With Phaneuff gone, how does the hole get fixed?

[lifelonghockeyfan]

They also dumped 9 million in wasted cap space for 7 million of somewhat useful cap hit. Similar to how Columbus justified Clarkson in paying him to just play vs. Sitting on the IR.

Yes but in a year the Leafs won't have any of the Ottawa 3, and will have 7 million to spend for four years that was going to Phanuef. Phanuef will not be NHL calibre in two years.
None of the other players the Leafs gave Ottawa will play in the NHL, and at least the Leafs have hope with the Finn and the second rounder.

Clarkson when he's not injured has been a healthy scratch at times, which is tough to do when you're making 5.5 m on a last place team.

 

[budzz]

It's fun penciling in some of our young guns in the top 6 forward or top 4 D. Natural in a rebuild where we are gutting the basement and ripping out drywall and renovating the place from the wood out.

But make no mistake.

I can't see any of this management planning for next year handing out top spots to rookies without competition. Aside from the few veterans we may get in trades at the deadline, there is no way this management team goes into next year handing spots to anyone.

We will sign various veterans at various spots and competition will be created to make every one of our prospects EARN a spot. All part of the rebuild, the way Lou works, the way Babcock works. "Knock my socks off or pi*s off".

Likely Nylander and Marner make it, maybe one more rookie, after that we have about 5 forward spots to fill and 2-3 d. MAYBE 1-2 other prospects make it, but mostly they wil brew as they should.

I have some confidence that the braintrust now, knew everything posted in here months ago.....

 

[Durrr]

Honestly, part of me actually wonders if we went a step too far in trading Dion. I know it's been 2 games, but its painfully clear this team's leadership structure going forward is going to be ridiculously fragile, nevermind the glaring hole in the defense that is going to have to be covered by cheap vet signings and rookies from here on out.

In the context of a rebuild, getting Dion's contract off the books was the right move, but I think we definatly lost something going forward in terms of both leadership and as a position player, despite what Dion's haters will tell you. The real test is how the younger players will react to this change, lets see who of Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri or JVR steps up when given the chance.

 

[leafsfuture]

It's fun penciling in some of our young guns in the top 6 forward or top 4 D. Natural in a rebuild where we are gutting the basement and ripping out drywall and renovating the place from the wood out.

But make no mistake.

I can't see any of this management planning for next year handing out top spots to rookies without competition. Aside from the few veterans we may get in trades at the deadline, there is no way this management team goes into next year handing spots to anyone.

We will sign various veterans at various spots and competition will be created to make every one of our prospects EARN a spot. All part of the rebuild, the way Lou works, the way Babcock works. "Knock my socks off or pi*s off".

Likely Nylander and Marner make it, maybe one more rookie, after that we have about 5 forward spots to fill and 2-3 d. MAYBE 1-2 other prospects make it, but mostly they wil brew as they should.

I have some confidence that the braintrust now, knew everything posted in here months ago.....

Roster spots next year that are likely accounted for:

JVR, Bozak, Lupul, Kadri, Komarov, Winnik, Holland, Michalek

Thats 8 spots right there. Now Bozak, Komarov and JVR arent getting traded unless its overpayment (which I dont see teams doing). Lupul, Winnik and Michalek have little to no trade value. Holland is an obvious resign, and I personally want to see Kadri as part of the future.

That leaves 5 spots. We are obviously going to be signing more 1-year contracts with roster players. At least 2-3 more.

That really leaves 2-3 spots for prospects. If we draft Auston Matthews, one of those spots is gone. William Nylander (provided he even retains anything close to his current level) is probably taking another spot.

Now injuries will happen -- and with Michalek and Lupul, you will basically always have at least one of them on IR. So lets add another spot.

That leaves 1 spot for: Marner, Kapanen, Brown, Leivo, Soshnikov, Leipsic. The 93 with the most experience Leivo likely gets the nod

 

[sxvnert]

Rielly fixed it.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Rielly, Gardiner, Zaitsev and possibly Chychrun will fill the hole.

 

[WillNytheSwedishGuy]

Rielly, Gardiner, Zaitsev and possibly Chychrun will fill the hole.

Pretty limited experience amongst that group. 7 NHL seasons between the four of them.

 

[indigobuffalo]

First of all, this decision was based largely on timing. Shanahan/Lamoriello knew this rebuild is a 3-5 year thing. When you consider Phaneuf's value right now he's a big impact player. But right now is irrelevant. Next year is irrelevant. The year after probably also irrelevant. So is Phaneuf still worth it at $7M in 3+ years? Shanahan didn't want to find out.

Now, as for filling the gap, it's not really a one person thing. Rielly and Gardiner benefit by getting more minutes, more responsibility.

But there's another angle that's not yet getting the attention it deserves, and that's Nikita Zaitsev. He's young but already drawing comparisons to Lidstrom.

So there's a lot of promise there. Beyond that though, the Leafs have promising prospects as well, like McDermott, Harrington, Corrado, Percy, Valiev, and Lindgren.

And, there's potential for a FA signing when the timing is right.

Finally, if the Leafs don't win the Matthews lottery, there's a good chance they trade down from #2 or #3, and wind up with a pair of picks in the 6-9 range, where they could conceivably grab the duo of Chychrun and Juolevi.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Honestly, part of me actually wonders if we went a step too far in trading Dion. I know it's been 2 games, but its painfully clear this team's leadership structure going forward is going to be ridiculously fragile, nevermind the glaring hole in the defense that is going to have to be covered by cheap vet signings and rookies from here on out.

In the context of a rebuild, getting Dion's contract off the books was the right move, but I think we definatly lost something going forward in terms of both leadership and as a position player, despite what Dion's haters will tell you. The real test is how the younger players will react to this change, lets see who of Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri or JVR steps up when given the chance.

Leadership for this year maybe, but it's something they can address in the off-season. Especially if Stamkos is happening, that's all the leadership you could ever ask for.

 

[Durrr]

Leadership for this year maybe, but it's something they can address in the off-season. Especially if Stamkos is happening, that's all the leadership you could ever ask for.

That's not something you can address in the offseason, and our own history is a pretty damn good example to that. Trying to address leadership in the offseason is how you end up with David Clarkson and David Bolland on your top 6.

It's not just about leadership though, a quality D core is a very difficult thing to build, whether it's through development or signings/trade. I just hope we didn't risk turning ourselves into the future Oilers by gambling on young players to play above their years.

As I said, trading Dion was probably the right move but that doesn't mean it doesn't create a hole going forward on the team, and it's not something that is going to be addressed by signing Stamkos or whoever, it's going to be a very long process of in-organization development and a whole lot of luck.

 

[TMLegend]

It doesn't. Mind you, Phaneuf wasn't a #1D by any means but his minutes can't be replaced by anybody at the moment.

To be quite honest, I'm worried about the long-term defense of this club. There isn't a single player in the organization that projects as a #1D, not even Rielly, and the prospects are a whole lot of meh and dime a dozen players. Things would be looking on the up and up if they took Hanifin last year, with a good chance at a top 3 pick who are all forwards this year.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Roster spots next year that are likely accounted for:

JVR, Bozak, Lupul, Kadri, Komarov, Winnik, Holland, Michalek

Thats 8 spots right there. Now Bozak, Komarov and JVR arent getting traded unless its overpayment (which I dont see teams doing). Lupul, Winnik and Michalek have little to no trade value. Holland is an obvious resign, and I personally want to see Kadri as part of the future.

That leaves 5 spots. We are obviously going to be signing more 1-year contracts with roster players. At least 2-3 more.

That really leaves 2-3 spots for prospects. If we draft Auston Matthews, one of those spots is gone. William Nylander (provided he even retains anything close to his current level) is probably taking another spot.

Now injuries will happen -- and with Michalek and Lupul, you will basically always have at least one of them on IR. So lets add another spot.

That leaves 1 spot for: Marner, Kapanen, Brown, Leivo, Soshnikov, Leipsic. The 93 with the most experience Leivo likely gets the nod

Decent chance both Bozak and Winnik are gone.

Marner has nothing more to learn back in junior and can't go to the AHL. If anything sending him back to junior again could actually see him regress.

Leivo, Leipsic, Soshnikov, Brown we have to start graduating. They'll all have 2 years of pro experience. I see a competition where 2 spots are left for the 4 of them to fight over. But I also just as easily see any of these guys packaged up in a multi-piece for a higher end piece type deal.

Also potentially competing with the above are Johnson and Kapanen but both they are likely a bit further behind in their development.

 

[Durrr]

It doesn't. Mind you, Phaneuf wasn't a #1D by any means but his minutes can't be replaced by anybody at the moment.

To be quite honest, I'm worried about the long-term defense of this club. There isn't a single player in the organization that projects as a #1D, not even Rielly, and the prospects are a whole lot of meh and dime a dozen players. Things would be looking on the up and up if they took Hanifin last year, with a good chance at a top 3 pick who are all forwards this year.

How does Rielly not even project to be be a #1 D? He's already been playing as a #1 D all season and done a pretty damn decent job on such an awful team. Right now he easily projects to be a top pairing defender, it just depends where in that range he ends up, as a top #1 or a midranged 1b/2A. I'm worried about our defense longterm too but it's not because of Rielly, that's for sure.

You really cannot let that Hanifin thing go, can you?

 

[TMLegend]

How does Rielly not even project to be be a #1 D? He's already been playing as a #1 D all season and done a pretty damn decent job on such an awful team. I'm worried about our defense longterm too but it's not because of Rielly, that's for sure.

Just opinion, that's all. I see him more as offensive #2 than a true #1 guy. You disagree fine. But just because he's our "#1D" doesn't actually make him a #1, as evidenced by Phaneuf.

Regarding Hanifin, I think it's a decision that's gonna haunt this franchise for a long time.

 

[Durrr]

Just opinion, that's all. I see him more as offensive #2 than a true #1 guy. You disagree fine. But just because he's our "#1D" doesn't actually make him a #1, as evidenced by Phaneuf.

No I fully agree that playing as a #1 doesn't make you one, but the kid is 21 years old and already putting up 1D offensive numbers, while playing big minutes in all situations and against all competition.

I'm not saying he's currently a #1 defender, but saying he doesn't project to be one is crazy talk. Look at where he is at his age to many legit #1 defenders, and he comes out ahead against many of them at a similar point in development (Hedman, PK, OEL, Kieth, Letang, just to name a few). If he can continue to develop his defensive game while moving forward with his offensive game in stride, he'l be a top defender in this league.

As I said, Rielly is the least of our problems. I'm worried about the development curve that our current draftee's are going to take before we can develop and ice a fully solid D core, because outside of Rielly and Gardiner, who else is really close to being a top 4 D?

 

[Macallan18]

The way I see it, we haven't lost much. An earlier poster asked if Ottawa hadn't seen Phaneuf play, and I wondered whether they had. Gardiner covered up for his play so well, and it's easy to see Gardiner's effects in the stats of Phaneuf playing with and without Gards. Phaneuf's mobility seems to deteriorate year to year dramatically, to the point that he just stops skating when players blow by him. He hardly tries.
We have what we had before. An excellent offensive defenceman that hopefully can learn how to play better defense and really earn his mantle of number 1 pairing. An excellent play controlling defenceman who may surprise with his offense.
And a bunch of retreads and prospects.
Phaneuf was quickly falling into the retread category. In two years he may be bought out.
Huge trade for us. Feel sorry for Ottawa fans.

 

[Durrr]

The way I see it, we haven't lost much. An earlier poster asked if Ottawa hadn't seen Phaneuf play, and I wondered whether they had. Gardiner covered up for his play so well, and it's easy to see Gardiner's effects in the stats of Phaneuf playing with and without Gards. Phaneuf's mobility seems to deteriorate year to year dramatically, to the point that he just stops skating when players blow by him. He hardly tries.
We have what we had before. An excellent offensive defenceman that hopefully can learn how to play better defense and really earn his mantle of number 1 pairing. An excellent play controlling defenceman who may surprise with his offense.
And a bunch of retreads and prospects.
Phaneuf was quickly falling into the retread category. In two years he may be bought out.
Huge trade for us. Feel sorry for Ottawa fans.

Dion has been really good in both of his games thus far, I'd hold your sympathies. I can respect your opinion, but Dion is actually still a valuable player (but yeah 3-4 years from now it's going to be rough for them).

 

[Mess]

Nikita Zaitsev will be in Leafs top 4 D next year and Leaf Nation will be asking Dion who ?

 

[hockeyes]

Dion has been really good in both of his games thus far, I'd hold your sympathies. I can respect your opinion, but Dion is actually still a valuable player (but yeah 3-4 years from now it's going to be rough for them).

I'd hope Dion would work his ass off after being traded to a new team. We all know that won't last.

 

[Le Cobra]

Nikita Zaitsev will be in Leafs top 4 D next year and Leaf Nation will be asking Dion who ?

I could see this happening. Like a 93% chance of happening lol

 

[Al14]

Dion has been really good in both of his games thus far, I'd hold your sympathies. I can respect your opinion, but Dion is actually still a valuable player (but yeah 3-4 years from now it's going to be rough for them).

Yep, single handedly responsible for the Senaturds beating the Wings and Avs!

 

[seanlinden]

Rielly, Gardiner, Zaitsev and possibly Chychrun will fill the hole.

No, they really wont'.

There's only 2 NHL defencemen in that list. You need 4 in a top 4.

 

[Mess]

No, they really wont'.

There's only 2 NHL defencemen in that list. You need 4 in a top 4.

Zaitsev : http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=34773

 

[seanlinden]

Zaitsev : http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=34773

That's the profile of a KHL defenceman who the Leafs are rumoured to sign, that's likely to compete for a spot on the Leafs bottom pair with the likes of Percy, Harrington, Corrado & Cowen.

I'm fairly certain there are no NHL defencemen named Zaitsev, certainly none that a team can reasonably pencil into a top 4.

 

[Mess]

That's the profile of a KHL defenceman who the Leafs are rumoured to sign, that's likely to compete for a spot on the Leafs bottom pair with the likes of Percy, Harrington, Corrado & Cowen.

I'm fairly certain there are no NHL defencemen named Zaitsev, certainly none that a team can reasonably pencil into a top 4.

I guess that depends if you believe Leafs need a top 4 for next year to become competitive or if this can evolve over time to replace Dion.

Kapanen and the future 1st round pick are not replacing Kessel this year either immediately, which follows this same point.

Also removing Dion makes the current team weaker which improves the potential draft position and any scout will tell you a player like Chychrun projects as a future top pairing NHL dman.

So It all comes down to if you're talking Now or in the Future when answering this question.