Wings averaging 3.7 GF per game since Abby went down

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I'm soo happy we're paying for Abdelkader intangibles

They're paying him because they saw him as a power forward who's scored 20 goals before and they like his game enough to think he can do it again. To get a similarly impactful hockey player to Justin Abdelkader, you're spending at least the same amount of money.

Not intangibles. They think a 20g PWF for sticks up for his teammates physically and throws big hits is worth 4.25M

What's crazy is that everyone who hates Abby would jump for joy if we landed Brouwer or Belesky for similar money... they're basically all the same player. And the same guys who were lining up to offer David Clarkson 5M a year when he potted 30 that one time.

 

[Nauzhror]

What's crazy is that everyone who hates Abby would jump for joy if we landed Brouwer or Belesky for similar money... they're basically all the same player. And the same guys who were lining up to offer David Clarkson 5M a year when he potted 30 that one time.

Yeah, maybe try not to speak for everyone else and tell them what they'd be okay with.

Before trying to argue that something is absurd, you should probably actually wait for it to be defended before strawmanning it.

Belesky's contract is more palatable for two reasons, one much moreso than the other.

His contract is for five years at 3.8 million a year. Abdelkaders is 7 years at 4.286 million a year. So Abby is getting paid 12.78% more, but more importantly, Belesky's contract ends at age 33. Abby's ends at age 36. Brouwer's is 4.5 million a year, and ends at age 35.

Brouwer however is not "basically the same player".

.356 points/game for Belesky
.363 points/game for Abdelkader
.478 points/game for Brouwer

Being 32%, or 34% more productive than someone else doesn't make you the same as them.

Brouwer is the oldest of the three, so it could be argued he will drop off the soonest, but thus far that hasn't been the case. The past three years he's averaged .508 points per game - above his career average, this year he has .448 points per game, below his career average but still above Belesky/Abdelkader's averages, and much above their current years, as Abdelkader has .364 points/game thus far and Belesky has .208 points/game.

When Iam averaging close to as many points as two other players combined in a given year calling me the "same player" is frankly insulting. Belesky is not better than Abdelkader, Brouwer is, despite being older - thus making Abdelkader's contract even worse since Abdelkader's contract is significantly longer, and ends at an older age than Brouwer's or Belesky's.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yeah, maybe try not to speak for everyone else and tell them what they'd be okay with.

Before trying to argue that something is absurd, you should probably actually wait for it to be defended before strawmanning it.

Yeah... people said all of those things when Belesky was a FA, when Brouwer was a FA, and in all of the offseason "projected lines" when Clarkson signed his huge Toronto deal, a vast majority of those included David Clarkson as a top 6 F at contract values from 4.5-5.5. I'm not speaking for people. I'm drawing on the history I remember seeing at the time those players were free agents.

I'm arguing that paying Justin Abdelkader 4.25M ISN'T absurd when players of similar ilk get exactly that money. We're not paying him for intangibles, we are paying him because that's what you pay 20 g,40-50p capable power forwards who throw the body around.

It's market value for a player with his measureable, tangible skills.

 

[njx9]

Not intangibles. They think a 20g PWF for sticks up for his teammates physically and throws big hits is worth 4.25M

What's crazy is that everyone who hates Abby would jump for joy if we landed Brouwer or Belesky for similar money... they're basically all the same player. And the same guys who were lining up to offer David Clarkson 5M a year when he potted 30 that one time.

No one, literally no one, would jump for joy if the team signed Brouwer or Beleskey for 7 years. The cap hit is a non-issue, I doubt Abbie would even be a topic of conversation if he were a UFA next year.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Blah. Abby out of the lineup is a non-factor. Ask from yourself that are we a better team with both Miller and Ott in the lineup, or with Abdelkader and either Miller or Ott in the lineup.

We still are lacking scoring chances in big picture. Adding Abdelkader, AA and Helm would help a lot when benching Jurco & Miller & Ott.

I would rather have Miller or Ott in the lineup than Abby because is going to be playing top 6 minutes most likely.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I would assume it's a big difference with Mantha, that line has been one of the best in the league in corsi since Mantha was called up.

Yeah, it's no coincidence Z actually looks like a decent hockey player once again. Abby was somewhat useful on Pavel's line. At this point he adds zero to a scoring line, he's merely a drain on offensive output.

Enjoy that contract guys!!

 

[avssuc]

And that's the problem. Guys like Abdelkader (and Helm and Ericsson and Dekeyser, for that matter) are fine when they're slotted properly and paid accordingly. But when you overslot / overpay / overextend, it's bad resource management.

Justin Abdelkader is a great 3rd liner on a good team. Yet throughout his career, he's bounced mostly between the top two lines, and had the red carpet rolled out in contract negotiations. WHY?

People can appreciate what a player brings to the table and still say he isn't being paid or utilized prudently.

When a team can't market a championship contender or a bright future because it chooses to stay around .500...




This

Might focus here

Projecting stuff like this

Breeding a local flavor that makes some overlook the lacking areas because of

And if Helm stays out too long or gets hurt down the stretch, we might see a second helping of this:

[Age progressed video of Legwand waiting outside Joe Louis for April 9th, 2017]

 

[InGusWeTrust]

When a team can't market a championship contender or a bright future because it chooses to stay around .500...




This

Might focus here

Projecting stuff like this

Breeding a local flavor that makes some overlook the lacking areas because of

And if Helm stays out too long or gets hurt down the stretch, we might see a second helping of this:

[Age progressed video of Legwand waiting outside Joe Louis for April 9th, 2017]

You win the internet.

 

[Winger98]

I would rather have Miller or Ott in the lineup than Abby because is going to be playing top 6 minutes most likely.

yeah, this is where I would be, too. I mean, if I thought Blashill would be willing to put Gator on the fourth line and leave him there, yeah, I'd take him over Miller any day. But I doubt that happens. He comes back, regardless of how deserving or undeserving, he's likely going back on a scoring line in short order.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

yeah, this is where I would be, too. I mean, if I thought Blashill would be willing to put Gator on the fourth line and leave him there, yeah, I'd take him over Miller any day. But I doubt that happens. He comes back, regardless of how deserving or undeserving, he's likely going back on a scoring line in short order.

Agree.
Abdelkader, Glendenning, Sheahan = L4. Shut down. If he's used in roles and put in places to succeed with his tools then people can accept the term/contract a little. When he is used on a line to produce offense and its scarce.....this is when you have the backlash. I've never been a fan of Abdelkader. To me he was never anything better than a 3rd/4th line guy in the NHL. PWF is a dying player type really..gone are the days when you have that big guy like Shanahan, Iginla etc throwing bodies and scoring 30+ goals. Todays PWF is a grinder who has been able to string together a good season playing with a good center.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Yeah playing Gator on the 4th line is great and all, but you can't put a guy making 4.25 million a year for the next seven years on the 4th line.

As for the topic title, there just isn't enough data to come to any conclusions.

Although i do think Gator is worthless in the top six without talent carrying him.

 

[Winger98]

Yeah playing Gator on the 4th line is great and all, but you can't put a guy making 4.25 million a year for the next seven years on the 4th line.

As for the topic title, there just isn't enough data to come to any conclusions.

Although i do think Gator is worthless in the top six without talent carrying him.

We have to pay him regardless of where he's playing. If it's the fourth line, it's the fourth line.

 

[jkutswings]

Yeah... people said all of those things when Belesky was a FA, when Brouwer was a FA, and in all of the offseason "projected lines" when Clarkson signed his huge Toronto deal, a vast majority of those included David Clarkson as a top 6 F at contract values from 4.5-5.5. I'm not speaking for people. I'm drawing on the history I remember seeing at the time those players were free agents.

I'm arguing that paying Justin Abdelkader 4.25M ISN'T absurd when players of similar ilk get exactly that money. We're not paying him for intangibles, we are paying him because that's what you pay 20 g,40-50p capable power forwards who throw the body around.

It's market value for a player with his measureable, tangible skills.

1) I don't like the comparable contacts you cited, either.

2) When a role player in his prime years is getting carried by aging yet still talented veterans, signing him to a 7 year deal - when realistic expectations are that several of those 7 years will include inferior linemates going forward - isn't too smart.

Abdelkader never has been and never will be a lock for 20 goals and 40-50 points. He's a 15/35 guy that got a huge meal ticket based on 1-2 lucky years.

 

[Retire91]

They're paying him because they saw him as a power forward who's scored 20 goals before and they like his game enough to think he can do it again. To get a similarly impactful hockey player to Justin Abdelkader, you're spending at least the same amount of money.

Not intangibles. They think a 20g PWF for sticks up for his teammates physically and throws big hits is worth 4.25M

What's crazy is that everyone who hates Abby would jump for joy if we landed Brouwer or Belesky for similar money... they're basically all the same player. And the same guys who were lining up to offer David Clarkson 5M a year when he potted 30 that one time.

Exactly, Abby is an interchangeable player that they signed to a lifetime country club contract. He also isn't a legit top 6 player. He is a bottom 6 player eating up minutes because the coach thinks there are no better options. Let that sink in.

 

[Henkka]

When a team can't market a championship contender or a bright future because it chooses to stay around ... [/IMG]

You really nailed it. Post of the year.

 

[avssuc]

You really nailed it. Post of the year.

I see what you did there, nice work.

Seriously though, you honestly think this team is doing everything it can to build a cup team? It's hard for me to to look at all of the business-related aspects and say that. The only alternative is that the ownership/management is delusional. Since this is a less likely scenario, given the number of people involved in the decision-making process and past success, the most likely reality is that they are following a business model to stay black while riding the momentum of an incredible two decades.

I understand it's difficult to come to terms with what many of us now see, but it makes it much easier to watch a meddling product out there, I can assure you. Come on over, we saved you a seat brother!

 

[Henkka]

I see what you did there, nice work.

Seriously though, you honestly think this team is doing everything it can to build a cup team? It's hard for me to to look at all of the business-related aspects and say that. The only alternative is that the ownership/management is delusional. Since this is a less likely scenario, given the number of people involved in the decision-making process and past success, the most likely reality is that they are following a business model to stay black while riding the momentum of an incredible two decades.

I understand it's difficult to come to terms with what many of us now see, but it makes it much easier to watch a meddling product out there, I can assure you. Come on over, we saved you a seat brother!

Ken Holland has said that we are re-tooling (obviously, bringing kids in more than during Babcock-era) and we are not a TOP5 team anymore. Why should fans expect something else?

Still, I enjoy about Red Wings hockey even though I know these hard facts. Abdelkader contract doesn't bother me. Helm contract doesn't bother me. I love seeing Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, DeKeyser, Mrazek, kids coming in.

People have to get over about the thinking that we would be somewhat Cup team instantly if these Abdelkader and Helm contracts would disappear from the cap. Because we wouldn't be. There's no replacement players in UFA market who would make us that much BETTER with that open cap space. This is a pure fact.

We have to grow them by ourselves.

 

[avssuc]

Ken Holland has said that we are re-tooling (obviously, bringing kids in more than during Babcock-era) and we are not a TOP5 team anymore. Why should fans expect something else?

Still, I enjoy about Red Wings hockey even though I know these hard facts. Abdelkader contract doesn't bother me. Helm contract doesn't bother me. I love seeing Larkin, Mantha, Athanasiou, DeKeyser, Mrazek, kids coming in.

People have to get over about the thinking that we would be somewhat Cup team instantly if these Abdelkader and Helm contracts would disappear from the cap. Because we wouldn't be. There's no replacement players in UFA market who would make us that much BETTER with that open cap space. This is a pure fact.

We have to grow them by ourselves.

So do you think this method gives an organization the highest chance at a championship roster? If you don't, there's one obvious conclusion...

 

[Henkka]

So do you think this method gives an organization the highest chance at a championship roster? If you don't, there's one obvious conclusion...

It gives, at short-term. Biggest blaim in that Abdelkader-contract is the term. It could become a long-term problem, but time for that discussion isn't know, except for the doomsday sayers.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So do you think this method gives an organization the highest chance at a championship roster? If you don't, there's one obvious conclusion...

They want to win. They also want to limit their exposure to losing. It isn't champion or bottom of the league. This is truly what I hate about the way that the sports leagues are set up now.

Essentially, you're WORSE off by being a well-run organization that plans for the future than if you're hot ****ing garbage and burn your roster down.

You want to stop tanking? Flip the odds. The last team out gets the best odds at the top pick. Every team has a reason to try to win hockey games. If you're Edmonton and you're hot garbage? Too bad, get good. They'll never do this because it will kill interest in small markets that don't have good management and don't otherwise get good players than when they draft them.

And make it so that you either make the playoffs or you get a leg up in making them last year.

 

[Dotter]

So do you think this method gives an organization the highest chance at a championship roster? If you don't, there's one obvious conclusion...

I think what he's saying is it is a process. Wings are not re-tooling/re-building like the self gratifying fast food culture is teaching us. I don't think ownership wants to unnaturally tank like TML and Oilers. Maybe they want to slowly descend in a natural way until they draft a few stars to turn the club around, which might take 8+ years.

We don't get to sit in their meetings and hear the direction they are planning for. We get to sit outside in the dark and speculate what they're doing. It is, however, apparent they have no intentions of unnaturally tanking for the sake of drafting top 3.

You might not like it, but you also don't cash checks...

 

[DanZ]

This is an example of a flawed use of statistics

 

[jkutswings]

It gives, at short-term. Biggest blaim in that Abdelkader-contract is the term. It could become a long-term problem, but time for that discussion isn't know, except for the doomsday sayers.

But what exactly DO these collective moves give in the short-term? A chance to make the playoffs? Ok (although that chance seems to be shrinking every year). But if year after year, an early exit is the absolute ceiling for the franchise...what's the point? The Streak doesn't mean as much when you're extending it just to get your teeth kicked in yet again, and there's no indication that things will improve in the near future.

I'm not saying you have to tank, but EVENTUALLY, milking the middle of the bell curve just looks like a cash grab, and when the bottom finally does fall out, it's gonna be one heck of a mess to clean up.

 

[jkutswings]

I think what he's saying is it is a process. Wings are not re-tooling/re-building like the self gratifying fast food culture is teaching us. I don't think ownership wants to unnaturally tank like TML and Oilers. Maybe they want to slowly descend in a natural way until they draft a few stars to turn the club around, which might take 8+ years.

We don't get to sit in their meetings and hear the direction they are planning for. We get to sit outside in the dark and speculate what they're doing. It is, however, apparent they have no intentions of unnaturally tanking for the sake of drafting top 3.

You might not like it, but you also don't cash checks...

Understood, but why is there any reason to expect that this method will eventually lead to drafting any stars? Thus far, it hasn't landed even decent players for an entire facet of the roster, and it has yet to land a single star at any position.

It's not unlikely that it eventually results in a full rebuild with high draft picks anyway, and is viewed historically as a decade of wasted years from a competitive standpoint, for the sake of the financial bottom line. Great ownership there.

 

[Dotter]

Understood, but why is there any reason to expect that this method will eventually lead to drafting any stars? Thus far, it hasn't landed even decent players for an entire facet of the roster, and it has yet to land a single star at any position.

It's not unlikely that it eventually results in a full rebuild with high draft picks anyway, and is viewed historically as a decade of wasted years from a competitive standpoint, for the sake of the financial bottom line. Great ownership there.

I think DRWs are finding the upswing with drafting in the mid-round. Both Mantha and Larkin look promising thus far. Are they super stars, no. But they could be stars (depending on your definition of stars).

Then you have Svech and Cholo who could become solid. And who do they draft 2017, 18, 19 and 20? Seems Wings are doing much better drafting in the 1st round with Tyler Wright than they did with Jim Nill.