Worst GM in the league #2

[Volica]

This year Niemela, Hirvonen, Villeneuve, and Miettenen were all great value picks, Robertson and Abramov last season, Der Arguchintsev. These are all players that were on my radar pre draft and continue to excel. I'm bet there are more that weren't that are excelling, as I don't pay attention to Leafs prospects the way I do Jets. For my money the Leafs are top 5 in drafting potential impact players outside the first round in the league right now. They'll need a lot of luck, as is always the case with drafting and developing, to catch what Yzerman did but like I said, they have a chance to come close.

k. Bunch of ‘value’ picks equate to Kucherov, Point and Cirelli.
Dubas’ draft record is pretty much undetermined, he’s only been GM for a few seasons. You don’t know how a GM drafts until likely 5 years post job.

 

[Atoyot]

You made the claim he’s been proven right. So back it up.
A lot of GMs have at least had playoff success. Dubas’ team has regressed every year since he took over. He’s proven nothing at this point.

I mean, you're the one claiming he's the 2nd worst GM in the league, so the onus is on you to back that up. So why is the GM who has built a perennial playoff team still in its infancy while drafting high potential players who aren't far removed enough from the draft yet that they could start competing for a spot in the league and attracts and keeps players from UFA the 2nd worse GM in the league? What makes him worse than the GMs of teams that are perennially out of the playoffs?

 

[Atoyot]

k. Bunch of ‘value’ picks equate to Kucherov, Point and Cirelli.
Dubas’ draft record is pretty much undetermined, he’s only been GM for a few seasons. You don’t know how a GM drafts until likely 5 years post job.

Yep. That's why I'm talking speculatively and not factually, just like I had to do for all those players on Tampa before they were in the NHL. For now though he's batting very high in terms of probability of his picks making it.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I mean, you're the one claiming he's the 2nd worst GM in the league, so the onus is on you to back that up. So why is the GM who has built a perennial playoff team still in its infancy while drafting high potential players who aren't far removed enough from the draft yet that they could start competing for a spot in the league and attracts and keeps players from UFA the 2nd worse GM in the league? What makes him worse than the GMs of teams that are perennially out of the playoffs?

Love to build a perennial playoff team by inheriting a playoff team and then missing the playoffs in my second year

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I mean, you're the one claiming he's the 2nd worst GM in the league, so the onus is on you to back that up. So why is the GM who has built a perennial playoff team still in its infancy while drafting high potential players who aren't far removed enough from the draft yet that they could start competing for a spot in the league and attracts and keeps players from UFA the 2nd worse GM in the league? What makes him worse than the GMs of teams that are perennially out of the playoffs?

If you’re going to debate in good faith then you shouldn’t just make things up and hope you won’t get called on it. That’s twice now that you’ve done that.
Dubas didn’t build a perennial playoff team in its infancy. He inherited a team that had just set a record for most points by a Leafs team with 105 points. Since then they’ve regressed each year. When he took over the team was projected to be a perennial cup contender. Not a playoff bubble team.

 

[Golden_Jet]

This year Niemela, Hirvonen, Villeneuve, and Miettenen were all great value picks, Robertson and Abramov last season, Der Arguchintsev. These are all players that were on my radar pre draft and continue to excel. I'm bet there are more that weren't that are excelling, as I don't pay attention to Leafs prospects the way I do Jets. For my money the Leafs are top 5 in drafting potential impact players outside the first round in the league right now. They'll need a lot of luck, as is always the case with drafting and developing, to catch what Yzerman did but like I said, they have a chance to come close.

Lol, they haven’t played any NHL games, that is your proof, Robertson has 4 games, every GM can make those claims after a draft. The problem with the Leafs they never find talent past the first round for years, not like Sens, Tampa, Detroit and many others, who find later round gems.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Lol, they haven’t played any NHL games, that is your proof, Robertson has 4 games, every GM can make those claims after a draft. The problem with the Leafs they never find talent past the first round for years, not like Sens, Tampa, Detroit and many others, who find later round gems.

The people who view prospects and rank them say the Leafs have great deopth and strong prospects. This "Haven't played a game" is nonsense. Neither has any other prospects. The point is the prospects have delevloped greatly. Robertson looks terrific as a prospect for 53rd overall.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

If you’re going to debate in good faith then you shouldn’t just make things up and hope you won’t get called on it. That’s twice now that you’ve done that.
Dubas didn’t build a perennial playoff team in its infancy. He inherited a team that had just set a record for most points by a Leafs team with 105 points. Since then they’ve regressed each year. When he took over the team was projected to be a perennial cup contender. Not a playoff bubble team.
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2020 Stanley Cup Champions: Winnipeg Jets (thehockeywriters.com)

BTW, I love the "He Inherited 105 point team from Lou" argument. Are you aware Dubas was hired BEFORE Lou was Leafs GM? He had traded Kessel away and traded for Hyman before Lou became GM. He's been with the Leafs since 2014 and even won a Calder cup for the organization 2 weeks after being named Leafs GM. He built part of that team before being named GM. You make it sound like he was hired from another organization and had no hand in anything.
And regressed from what? They had won 0 playoff rounds. His new coach had them at a 103 point pace with tons of injuries last year. That 105 point team was 2nd more healthy in the NHL that year.

 

[Atoyot]

If you’re going to debate in good faith then you shouldn’t just make things up and hope you won’t get called on it. That’s twice now that you’ve done that.
Dubas didn’t build a perennial playoff team in its infancy. He inherited a team that had just set a record for most points by a Leafs team with 105 points. Since then they’ve regressed each year. When he took over the team was projected to be a perennial cup contender. Not a playoff bubble team.
View attachment 377551

I had forgotten about that honestly, wasn't deliberate my apologies. I'm a Jets' fan, as you've clearly pieced together, hate the Leafs. But I do like 90% of what Dubas has done and that's a lot more than a lot of GMs, including my own. From what I'm seeing he's solidifying the top for years to come and drafting great support players that will cycle in on their ELCs to provide depth and then be traded off for assets if when they get to a point that they've earned more money, then they'll draft and do it all again. He's doing exactly what, again in my mind, you need to do to have sustained success in this league and I love it and that's fine if you don't agree, I just can't understand thinking that he's the 2nd worst GM in the league without there being some kind of bias behind it, be it from hating the Leafs or wanting an analytically driven GM to fail.

 

[Atoyot]

Lol, they haven’t played any NHL games, that is your proof, Robertson has 4 games, every GM can make those claims after a draft. The problem with the Leafs they never find talent past the first round for years, not like Sens, Tampa, Detroit and many others, who find later round gems.

Yep, hence why everything I said was clearly laid out as speculative and not factual from the beginning.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Love to build a perennial playoff team by inheriting a playoff team and then missing the playoffs in my second year

Hired by the Leafs 6 years ago. He helped build the team. He was running the 2018 Marlies cup winner.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The people who view prospects and rank them say the Leafs have great deopth and strong prospects. This "Haven't played a game" is nonsense. Neither has any other prospects. The point is the prospects have delevloped greatly. Robertson looks terrific as a prospect for 53rd overall.

1 guy played 4 games, having just been drafted does not make great drafting records, you need to wait and see if they develop, if they can excel in the AHL, then ya they have a good chance at becoming an NHLer. Apparently you have no idea on drafting and history of drafts.

I saw one of those great lists, Leafs were top 3 and he ranked Senators prospects like 12th. Lol at lists like those. in stats you can toss the outliers like those.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

You made the claim he’s been proven right. So back it up.
A lot of GMs have at least had playoff success. Dubas’ team has regressed every year since he took over. He’s proven nothing at this point.

THe Canucks winning 1 round does not mean they've proven anything.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yep, hence why everything I said was clearly laid out as speculative and not factual from the beginning.

After you were called out on it. Your original post how all these are guys who have excelled, and how you missed some guys that have excelled even.

 

[Golden_Jet]

THe Canucks winning 1 round does not mean they've proven anything.

1 round in 1 year vs zero rounds in 17 years is not a strong comeback on your part.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

In Kapanen’s defence, third line wings don’t put up 20 goals or 44 points. He is a top 6 player but was stuck behind some stars in Toronto, should get a better opportunity in Pittsburgh.

Wait a minute, I thought Leafs had no depth because they pay 40 milion to 4 forwards? Isn't it funny he gets that amount for a 3rd liner so the Pens can play him on the 1st line?

Nate Scmidt goes for a 3rd rounder and Kapanen gets Amirov and Hallander. the same month...

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I had forgotten about that honestly, wasn't deliberate my apologies. I'm a Jets' fan, as you've clearly pieced together, hate the Leafs. But I do like 90% of what Dubas has done and that's a lot more than a lot of GMs, including my own. From what I'm seeing he's solidifying the top for years to come and drafting great support players that will cycle in on their ELCs to provide depth and then be traded off for assets if when they get to a point that they've earned more money, then they'll draft and do it all again. He's doing exactly what, again in my mind, you need to do to have sustained success in this league and I love it and that's fine if you don't agree, I just can't understand thinking that he's the 2nd worst GM in the league without there being some kind of bias behind it, be it from hating the Leafs or wanting an analytically driven GM to fail.

I guess we disagree on who is biased then. If you would have told me three years ago that the 105 point Leaf team would have added Tavares and have regressed to a playoff bubble team that has not won a single playoff series then I would have laughed at you. But here we are.
A lot of posters said you can’t build a winning team with half of the cap allocated to four offense first forwards while ignoring two way play, depth and grit. So far those people have been shown to be right.
We’ve seen in every major sport that when the playoffs come around the game changes and a team needs to have strong defensive play, lots of quality depth and lots of grit. Dubas believed differently. So far he’s been proven wrong.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

1 round in 1 year vs zero rounds in 17 years is not a strong comeback on your part.

No playoff wins since 2004 does not make them less of a contender next year than Vancouver.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I guess we disagree on who is biased then. If you would have told me three years ago that the 105 point Leaf team would have added Tavares and have regressed to a playoff bubble team that has not won a single playoff series then I would have laughed at you. But here we are.
A lot of posters said you can’t build a winning team with half of the cap allocated to four offense first forwards while ignoring two way play and grit. So far those people have been shown to be right.

And you think a team can win a cup like Vancouver while litterally wasting 25 making on nothing? Seriously, have you seen the cap waste on your own team? At least the 40 million players put up great stats and 3 of 4 are stars, while the guy at 6.9 is a solid 1st liner.
I'll easily take the Leafs cap situation over Vancouver and it's not close.

Look at this, what a mess. Dubas is paying the same for Thornton, Simmonds and Bogosian COMBINED as Benning is for Jay Beagle. Beagle and ROBERTO LUONGO make almost as much as william Nylander LOL. But let me guess, 24 year-old 31 goal scorer Nylander is overpaid? Why is Sutter making 4.4 million? Jason Spezza at 700K was better last year for 3.7 less.

Vancouver Canucks - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[lakai17]

Why is Billy G getting votes? kind of early.

 

[Garbage Goal]

It’s pretty easily Guerin or Rutherford for me. I was on to Rutherford being overrated and bad as soon as he started in Pittsburgh (back when people were high on him and Pittsburgh fans liked to argue he was why they won a Cup instead of a roster rich with elite talent.

I forgot about Rutherford before voting, so I’d probably change it to him but Guerin has been pretty bad in a very short amount of time thus far.

 

[Fatass]

In Kapanen’s defence, third line wings don’t put up 20 goals or 44 points. He is a top 6 player but was stuck behind some stars in Toronto, should get a better opportunity in Pittsburgh.

Kapanen is a fantastic PK guy too. Rutherford did well getting Kap.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

k. Bunch of ‘value’ picks equate to Kucherov, Point and Cirelli.
Dubas’ draft record is pretty much undetermined, he’s only been GM for a few seasons. You don’t know how a GM drafts until likely 5 years post job.

Not long enough to determine his drafting abilities, but long enough to name him 2nd worsr GM and say he should be fired.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Kapanen is a fantastic PK guy too. Rutherford did well getting Kap.

He overpaid though.
Nate Scmidt went for a 3rd rounder, Kapanen went for Amirov and Hallandar...

 

[Fatass]

He overpaid though.

Good move by Dubas to move out Kap, and a good move by Rutherford to get Kap. I don’t know if Benning made any good moves this off season.