Worst Cup Winning Team, Roster Wise.

[tarheelhockey]

we The best part about this argument is Canes fans are getting so defensive yet refusing to name another team.

There are a bunch of posts that name other teams. I guess people assumed you read them?

A team that retains 90% of its top players from one season to the next is fundamentally the same.

Fundamentally does not equal exactly the same.

The critical differences are:

1) Ward crumbled under the burden of a full season schedule

2) The team wasn't 4 lines deep anymore. They lost about a middle-6 line's worth of talent from the prior regular season, and double that from the playoffs.


The only way they were going to overcome Ward's .897 and still make the playoffs was if the whole group of forwards and defense stepped up. But that was a team that replaced (as noted several times above) Gerber, Weight, Stillman, Recchi, Cullen, Ward, and Kaberle with a uniformly unsuccessful group of replacements. You simply aren't going to make the playoffs with a bad starting goalie AND huge holes in your lineup. Trust me, the Canes have been trying to do that since 2010 and it hasn't worked a single time.

 

[Eisen]

It's beyond a "handful of moves" but the substantive quality of those changes that matters. If you can't understand that then I'm not sure we can have an honest discussion. Exchanging Kevyn Adams, Matt Cullen, Martin Gerber, Mark Recchi, Oleg Tverdovski, Aaron Ward, and Doug Weight for Anson Carter, Tim Gleason, John Grahame, Trevor Letowski, Dennis Seidenberg, David Tanabe, and Scott Walker is a pretty clear net negative. Especially Gerber for Grahame where you go from having a solid starter and a capable backup (the Gerber/Ward pairing) to a green starter and a mediocre backup (Ward/Grahame). Then you gut your 3rd line and weaken your defense by letting Cullen and A. Ward walk in free agency...yeah, no. That's not fundamentally the same.

I never got why they moved Gerber. He had a great season and good postseason until he got a flu or something. That, to me, was the worst move. He got ditched for a hot rookie.

 

[DaveG]

I never got why they moved Gerber. He had a great season and good postseason until he got a flu or something. That, to me, was the worst move. He got ditched for a hot rookie.

They didn't move him, he signed with Ottawa as a UFA. All indications were the Canes wanted to keep him but he wanted to be sure he had a #1 job rather then platooning.

His post-season started off awful as well. He had the flu down the stretch in the regular season and was down 20lbs at the start of the playoffs. They didn't pull him til game 2 of the Montreal series, after 9 goals against on 34 shots (6 on 21 in game 1, 3 on 13 in game 2 in the first).

 

[george14]

There are a bunch of posts that name other teams. I guess people assumed you read them?

Yes and those teams have been riddled with HOF'ers lol. The teams I have seen so far are the:

- 94 Rangers: Messier, Graves, Zubov, Leetch, Kovalev, Gartner, Amonte, Larmer, Richter.
- 95 + 00 + 03 Devils: Brodeur, Stevens, Guerin, Niedermayer, Broten, MacLean, Elias, Gomez, Rafalski, Nieuwendyk, Gionta
- 99 Stars: Modano, Hull, Nieuwendyk, Hatcher, Belfour, Zubov, Lehtinen
- 86 + 93 Habs: Roy, Chelios, Gainey, Robinson, Naslund, Claude Lemieux, Bobby Smith, Damphousse, Bellows, Muller

 

[BLNY]

67 Leafs.... I believe theyre the only Cup winners to have negative GF/GA difference during the season
86 and 93 Habs ...

I get the 86 Habs. They finished second in the Adams with less than 90 points. 1993 I've never understood the hate.

That 93 was a 100 point team. They led the division until the last couple of weeks when they hit the skids. No 100 point player, but Damphousse and Muller were close and led a very balanced attack. They had a young, mobile, defense core. That was a darn good team.

 

[DaveG]

I get the 86 Habs. They finished second in the Adams with less than 90 points. 1993 I've never understood the hate.

That 93 was a 100 point team. They led the division until the last couple of weeks when they hit the skids. No 100 point player, but Damphousse and Muller were close and led a very balanced attack. They had a young, mobile, defense core. That was a darn good team.

A lot of the hate for 93 isn't necessarily even because of the Habs themselves IMHO. They had just happened to run into a perfect set of circumstances and ended up being able to "duck" the best team in the league that year (by a mile) in Pittsburgh and faced an inferior LA team rather then the Leafs in the finals due to a blown high-stick.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yes and those teams have been riddled with HOF'ers lol. The teams I have seen so far are the:

- 94 Rangers: Messier, Graves, Zubov, Leetch, Kovalev, Gartner, Amonte, Larmer, Richter.
- 95 + 00 + 03 Devils: Brodeur, Stevens, Guerin, Niedermayer, Broten, MacLean, Elias, Gomez, Rafalski, Nieuwendyk, Gionta
- 99 Stars: Modano, Hull, Nieuwendyk, Hatcher, Belfour, Zubov, Lehtinen
- 86 + 93 Habs: Roy, Chelios, Gainey, Robinson, Naslund, Claude Lemieux, Bobby Smith, Damphousse, Bellows, Muller

Why are you combining different teams like that?

Also, if we're going back in history don't forget the '38 Blackhawks, who are the actual AINEC answer to the question.

 

[Eisen]

They didn't move him, he signed with Ottawa as a UFA. All indications were the Canes wanted to keep him but he wanted to be sure he had a #1 job rather then platooning.

His post-season started off awful as well. He had the flu down the stretch in the regular season and was down 20lbs at the start of the playoffs. They didn't pull him til game 2 of the Montreal series, after 9 goals against on 34 shots (6 on 21 in game 1, 3 on 13 in game 2 in the first).

I didn't know that. Thanks.

 

[george14]

Why are you combining different teams like that?

Also, if we're going back in history don't forget the '38 Blackhawks, who are the actual AINEC answer to the question.

- 94 Rangers: Messier, Graves, Zubov, Leetch, Kovalev, Gartner, Amonte, Larmer, Richter
- 95 Devils: Brodeur, Stevens, Guerin, Niedermayer, Broten, MacLean, Holik, Lemieux
- 00 Devils: Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer, Holik, Lemieux, Elias, Gomez, Rafalski
- 03 Devils: Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer, Elias, Gomez, Rafalski, Nieuwendyk, Gionta
- 99 Stars: Modano, Hull, Nieuwendyk, Hatcher, Belfour, Zubov, Lehtinen
- 86 Habs: Roy, Chelios, Gainey, Robinson, Naslund, Claude Lemieux, Bobby Smith, Richer
- 93 Habs: Roy, LeClair, Savard, Claude Lemieux, Damphousse, Bellows, Muller

Is that better?

Also as for the 1938 Blackhawks, sure, since you want to be right you can be right. There were 8 teams in the league and the NHL was in its 20th season. In the modern era its the 2006 Hurricanes AINEC. Boo hoo.

 

[DaveG]

Chelios wasn't on the 93 Habs, he had been in Chicago for a while at that point.

 

[tarheelhockey]

- 94 Rangers: Messier, Graves, Zubov, Leetch, Kovalev, Gartner, Amonte, Larmer, Richter
- 95 Devils: Brodeur, Stevens, Guerin, Niedermayer, Broten, MacLean, Holik, Lemieux
- 00 Devils: Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer, Holik, Lemieux, Elias, Gomez, Rafalski
- 03 Devils: Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer, Elias, Gomez, Rafalski, Nieuwendyk, Gionta
- 99 Stars: Modano, Hull, Nieuwendyk, Hatcher, Belfour, Zubov, Lehtinen
- 86 Habs: Roy, Chelios, Gainey, Robinson, Naslund, Claude Lemieux, Bobby Smith, Richer
- 93 Habs: Roy, Chelios, Savard, Claude Lemieux, Damphousse, Bellows, Muller

Is that better?

No, because you clearly said "riddled with HOF'ers" and easily half the names you just listed are not HOF'ers.

I mean you've got Gionta and Bellows and Muller on that list for god's sake. What is that supposed to prove?

since you want to be right you can be right.

Yes, I prefer being right over being wrong.

 

[george14]

No, because you clearly said "riddled with HOF'ers" and easily half the names you just listed are not HOF'ers.

I mean you've got Gionta and Bellows and Muller on that list for god's sake. What is that supposed to prove?



Yes, I prefer being right over being wrong.

All of those teams have at least 3 HOF'ers (edit Habs 1993 had 2 HOF'ers). And a bunch of players who could easily get there. The Hurricanes have Staal and maybe Recchi someday. Actually...I'm not even sure Staal will get in no brainer. May take him forever. No one else will ever get there. Sure laugh at Gionta...pretty sure he has the Devils record for goals in a season at 48. What's the Hurricanes record for single season goals?

Look at those teams I listed and the guys who aren't in the HOF: Belfour, Leclair, Elias, Bellows, Smith, Guerin, Zubov, etc. These are guys with 400 goals, or 1000 points, 400 wins etc. My main point is these teams had top talent. The Canes did not. They had Eric Staal and some other good players like Brind'Amour. Along with aging vets like Recchi and Weight. Like I said, swimming against the current will make you tired. Most people are saying the Canes but you take personal offense. It's cool. Life is bigger than this.

 

[Jerzey Devil]

How can you go this far without mentioning the '95 Devils?

That team absolutely dominated everyone in those playoffs.

 

[tarheelhockey]

All of those teams have at least 3 HOF'ers (edit Habs 1993 had 2 HOF'ers). And a bunch of players who could easily get there. The Hurricanes have Staal and maybe Recchi someday. Actually...I'm not even sure Staal will get in no brainer. May take him forever. No one else will ever get there. Sure laugh at Gionta...pretty sure he has the Devils record for goals in a season at 48. What's the Hurricanes record for single season goals?

Look at those teams I listed and the guys who aren't in the HOF: Belfour, Leclair, Elias, Bellows, Smith, Guerin, Zubov, etc. These are guys with 400 goals, or 1000 points, 400 wins etc. My main point is these teams had top talent. The Canes did not. They had Eric Staal and some other good players like Brind'Amour. Along with aging vets like Recchi and Weight. Like I said, swimming against the current will make you tired. Most people are saying the Canes but you take personal offense. It's cool. Life is bigger than this.

Brian Bellows is just as much a HHOF'er as Ray Whitney.

Claude Lemieux is just as much a HHOF'er as Justin Williams.

Vincent Damphousse is just as much a HHOF'er as Doug Weight.

Bringing up Brian Gionta's 48 goal season makes as much sense as bringing up Eric Staal's 100 point season.


You are taking a bad argument, and making it worse by arguing it badly.

 

[SirPaste]

2017 Ottawa Senators

 

[YEM]

Still no answer to the question, which I will posit again:

If the 06 Hurricanes roster was the worst, then how come they managed a regular-season points total that was higher than 15 of the last 20 Cup winner?

it's been answered, you just don't want to accept the answer, which is no one's problem but yours:
fluke

 

[TheSituation]

Ok, let's rephrase. Hockey is a team game. So I'll just say that the '06 Canes had the least talented roster of teams that have won the Stanley Cup, post expansion.

 

[Roboturner913]

it's been answered, you just don't want to accept the answer, which is no one's problem but yours:
fluke

That's not an answer. An answer is something that you can back up with facts and/or statistics. You don't have an answer, you're just flailing about with excuses.

 

[Roboturner913]

Ok, let's rephrase. Hockey is a team game. So I'll just say that the '06 Canes had the least talented roster of teams that have won the Stanley Cup, post expansion.

If that is true then how come they had a regular-season point total higher than 8 of 10 Cup winners since the lockout? And 15 of the last 20?

And how come people keep ignoring the obviously very correct answer of the 1938 Blackhawks?

 

[Roboturner913]

All of those teams have at least 3 HOF'ers (edit Habs 1993 had 2 HOF'ers). And a bunch of players who could easily get there. The Hurricanes have Staal and maybe Recchi someday. Actually...I'm not even sure Staal will get in no brainer. May take him forever. No one else will ever get there. Sure laugh at Gionta...pretty sure he has the Devils record for goals in a season at 48. What's the Hurricanes record for single season goals?

Look at those teams I listed and the guys who aren't in the HOF: Belfour, Leclair, Elias, Bellows, Smith, Guerin, Zubov, etc. These are guys with 400 goals, or 1000 points, 400 wins etc. My main point is these teams had top talent. The Canes did not. They had Eric Staal and some other good players like Brind'Amour. Along with aging vets like Recchi and Weight. Like I said, swimming against the current will make you tired. Most people are saying the Canes but you take personal offense. It's cool. Life is bigger than this.

This is literally the worst argument I've ever seen. You're not even consistent to your own standards. You contradict yourself from one sentence to the next.

Since you can't seem to deal with any logical/factual arguments, just admit you never had any interest in debating the actual topic of the thread.

 

[Roboturner913]

That's funny. I would suggest that you are the one that doesn't understand the meaning.

Here's a link for you to check it out.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fundamentally


A team that retains 90% of its top players from one season to the next is fundamentally the same.

Fundamentally does not equal exactly the same.

They could have had 100% of the same players and still not been "fundamentally" the same. A human being is not exactly the same from one year to the next, and as we already noted, the team that next year had the most or among the most man-games lost to injury because they were all dealing with injuries and surgeries left over from the Cup win. So, no, "fundamentally" they were not the same, at all.

 

[george14]

Brian Bellows is just as much a HHOF'er as Ray Whitney.

Claude Lemieux is just as much a HHOF'er as Justin Williams.

Vincent Damphousse is just as much a HHOF'er as Doug Weight.

Bringing up Brian Gionta's 48 goal season makes as much sense as bringing up Eric Staal's 100 point season.


You are taking a bad argument, and making it worse by arguing it badly.

I will give you the comparison between Damphousse/Weight and Bellows/Whitney, although I do think Damphousse and Bellows were slightly better, just my opinion though. However, Claude Lemieux was definitely a superior player to Justin Williams and I am a Wings fan who hates Lemieux.

As for the Gionta/Staal comment, you are literally arguing against yourself. You just mocked me for bringing up Gionta, but you want to compare it to Staal's season? Talk about arguing poorly...

 

[george14]

This is literally the worst argument I've ever seen. You're not even consistent to your own standards. You contradict yourself from one sentence to the next.

Since you can't seem to deal with any logical/factual arguments, just admit you never had any interest in debating the actual topic of the thread.

What was contradictory? I am an Eric Staal fan. I simply said he is not a no-brainer HOF'er. I looked at his career numbers and compared to other guys, he will get in someday but not a 1st ballot guy. Calm down.

Those other teams had more HOF'ers and borderline guys, period.

 

[Roboturner913]

I iwll give you the comparison between Damphousse/Weight and Bellows/Whitney. Claude Lemieux was definitely a superior player to Justin Williams though and I am a Wings fan.

As for the Gionta/Staal comment, you are literally arguing against yourself. You just mocked me for bringing up Gionta, but you want to compare it to Staal's season? Talk about arguing poorly...

He mocked you because your argument is totally inconsistent from one post to the next.

 

[Roboturner913]

What was contradictory? I am an Eric Staal fan. I simply said he is not a no-brainer HOF'er. I looked at his career numbers and compared to other guys, he will get in someday but not a 1st ballot guy. Calm down.

Those other teams had more HOF'ers and borderline guys, period.

You're either trying to cloud the debate by filling it with nonsense, or you're [MOD] incapable of following the thread from one response to the next.

I couldn't give two craps about Eric Staal's HOF status. I'm the one arguing that number of HOFer's is a ridiculously stupid way to judge an entire 23-man roster, remember?