GWT: World Cup Final - Argentina v. France

[John Pedro]

Where in the world do I start awful

you don't think this isn't a very good side on paper?

Otamendi, de Paul, Acuna, Molina, Tagliafico, Paredes, Mac Allister are all run of the mill players

Messi, Julian and Enzo are three guys that you can call world class from Argentina squad, imo

Otamendi and Romero are borderline WC

as a team they gelled great, tho

 

[gary69]

It will ofc be painted as Messi v Mbappe as it should be,

When they face each other for the first time during the match, I'd like Mbappe to troll Messi by saying "Que miras, bobo".

Mbappe seems to have enough humour so he could actually say it, as in contrast Messi was just too serious after the Netherlands match to say it again.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

you don't think this isn't a very good side on paper?

Otamendi, de Paul, Acuna, Molina, Tagliafico, Paredes, Mac Allister are all run of the mill players

Messi, Julian and Enzo are three guys that you can call world class from Argentina squad, imo

Otamendi and Romero are borderline WC

as a team they gelled great, tho

They dont have the sexiest names but Emi is clearly WC as is Cuti and Lisandro is borderline. Otamendi is up there in age but has been a beast as good as any CB in this tournament. Molina is a good young player that will probably improve. MacAliister isn't a run of the mill player. He's good and will be sold for a good amount in the summer. RDP is an absolute horse.

You are also forgetting Lautaro who's WC and ADM old but on his day is a world beater. So yeah this side is good on paper.

 

[John Pedro]

They dont have the sexiest names but Emi is clearly WC as is Cuti and Lisandro is borderline. Otamendi is up there in age but has been a beast as good as any CB in this tournament. Molina is a good young player that will probably improve. MacAliister isn't a run of the mill player. He's good and will be sold for a good amount in the summer. RDP is an absolute horse.

You are also forgetting Lautaro who's WC and ADM old but on his day is a world beater. So yeah this side is good on paper.

Di Maria has barely played this season for many reasons. Molina hasn't been good for Atleti, de Paul is a bench warmer.

that's what I meant, lots of these guys aren't even key player for their clubs yet. Of course, they're talented but on paper they don't look like a team that is on the verge of winning a WC. Kudos to Scaloni, their spirit as a team and Messi still being the best player in the planet at 35y old.

when you look at France, all their guys are key starter for top clubs in Europe.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Di Maria has barely played this season for many reasons. Molina hasn't been good for Atleti, de Paul is a bench warmer.

that's what I meant, lots of these guys aren't even key player for their clubs yet. Of course, they're talented but on paper they don't look like a team that is on the verge of winning a WC. Kudos to Scaloni, their spirit as a team and Messi still being the best player in the planet at 35y old.

when you look at France, all their guys are key starter for top clubs in Europe.

That's because Simeone wouldnt know talent if it slapped him across the face. Both players were on their way to being key players on good teams. Both bought for good amount.

France has the most talent short of 3 teams its always gonna look bad. But save for England, France Portugal and Brazil... Argentina is producing as good as a clip as any other and their squad on paper shows that.

 

[Power Man]

just leaving this here because i cannot believe a starter for a WC finals team plays for Brighton:

And a Scottish player to boot

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Wow and here I was ready to root for you lot

I’d give up all “my” Stanley cups and the rights to @robertmac43 for the World Cup



What a horrific 11 lmaooo

What happened to Pavon? Completely forgot about him...

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I'd like to see Argentina win (not because I have anything in particular against France because I don't, but because I'd like to see Messi win one before he's done and France won last time) but I think France will win.

Either way I'm disappointed, because the World Cup is almost over and I've never been able to get into club football.

 

[bluesfan94]

They dont have the sexiest names but Emi is clearly WC as is Cuti and Lisandro is borderline. Otamendi is up there in age but has been a beast as good as any CB in this tournament. Molina is a good young player that will probably improve. MacAliister isn't a run of the mill player. He's good and will be sold for a good amount in the summer. RDP is an absolute horse.

You are also forgetting Lautaro who's WC and ADM old but on his day is a world beater. So yeah this side is good on paper.

We have a very different definition of world class.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

What happened to Pavon? Completely forgot about him...

Not sure wasn’t he in the mls for a few seasons.

We have a very different definition of world class.

Yeah yours consists of playing in red…. How’s Ben whites World Cup campaign?

 

[Luigi Habs]

I’d sell a kidney if it guaranteed an Argentina win. Hopefully history will make justice for Messi and Argentina. Winning the WC will not change the fact that Messi is the best player to ever play the game, but he’s on a mission right now, he truly wants it, and the team wants it for him as well.

France has a much better team, but I give the edge to Argentna purely because they collectively will put their own life on the line to get that win for Messi. Otamendi and De Paul are the 2 leaders on the pitch that will drag the team with them to kill give everything they have on the pitch. Big props to Scaloni who’s been able to build that team spirit around Messi.

Eager to know if ADM is fit to play and whether Scaloni will go with the same 4-4-2 or go 4-3-3

 

[bluesfan94]

Yeah yours consists of playing in red…. How’s Ben whites World Cup campaign?

Not true at all, but the bar is a little higher than RDP, Leno's backup, and Otaf***ingmendi

White never conceded a goal. Romero and Lisandro can't say the same.

 

[Live in the Now]

Man all you’re really saying is that your own team is full of morons for selling Martinez. We all already know how dumb that was. And almost everyone would rather have Romero than White.

The fact is that all those players play better with Messi than teams with better players play with someone else. Why is that? Well obviously when this happens it means some players are underrated. Same thing can be said for Morocco. Teams without great players (more than one) don’t make the WC Final ever. I really hate this kind of argument, teams just don’t win these games without a lot of quality.

 

[Savant]

Not true at all, but the bar is a little higher than RDP, Leno's backup, and Otaf***ingmendi

White never conceded a goal. Romero and Lisandro can't say the same.

The insecurity is strong in this post

 

[Live in the Now]

Also on the Molina subject, obviously I drafted him really high but go watch anything he did last season and tell me he’s not close to world class. The guy is an attacking machine playing for a super defensive manager.

Otamendi was in team of the year before too and won a ton. Not exactly trash.

 

[Incognito]

Best player versus best team. I feel like Messi is going to will Argentina to victory. If he channels his 2012 form for this one game, there's nothing France can do to stop him.

 

[S E P H]

I don't like seeing repeat winners, but Mbappe do not fail me now. As long as Messi loses, we at HFFutball are winners.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Before the tournament I said Argentina are the top favorites, European teams will be worse than usual and a non-Euro/SA team will make the semis. The last one already came true with Morocco in the SF, the first two hinge on Argentina winning on Sunday. If that happens, I'd be more clairvoyant than the flipping oracle of Delphi.

 

[Evilo]

Yes, that's the point you can't have it both ways.

Just because Messi has been great doesn't mean others haven't?

 

[bluesfan94]

Man all you’re really saying is that your own team is full of morons for selling Martinez. We all already know how dumb that was. And almost everyone would rather have Romero than White.

I'm not even comparing White to Romero. White's positional flexibility and ball playing ability has been phenomenal for Arsenal and there's a reason he and Saliba have absolutely shut down every team's left side, but compare White to this year's Otamendi. It's a joke we're having this discussion. If Romero and Lisandro are world class, so are Gabriel and Saliba, at the VERY least.

Yes, Martinez played well for half a season at Arsenal and has been great for Argentina and somewhere between good and very good for Villa. Ramsdale has been just as good and is better with his feet, which is what Arsenal's system needs. Regardless, Martinez isn't world class. He's not a top 5 goalkeeper and I guess if you squint maybe he's top 10? Pretty clearly behind Courtois, MAtS, Alisson, Donnarumma, Szczesny. And I don't see him as being significantly better, if at all, than Bounou, Oblak, Maignan, Ramsdale, Pope, De Gea, and I'm sure I'm missing a bunch because I've never had to think about who all is better than Emi.

He's a good premier league keeper. He's not world class.

Otamendi was in team of the year before too and won a ton. Not exactly trash.

There's a gap the size of a Boeing 747 between trash and world class. What Otamendi did in 2018 on City doesn't really feel relevant, and using team of the year when Ronaldo was on it last year is pretty goofy. Jan Vertonghen was on the team of the year that year and no one is calling him World Class these days. Are we calling Rudiger world class? Stones? Luke Shaw? Aubameyang? Soyuncu? Pogba? Aguero? All have been named to a PFA Team of the Year more recently than Otamendi

The fact is that all those players play better with Messi than teams with better players play with someone else. Why is that? Well obviously when this happens it means some players are underrated.

I don't know what exactly the first sentence means. Yes, players look better when they have the GOAT drawing defensive focus and playing perfect through balls. Shouldn't be that crazy of a theory. It doesn't mean anyone is underrated other than, somehow, Messi still.

Teams without great players (more than one) don’t make the WC Final ever.

Again, if being a great player is all it takes to be World Class, then there's a shitload of world class players. I mean, who on 2018 Croatia was truly world class other than Modric? Like I said, it could be a difference as to what is considered "world class" but other than Modric, Croatia had maybe one player who was top 10 at his position.

Also on the Molina subject, obviously I drafted him really high but go watch anything he did last season and tell me he’s not close to world class. The guy is an attacking machine playing for a super defensive manager.

Is he even a top 10 RB? Just off the top of my head, there's Walker, TAA, James, Hakimi, Cancelo who I think are clearly ahead of him and then others that you can discuss: Dalot, Tomiyasu, White, Porro, Mazraoui, Pavard, Castagne, Calabria, Cash

I really hate this kind of argument, teams just don’t win these games without a lot of quality.

I really do feel bad for the strawman you're beating up, but unfortunately it doesn't do that much.

 

[Live in the Now]

Honestly I don't know how I set you off you bad by posting these couple lines. And if you'll note I'm not the one setting up the strawman here. Find one single player in this entire thread that I said was world class. That's a line of your invention, not mine.

I would take Molina over everyone outside of the first group, and he played better in Italy than Tomiyasu ever did FWIW. Tomiyasu's a strong player but that's not my point. Molina already showed everyone exactly how he helps the team win an absolutely massive match.

As for Croatia in 2018, I feel like just putting my hands on my head and not even responding to this. Rakitic, Perisic, Manduzkic, Brozovic, Kovacic, are the exact kind of great players who play for WC Finalists. Underrated maybe, maybe not as great at the time of the final as they were in the past, maybe they're not great yet, but it's only a couple more games in their career they have to be great. That is the lesson here as it pertains to Otamendi. The guy is playing what he knows are the most important games of his life, you know that at one point he was a really stout defender, but we're treating the guy like he's playing this SF game like it's on Wednesday in MLS or something. It's not the same thing. And I'm most definitely not an Otamendi fan I don't remember the last time I said anything good about him. There's no passengers on these teams.

 

[Live in the Now]

As for the game, I feel like it’s a rare case of a final between two teams with a lot of players who win finals. Ultimately I think France has a lot more team speed, I think it’s going to be a really big deal. Do I think Alvarez or Messi are going to run through their whole team, well no so it’s different from Tuesdays game. There’s a reasonably large physical advantage so Argentina is going to have to be creative and when they get a free kick they need to do something good with it.

 

[bluesfan94]

Honestly I don't know how I set you off you bad by posting these couple lines. And if you'll note I'm not the one setting up the strawman here. Find one single player in this entire thread that I said was world class. That's a line of your invention, not mine.

Sorry, I assumed you were joining the conversation that was calling RDP and Otamendi world class.

As for Croatia in 2018, I feel like just putting my hands on my head and not even responding to this. Rakitic, Perisic, Manduzkic, Brozovic, Kovacic, are the exact kind of great players who play for WC Finalists.

This was never my argument. None of them were world class. That's my whole point. The insinuation that Emi, Romero, Martinez, Molina, Otamendi, and RDP are world class was all I was taking issue with.

Again, since I apparently have to be absurdly clear here, I am not saying those players are trash. I am not saying they haven't elevated their games. I am not saying they aren't good. I am not saying they were not once good. I am not saying anything other than mine definition of world class doesn't include any of those names.

 

[Live in the Now]

If Rakitic was never world class, and not world class at the time of that final, then by that definition Messi and Mbappe are the only world class players playing on Sunday. Which isn't the most unfair argument ever tbh. They're the only two who stand out way above the rest of the pack, but that's not my argument.

You don't need to be super clear, but sometimes you get really aggressive in trying to prove people wrong and post nonsense instead. I'll be clear myself. My opinion is that in a match with lots of quality, whoever has more world class players is absolutely irrelevant to the end result. Argentina has a couple, some of them start and some don’t, that’s because it’s not about that. The team with better tactics will win, the manager who utilizes his players better will win, manager who forms a complete functioning team will win. Argentina is at a physical disadvantage but that was the case in the Copa too and if anything it was a bigger disadvantage then.

 

[luiginb]

Nah, Rakitic was never world class. Speaking as someone who has seen him play +100 times.