Would elite defensive centers make good Dman?

[Slap]

If they're great skating backwards, maybe. Most of them aren't.

Anyone who can skate knows how to skate backwards. I find this talk among people who never played hockey amusing. Backwards skating is not rocket science. It's among the first things you'll be taught when you start playing hockey.

 

[Pukboy5kroner]

Why? Elite positioning, strong as a bull, filthy hands and elite IQ. He'd be great in every position.

He’s great on the boards in both ends, has pretty sound IQ, and is strong on the puck. Like Kopitar, I just don’t think he has the skating ability to be that effective as a defenseman.

That’s not a slight on him at all, as I think players who could switch positions that drastically are very few at the NHL level. Like you, as a kid, I played defense and center, mostly because I was strong for my age and a solid skater (in any direction). But I don’t think that anecdote is applicable when competing with the best of the best. In the NHL, there are a few players who have switched back and forth from forward to defense or vice versa (5 on 5): Fedorov, Burns, Walker, Dandenault, and a truckload of goons. Most who did weren’t elite at either position.

 

[Pukboy5kroner]

Regarding your comment about skating backward, it’s not a matter of knowing how or being able to so much as doing it well.

 

[Slap]

He’s great on the boards in both ends, has pretty sound IQ, and is strong on the puck. Like Kopitar, I just don’t think he has the skating ability to be that effective as a defenseman.

That’s not a slight on him at all, as I think players who could switch positions that drastically are very few at the NHL level. Like you, as a kid, I played defense and center, mostly because I was strong for my age and a solid skater (in any direction). But I don’t think that anecdote is applicable when competing with the best of the best. In the NHL, there are a few players who have switched back and forth from forward to defense or vice versa (5 on 5): Fedorov, Burns, Walker, Dandenault, and a truckload of goons. Most who did weren’t elite at either position.

I realize it's a big switch in the pros but if a guy like Sammy Kapanen could do it without losing a step the the odds are the truly elite players could also do it.

 

[JD1]

Fedorov was probably the best skater the NHL has ever seen.He was pretty unique and difficult to compair his skills to other forwards.

bingo....get that man a cigar

the skating is completely different from D to F (C). it isn't easy to switch which is why you see it so infrequently. its not an issue of mentality, mindset, hockey iq. first and foremost you'd need to be able to skate at an nhl level to make that switch.

off the top of my head Fedorov and Burns are the only two that have done this for any stretch h of time since 1990? And at that their switching is limited as long time fans would recognize Fedorov as a C and Burns as a D.

 

[Pukboy5kroner]

I realize it's a big switch in the pros but if a guy like Sammy Kapanen could do it without losing a step the the odds are the truly elite players could also do it.

I agree that it’s possible, but Barkov lacks something Kapanen had in abundance.

 

[Slap]

I agree that it’s possible, but Barkov lacks something Kapanen had in abundance.

While Kapanen was among the greatest hockey skaters of all time the rest of his tools were nowhere near Barkov. Being elite at skating is not a must for a D man. Barkov looks just fine at skating this year. Much more agile than before. I'd say he is a good skater for a kid of his size.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

I'm surprised by the answers here. Have any of you played D at any level? No matter how good you are as a defensive forward, there is one thing forwards are missing in their defensive tools: gap control. It's a foreign concept for the "elite defensive centers", because they don't defend in the same way. Defending as a center and defending as a Dman are two completely different things. Not to mention that most forwards in the NHL aren't as good as their D counterparts at skating backwards and crossing over to keep the opposing forwards to the outside.

I'm not saying that none of the "elite defensive centers" is capable of doing, I'm just saying that most wouldn't be able.

Someone mentioned the fact that Kopitar doesn't skate well backwards. That disqualifies him automatically.

 

[Slap]

I'm surprised by the answers here. Have any of you played D at any level? No matter how good you are as a defensive forward, there is one thing forwards are missing in their defensive tools: gap control. It's a foreign concept for the "elite defensive centers", because they don't defend in the same way. Defending as a center and defending as a Dman are two completely different things. Not to mention that most forwards in the NHL aren't as good as their D counterparts at skating backwards and crossing over to keep the opposing forwards to the outside.

I'm not saying that none of the "elite defensive centers" is capable of doing, I'm just saying that most wouldn't be able.

Someone mentioned the fact that Kopitar doesn't skate well backwards. That disqualifies him automatically.

Things like gap control feel pretty automatic to me. As I said before, being an elite skater is not a must. Chara was always a clumsy skater, Pronger wasn't that good either. Positioning is much more important than being fast.

Edit: Kopitar being bad at skating backwards might be because he spent his early years in Slovenia, where people don't know much about hockey. If he started playing in Sweden, he'd possibly be even better than he is currently.

 

[BruinDust]

If they're great skating backwards, maybe. Most of them aren't.

The vast majority of NHL players (if not all) can skate back-wards just fine. Kopitar if he's one who struggles would be an outlier.

Centers and wingers have to skate back-wards in all sorts of in-game situations.

Where NHL forwards can get in trouble is when they have to cover for a D-man, and then have to defend an elite level forward one-on-one, the comfort/confidence level just isn't there, and the experience of knowing when to close gaps defending one-on-one.

 

[BruinDust]

I doubt they have a very good grasp of how the position is even supposed to be played...

If they have the hockey intelligence to play C (the hardest position IMO by far in terms of knowing where to be), they can likely figure out how to play as a D-man pretty quickly.

 

[Regal]

I mean generally speaking, but some centers are so good defensively they can be used as defenseman, not Kesler though. I find him overrated defensively. The only merit he has defensively is he takes tough competition and is trusted defensively, but Bergeron, Datsyuk, Toews, Kopitar etc are tasked with similar tough competition and defensive zone starts and produce far better results.

Depends what you mean by defense. Kesler is elite without the puck, but he's a north-south player who doesn't have the same offensive/possession skills of the other players that eat up zone time and keep the other team out of his end as often. That might not be as relevant as a defenseman.

Good dmen? As in NHL level good? Absolutely not. Some of them might survive a period or even a game but in general they'd be abysmal. Don't kid yourself.

I think it's really hard to say. In the early days a lot of forwards made the switch to defense as they lost speed and were good at both. The game is obviously more structured now, but there's been a numbers of modern playwrs who've played both positions adequately in the NHL, including Burns who was great at both

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Things like gap control feel pretty automatic to me. As I said before, being an elite skater is not a must. Chara was always a clumsy skater, Pronger wasn't that good either. Positioning is much more important than being fast.

Edit: Kopitar being bad at skating backwards might be because he spent his early years in Slovenia, where people don't know much about hockey. If he started playing in Sweden, he'd possibly be even better than he is currently.

Maybe it's an obvious thing at whichever level you're playing at, but imagine having to control the gap between you and guys like McDavid or Kane. One little mistake and they burn you. If actual NHL defensemen struggle at it, I can't see any forward doing well in that regard. In fact, most star forwards get burned when they have to defend for their D.

 

[Slap]

Maybe it's an obvious thing at whichever level you're playing at, but imagine having to control the gap between you and guys like McDavid or Kane. One little mistake and they burn you. If actual NHL defensemen struggle at it, I can't see any forward doing well in that regard. In fact, most star forwards get burned when they have to defend for their D.

I never played that high, went to a few NT camps and 2nd tier men's league before my bum knee gave up. Why can't you see Star forwards doing it well, when Feds and Kapanen did it and Burns is doing it right now?

 

[Mick Riddleton]

When Bergeron was playing with Marchand and Crosby and some of the offensive defensemen he was filling back on dee a few times during the shifts. He did alright because guys like him understand the danger spots on the ice. Now can he block shots and clear out the front of the net, that is a learned skill set, probably easier to go to forward from the dee position.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

I never played that high, went to a few NT camps and 2nd tier men's league before my bum knee gave up. Why can't you see Star forwards doing it well, when Feds and Kapanen did it and Burns is doing it right now?

Fedorov was an exceptional skater, and grew up playing in a system where all 5 players functioned as a unit and were capable of being switched around. Kapanen was a very gifted skater too.

 

[skillhockey]

Anyone who can skate knows how to skate backwards. I find this talk among people who never played hockey amusing. Backwards skating is not rocket science. It's among the first things you'll be taught when you start playing hockey.

It's totally different thing skating backwards and trying to stop Mcdavid on a rush. I'm Finnish and been skating since age 4 or 5.

 

[JD1]

If they have the hockey intelligence to play C (the hardest position IMO by far in terms of knowing where to be), they can likely figure out how to play as a D-man pretty quickly.

so if that were true then you'd expect that we'd see 18 year old D breaking into the nhl regularly and Cs being held back to get used to the pro game.

there is a reason that it takes D longer to be NHL ready.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

There's a difference between 'skating backwards just fine' and doing it well enough to defend NHL forwards every night. I have no doubt most elite forwards can skate backwards very, very well, but lateral movement, explosiveness, gap control...those things aren't as automatic as they seem. Yes, some guys can do it, and there are obviously some examples, but generally speaking I don't think you can make that assumption that even most can adjust.

Ever seen how far the average forward backs off when having to cover for a d-man defending a rush? it's comical. It takes finely-honed, practiced skill to learn how to manage your speed and space while staying close to elite players every single play night in and night out. That's not just something you randomly switch to, it's not like being an outfielder.

 

[Trap Jesus]

They're just different skill-sets. When you talk about the best defensive forwards, forechecking, neutral zone play, and backchecking are huge parts of it. There is a little bit of overlap in the D-zone, but still very different roles. It's tough to say how the best defensive forwards would do with things like clearing out the front of the net and gap control when the opposition is breaking into the O-zone.

In reference to Bergeron, we've seen him play a bit on the back-end with PPs and just very frequently covering the point when the D-man pinches, but not enough to form a real opinion on it. I will say though that something he would have down pat is getting pucks out of danger areas into a safe spot. He's constantly making plays in support in the D-zone where he'll chip it out of harm's way to a teammate. I think that is something that would translate very well.

Anyways, here's a sample of play from Bergeron in a D-man's role:

 

[Frank Drebin]

I wonder if they could transition to goalie? I mean all you have to do is learn the basics of positioning, they already have elite hand eye coordination, doesn't sound too hard to me.

 

[Slap]

It's totally different thing skating backwards and trying to stop Mcdavid on a rush. I'm Finnish and been skating since age 4 or 5.

Congrats on being a backwards ready finnish dude I guess. No one is asking you to stop McDaddy, so calm down.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

If they have the hockey intelligence to play C (the hardest position IMO by far in terms of knowing where to be), they can likely figure out how to play as a D-man pretty quickly.

At this level, playing D is equally hard as playing C. The positioning of a D is not obvious at all, and the knowledge of when to pinch or when to retreat is only acquired with years of experience in the NHL. There's a reason why defensemen take longer to develop in the NHL than centers.