ESPN is a stupid website and they just have no love for hockey, don't even know why they botherd to cover the olympic game if they had to intererest in it.
 

Ogrezilla

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I really hope that the people who don't know what the shot heard round the world and Kirk Gibson's home run are aren't Americans. Or that the CIA knows that we have some Russian spies...

Why? I don't watch all that much baseball, when I do it's the Pirates, and I was 2 in 1988. I mean, ya, the shot heard round the world was a pretty big deal. But I don't think I would consider the revolutionary war a sports moment :laugh: Seriously though, my parents weren't even born in 1951.

Also, I wish the MLS was a better league. I love soccer. That woman's goal was absolutely HUGE.
 

His Beardliness*

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It's impressive if you consider that NHL, MLB, NBA and NFL are the biggest and best leagues for their respective sports while MLS is probably not even top 20.

Go soccer!
 

Burningblades

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Did anyone point out the NBA averaged 17,109 last year so according to that assumption the MLS is more popular then the NBA too. In my opinion the best indicator or a sports popularity is its total revenue let people talk with there wallets.
 

IU Hawks fan

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Did anyone point out the NBA averaged 17,109 last year so according to that assumption the MLS is more popular then the NBA too. In my opinion the best indicator or a sports popularity is its total revenue let people talk with there wallets.

When I was posting the OP I wanted to but couldn't find a link to the NBA average and didn't feel like using this to go through and do the math to find it myself as I was at work.
 

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