WNBA players pushing for charter flights

[Albatros]

I don’t think malicious verbal attacks even without any physical component are something that a professional athlete should be required to endure, and in any case certainly not off the court.

 

[Hoverhand]

This is just WNBA trying to further propogate a martyrdom and victimhood agenda

Oh yeah sure buddy this goes all the way to the top.

 

[KevFu]

Aces are kind of the prototype for WNBA getting the attention they want/probably deserve.

Charter flights seem excessive in the grand scheme of things, but if a team can pull 8,000 a night and the costs aren't crazy, I guess it can work.

My issue is that few people seem to actually desire to understand how expensive that is and compare it to revenue, but we're in a unique portion of American history, so perhaps they can pull it off based on equity or something.

People should get the money and benefits they earn based on their work, and in our current system that's based on the people they employ them making a profit on what they do. There will be a breaking point unless the government steps in and forces something. Until then, get what you can get WNBA players, just realize the power you have is political and, assuming democracy and capitalism are still running the show in the future, is fleeting.

Get what you can.

Well, there's really two issues...

#1 - Of course they want charter flights because it's better for the players. But the Greiner thing made Phoenix say "We need to charter because of player safety."

#2 - There's a bunch of WNBA owners who can easily afford to do charter flights for their teams, and WANT do charter flights. The Phoenix Mercury definitely falls into that category, along with the Liberty and others.

But the WNBA has decreed that charters can only be used for back-to-back games, and the playoffs; (because if half the league has them and the other half don't, then those with charter flights are going to end up dominating the league because every free agent is going to sign with those six first and you'd have a competitive imbalance problem.

So it's really LESS about the money cost of chartering, but more about "the fight over chartering." The players/team stance is "either find a way for the whole league to charter, OR let us charter ourselves; but NOT LETTING US charter is a bigger problem.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

I was pretty shocked when I saw a video that stated the WNBA only generated $60 million in revenue. I would have thought at least double that number...although maybe with subsidies that number might be close to $120 million. I also saw another video that stated that the NBA provided the largest subsidies to the WNBA. It didn't provide the exact amount of subsidies, but I'm curious as to how much it would be.

I'm also curious as to the demographics of people attending games, specifically men/women. One of the many criticisms I hear about women's professional sports is that other women won't support the league to the degree needed to remain viable.

 

[KevFu]

I was pretty shocked when I saw a video that stated the WNBA only generated $60 million in revenue. I would have thought at least double that number..
....
support the league to the degree needed to remain viable.

The two things here is that (a) it's obviously not an apples to oranges comparison. and (b) it's not a linear correlation, but an exponential one.

The NBA brings in an estimated $10 billion.

BUT the WNBA has 40% of the teams the NBA has, selling 44% of the games the NBA has.

So if they were EQUAL in popularity, the WNBA would only bring in a MAXIMUM of $1.76 billion because of that difference in league size and schedule.

(It's actually far, far less because the NBA is getting 15% of total revenue from the PLAYOFFS, and the WNBA playoffs are 17-27 games, and the NBA is 64-109 games).


Now, how POPULAR is the NBA compared to the WNBA? If I said "30-to-1" I think that's optimistic. 50-to-1 is more likely.

But applying 30-to-1 on the $1.76 billion "equal popularity" estimation = $58 million. So by revenue, the NBA is 29.3 times more popular than the WNBA.

This is what's pushing expansion. The league is actually generating MORE revenue than should be expected given the popularity difference. Give more cities teams, increase the popularity... increase the playoff length... and see how big you can grow it.

Also, everyone really needs to STFU about the "remain viable" non-sense. It's Year 28 of the WNBA.

I swear this site just expects the imminent collapse of everything.

 

[ponder719]

I swear this site just expects the imminent collapse of everything.

The site stopped functioning when Ivan Provorov got traded. Can you blame us?

 

[KevFu]

The site stopped functioning when Ivan Provorov got traded. Can you blame us?

Your boys are a perfect example... You guys can be a total clowncar dumpster fire of a franchise for 50+ years... (and some would argue you have) and NOTHING is going to happen on the "franchise viability" front for the team. You'll remain viable and no owner is going to move the Flyers or Phillies out of Philadelphia.

 

[StreetHawk]

I was pretty shocked when I saw a video that stated the WNBA only generated $60 million in revenue. I would have thought at least double that number...although maybe with subsidies that number might be close to $120 million. I also saw another video that stated that the NBA provided the largest subsidies to the WNBA. It didn't provide the exact amount of subsidies, but I'm curious as to how much it would be.

I'm also curious as to the demographics of people attending games, specifically men/women. One of the many criticisms I hear about women's professional sports is that other women won't support the league to the degree needed to remain viable.

Doesn't have the same carry over effect from College. But, those are completely different. College is a smaller community, while in the pros, they are playing in big cities, where there is plenty to do and many ways to spend your entertainment dollars.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Doesn't have the same carry over effect from College. But, those are completely different. College is a smaller community, while in the pros, they are playing in big cities, where there is plenty to do and many ways to spend your entertainment dollars.

Yes, I understand there is more to do in big cities. With that said, it's important for the WNBA to be in as many big markets as possible to increase their visibility across the country and maximize tv revenue.

 

[AintLifeGrand]

Well, there's really two issues...

#1 - Of course they want charter flights because it's better for the players. But the Greiner thing made Phoenix say "We need to charter because of player safety."

#2 - There's a bunch of WNBA owners who can easily afford to do charter flights for their teams, and WANT do charter flights. The Phoenix Mercury definitely falls into that category, along with the Liberty and others.

But the WNBA has decreed that charters can only be used for back-to-back games, and the playoffs; (because if half the league has them and the other half don't, then those with charter flights are going to end up dominating the league because every free agent is going to sign with those six first and you'd have a competitive imbalance problem.

So it's really LESS about the money cost of chartering, but more about "the fight over chartering." The players/team stance is "either find a way for the whole league to charter, OR let us charter ourselves; but NOT LETTING US charter is a bigger problem.

Do you know much it costs to charter aircraft? Just curious. I'm actually in the industry, so I am familiar with the costs to charter aircraft and I'm a major proponent of private aviation, but I can't see owners wanting to spend another roughly $1M (conservative estimate) so their (mostly anonymous) players can big time it on a Boeing business jet or VIP Delta/Sun Country/ Etc 737.

Math:

Hourly Charter: $12,500 (optimistic estimate)

Repositioning: Lets say 1 hr for each round trip

Total Utilization: 20 Road Games, 40 flights. 1.5 hr avg trip length= $750,000

Lets say 20 Hours of repositioning: $250,000

Also lets not forget misc expenses: Ramp Fees, Crew Overnights, catering crew per diems, FET Tax: Easily at least another $50,000 (optimistic)

The average WNBA payroll is what $1.3M???

So Essentially, the private aviation request made by the players is akin to doubling the payroll

Where is the money going to come from???

Also assuming the average WNBA traveling contingent is 18 people and they are paying $700/ seat on Delta, current airline costs are roughly $252,000. So asking for private flights is not only ridiculous but dramatically costlier than the current situation

Well, there's really two issues...

#1 - Of course they want charter flights because it's better for the players. But the Greiner thing made Phoenix say "We need to charter because of player safety."

#2 - There's a bunch of WNBA owners who can easily afford to do charter flights for their teams, and WANT do charter flights. The Phoenix Mercury definitely falls into that category, along with the Liberty and others.

But the WNBA has decreed that charters can only be used for back-to-back games, and the playoffs; (because if half the league has them and the other half don't, then those with charter flights are going to end up dominating the league because every free agent is going to sign with those six first and you'd have a competitive imbalance problem.

So it's really LESS about the money cost of chartering, but more about "the fight over chartering." The players/team stance is "either find a way for the whole league to charter, OR let us charter ourselves; but NOT LETTING US charter is a bigger problem.

These players are mostly anonymous (outside of Griner) so the player safety angle is completely illegitimate

 

[KevFu]

Do you know much it costs to charter aircraft? Just curious. I'm actually in the industry, so I am familiar with the costs to charter aircraft and I'm a major proponent of private aviation, but I can't see owners wanting to spend another roughly $1M (conservative estimate) so their (mostly anonymous) players can big time it on a Boeing business jet or VIP Delta/Sun Country/ Etc 737.


The average WNBA payroll is what $1.3M???

So Essentially, the private aviation request made by the players is akin to doubling the payroll

Where is the money going to come from???

Also assuming the average WNBA traveling contingent is 18 people and they are paying $700/ seat on Delta, current airline costs are roughly $252,000. So asking for private flights is not only ridiculous but dramatically costlier than the current situation


These players are mostly anonymous (outside of Griner) so the player safety angle is completely illegitimate

I appreciate the behind the scenes details. I worked in college sports and we chartered select flights, which definitely required a significant fundraising effort to come up with the additional funds to cover it...

The travel party is probably bigger than 18, but I'm really not sure what a WNBA team has traveling. On the charter flights I was on, we had our 13-15 players, 5 coaches, two ops people, video guy, a few managers, broadcasters crew, beat writer(s), athletics trainer, media relations, social media, videographer... like 33-36 people. We chartered a 44-seat plane so we could invited a booster and their family if they cut the check to help us pay for it!

The commissioner says it would cost $20 million to charter. I don't know what the terms are for the NBA's deal with Delta as the Official Airline of the NBA. I'd have to assume that part of that partnership/sponsorship is a discount on charter flights. The NBA could cut a deal to include the WNBA.

The WNBA presented by Delta Airlines is a realistic way to get it done.

 

[AintLifeGrand]

I appreciate the behind the scenes details. I worked in college sports and we chartered select flights, which definitely required a significant fundraising effort to come up with the additional funds to cover it...

The travel party is probably bigger than 18, but I'm really not sure what a WNBA team has traveling. On the charter flights I was on, we had our 13-15 players, 5 coaches, two ops people, video guy, a few managers, broadcasters crew, beat writer(s), athletics trainer, media relations, social media, videographer... like 33-36 people. We chartered a 44-seat plane so we could invited a booster and their family if they cut the check to help us pay for it!

The commissioner says it would cost $20 million to charter. I don't know what the terms are for the NBA's deal with Delta as the Official Airline of the NBA. I'd have to assume that part of that partnership/sponsorship is a discount on charter flights. The NBA could cut a deal to include the WNBA.

The WNBA presented by Delta Airlines is a realistic way to get it done.

i’m not sure the naming rights have anywhere near $20m in value

Take for instance, Indycar which is a niche sport that averages around 1.3M viewers per year. NTT Data pays around $15M per year to be title sponsor.

Indycar is a more popular sport than WNBA. I wouls guess a title sponsorship of WNBA is worth maybe $5-7M per year which would cut the charter expenses but not sure enough for it to be a viable solution

 

[KevFu]

i’m not sure the naming rights have anywhere near $20m in value

Take for instance, Indycar which is a niche sport that averages around 1.3M viewers per year. NTT Data pays around $15M per year to be title sponsor.

Indycar is a more popular sport than WNBA. I wouls guess a title sponsorship of WNBA is worth maybe $5-7M per year which would cut the charter expenses but not sure enough for it to be a viable solution

Right, but it doesn't have to be at market value if it's part of an NBA/WNBA combo deal. THAT'S the benefit of the NBA being the "owner" of the WNBA and that's how the NBA should be flexing for the WNBA.

You know the whole debate/controversy/saga about women's soccer "Equal Pay" and the argument being that the Men's World Cup is just worth so much more? The men's World Cup prize is $600 million and $20 million for the Women? The whole thing is rooted in the fact that the value determinations were completely just MADE UP by FIFA: The TV rights they sell are actually BUNDLED, like 20 FIFA tournaments together for one price. Then FIFA says how much goes to whom. (And now FIFA is completely bungling the next round).

The NBA has the power to cut a deal with Delta (or whomever) for X dollars, or "We get this, you get that" and use it to cover chartering for the WNBA. That's the power they have. And that's the power they should use.

Colleges do this kind of thing all the time. All these deals are give and take. NTT Data isn't JUST presenting sponsor of IndyCar... there's a partnership there for, uh, all kinds of telemetry data stuff I'm sure. In cutting the deal with NTT Data for what they use in the pit boxes for racing, they're like "Screw it, throw in an extra $$$$ and be the presenting sponsor."

And that's what the NBA needs to do for the WNBA with an airline sponsor deal.

 

[daver]

I don’t think malicious verbal attacks even without any physical component are something that a professional athlete should be required to endure, and in any case certainly not off the court.

if there is something criminal that occurred, have that person charged. If you are going to be in the public eye, you should expect things like this.

The level of sympathy from the public is likely related to how you carry yourself in public. Keeping a low profile likely keeps you off the radar of attention-getters like the person from this story.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

if there is something criminal that occurred, have that person charged. If you are going to be in the public eye, you should expect things like this.

The level of sympathy from the public is likely related to how you carry yourself in public. Keeping a low profile likely keeps you off the radar of attention-getters like the person from this story.

This is where Im at too. You cant make yourself a lightning rod then turn around and cry about the attention it gets you

 

[Albatros]

if there is something criminal that occurred, have that person charged. If you are going to be in the public eye, you should expect things like this.

The level of sympathy from the public is likely related to how you carry yourself in public. Keeping a low profile likely keeps you off the radar of attention-getters like the person from this story.

Probably they find other targets to harass at first, yes. But such reign of terror by the worst elements in the society knows no limits, as it's more about usurping the power to dictate how others live their lives than about any particular issue. If a female basketball player stops having publicly stated opinions then eventually it will be about more private matters like their sexuality. And after that it'll be about women playing basketball in general. When they stop playing basketball it'll be about anything else outside the domestic sphere. That was the situation when women's basketball was first established in the late 19th century and every improvement since was fought for. Reactionary activists like that certain troll at the airport are more than ready to annul it all if given the power to do so.

 

[daver]

Probably they find other targets to harass at first, yes. But such reign of terror by the worst elements in the society knows no limits, as it's more about usurping the power to dictate how others live their lives than about any particular issue. If a female basketball player stops having publicly stated opinions then eventually it will be about more private matters like their sexuality. And after that it'll be about women playing basketball in general. When they stop playing basketball it'll be about anything else outside the domestic sphere. That was the situation when women's basketball was first established in the late 19th century and every improvement since was fought for. Reactionary activists like that certain troll at the airport are more than ready to annul it all if given the power to do so.

Sounds like an internet shithead trying to leverage Greiner's stature and non-basketball political opinion for their own self-interest.

And it sounds like the WNBA is leveraging the incident for their own self-interest.

Nothing to see here unless you choose to.

 

[eddygee]

I was pretty shocked when I saw a video that stated the WNBA only generated $60 million in revenue. I would have thought at least double that number...although maybe with subsidies that number might be close to $120 million. I also saw another video that stated that the NBA provided the largest subsidies to the WNBA. It didn't provide the exact amount of subsidies, but I'm curious as to how much it would be.

I'm also curious as to the demographics of people attending games, specifically men/women. One of the many criticisms I hear about women's professional sports is that other women won't support the league to the degree needed to remain viable.

A study was done maybe 5yrs ago and I saw the results posted on Twitter. Ironically the majority of the WNBA audience was 50+ black and white guys(likely basketball dads who like the sport and also watch NBA) I likened it to the middle aged guys you'd see with the sweat head band at your local YMCA or Golds gym hooping it up with the "kids".

The issue for the WNBA is these guys aren't really WNBA hardcore fans but just love basketball. They also love NFL so as soon as their sport starts they abandon WNBA. This isn't the group to go buy tickets and be STH's. They'll flip a ABC game on Sunday if a game is on and nothing else is on, and that's the problem for WNBA.

They don't have a loyal fanbase as much as ESPN promotes and Big UPS the league. Women largely don't watch the league neither do much of the broadcast media coveted 18-49yr olds(Note the 50+yr old guys earlier).

So because of these factors WNBA draws very little revenue. What it does get comes from social media campaigning and social reforms aimed at getting companies to contribute raise money for the league and oh money from the NBA. That's not enough long-term to run a league. At some point they're going to have to switch from that to being a regular league with young growing niche fans who can grow the league. Whether you see MLS a small hardcore niche of fans or NHL a larger hardcore niche of fans. WNBA has neither their Finals draw around 400-500k. They'll get more from a ESPN PR blitz Sunday afternoon ABC game than their actual Championship games.

 

[KevFu]

if there is something criminal that occurred, have that person charged. If you are going to be in the public eye, you should expect things like this.

The level of sympathy from the public is likely related to how you carry yourself in public. Keeping a low profile likely keeps you off the radar of attention-getters like the person from this story.

It's hard to keep a low profile when a certain cable news network (which only exists because the US repealed the law that banned "News as Propaganda) is talking about you every day to rile up their base.

 

[KevFu]

The issue for the WNBA is these guys aren't really WNBA hardcore fans but just love basketball. They also love NFL so as soon as their sport starts they abandon WNBA. This isn't the group to go buy tickets and be STH's. They'll flip a ABC game on Sunday if a game is on and nothing else is on, and that's the problem for WNBA.

They don't have a loyal fanbase as much as ESPN promotes and Big UPS the league. Women largely don't watch the league neither do much of the broadcast media coveted 18-49yr olds(Note the 50+yr old guys earlier).

Well, the WNBA ended before the NFL started until this season (they expanded the schedule this year).

And a huge reasons they don't have a loyal fan base is because (a) the league is really small and (b) the league is really "young," too.

You talk of the 50+ year old people... who were in their mid-to-late 20s when the WNBA started. No one has grown up with the WNBA just being a normal thing AND hit that age group yet.

No team in the WNBA is as old as the Florida Panthers and only four teams are as old as the Nashville Predators.

 

[eddygee]

Well, the WNBA ended before the NFL started until this season (they expanded the schedule this year).

And a huge reasons they don't have a loyal fan base is because (a) the league is really small and (b) the league is really "young," too.

You talk of the 50+ year old people... who were in their mid-to-late 20s when the WNBA started. No one has grown up with the WNBA just being a normal thing AND hit that age group yet.

No team in the WNBA is as old as the Florida Panthers and only four teams are as old as the Nashville Predators.

Yeah good points they've also moved their season around a bunch start times. I used to track numbers when Football season starts College/NFL those 50+ guys who would prop up early season ABC numbers abandon the league. You see this playoff time when the numbers are lower than early summer ABC games. It's really weird. Every league normally sees interest and viewership increase come playoff time. WNBA goes the opposite direction.

 

[KevFu]

Yeah good points they've also moved their season around a bunch start times. I used to track numbers when Football season starts College/NFL those 50+ guys who would prop up early season ABC numbers abandon the league. You see this playoff time when the numbers are lower than early summer ABC games. It's really weird. Every league normally sees interest and viewership increase come playoff time. WNBA goes the opposite direction.

Two thoughts:

I think they'd be better off going like April 10th to August 15th. They don't want to compete with the NBA playoffs... but let's be honest, they can't/don't.

They should start right after the NCAA Final Four, and end before college football starts. Because I guarantee you that the largest cross-over section of fans the WNBA has is COLLEGE BASKETBALL fans.


My other thought is that way too many people point to things like that about various leagues and sports as reasons things are bad/doomed/fail/can't grow. It is what it is. And for sure you include that in your thinking. But that doesn't mean you stop or that there's NO PLACE for the "newer" leagues or women's sports.

Like, everyone knows that NFL takes all the eyeballs and most sports fans don't pay attention to college basketball until after the Super. Bowl or even as late as MARCH. That's just the reality. But college basketball has been around forever, longer than the NBA even, and so no one CARES or says that college basketball doesn't produce enough revenue to survive.

But with newer sports leagues, like the WNBA, MLS, or women's soccer... (who had a choice and made the smart one to play in the summer), waaaay too many people act like "it can't work" because it's not as popular as the NBA or NFL.

There's room for all of it.

BTW, a ton of posts in this thread about the tiny sum of $60 million revenue the WNBA makes... anyone want to guess what the revenues for the G-League are?

 

[daver]

It's hard to keep a low profile when a certain cable news network (which only exists because the US repealed the law that banned "News as Propaganda) is talking about you every day to rile up their base.

She decided to make a political statement in a public forum. Whether you agree with the political statement or not, you are not keeping a low profile.

 

[KevFu]

She decided to make a political statement in a public forum. Whether you agree with the political statement or not, you are not keeping a low profile.

Did you see what the guard for the Dallas Wings did during the national anthem during the last game?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

BTW, a ton of posts in this thread about the tiny sum of $60 million revenue the WNBA makes... anyone want to guess what the revenues for the G-League are?

The G-League makes an estimated $200 million per year in revenue. They also have a set salary of $40k per player (2 way guys and call ups make more because of their NBA income).

The WNBA on a $60 million revenue has a league minimum salary of $62k, 55% more than the G-League's set salary.

No one is against the WNBA or any other women's league. What they are against is the players calling the economic realities of the leagues a product of sexism. The WNBA doesn't have charter flights because the league has never made a profit in 20+ years and can't afford it, not because they're women.