Wilson/Carlyle stat

[Purity*]

That's what is kind of a problem and why we have to give a few guys another year i.e Kadri.

Carlyle was horrific this year as a coach, weird decisions like playing mcclement way more minutes than holland(even though he was doing well) which made him overtired and hurt our PK.

Never benching Franson despite continuous bad play.(Why did we not give a chance to granberg?)
Playing Orr/Mclaren continuously despite way better talent available earlier in the season.

not to mention the "let's allow weak shots from the point and just collapse" system that he implements.

Agreed 100%. For anyone who followed the ice-tracker, Carlyle's minute distribution was BY FAR the dumbest in the league. Some things I came across some nights were absolutely apalling, a few examples:

Jay McClement lots of nights, especially later in the season, was getting more minutes than Kadri and Holland despite being a total offensive blackhole, EVEN WHEN WE WERE DOWN BY A GOAL. Where the **** is the logic in that? Randy actually did that!

Troy Bodie on a couple nights, was getting more minutes than Raymond/Lupul and even Kessel! Once again, I'm not making this up, Randy actually did this.

Cody Franson received the 3rd most ice-time of any defensemen on our team despite being HORRIFIC defensively, even his offense dried up in the second half of the season, yet he was still getting tons of minutes. Also the infamous Dion/Franson powerplay that NEVER got broken up despite being BRUTAL. Franson got WAY more power-play time than anyone else despite sucking at it majorly in the second half of the season, and Randy never held him accountable.

Last year too, Randy played Kostka/Holzer over Gardiner, when Gards was CLEARLY the better player. Dinosaur-head even started Kostka in game 1! And he had every intention of playing him over Gardiner before he broke his finger. Gardiner proceeded to come in and become our best player that series.


There is absolutely no question about it, some of Randy's decisions resemble borderline-insanity. We DEFINITELY need a new coach for next season. This guy has long long long over-stayed his welcome.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Agreed 100%. For anyone who followed the ice-tracker, Carlyle's minute distribution was BY FAR the dumbest in the league. Some things I came across some nights were absolutely apalling, a few examples:

Jay McClement lots of nights, especially later in the season, was getting more minutes than Kadri and Holland despite being a total offensive blackhole, EVEN WHEN WE WERE DOWN BY A GOAL. Where the **** is the logic in that? Randy actually did that!

Troy Bodie on a couple nights, was getting more minutes than Raymond/Lupul and even Kessel! Once again, I'm not making this up, Randy actually did this.

Cody Franson received the 3rd most ice-time of any defensemen on our team despite being HORRIFIC defensively, even his offense dried up in the second half of the season, yet he was still getting tons of minutes. Also the infamous Dion/Franson powerplay that NEVER got broken up despite being BRUTAL. Franson got WAY more power-play time than anyone else despite sucking at it majorly in the second half of the season, and Randy never held him accountable.

Last year too, Randy played Kostka/Holzer over Gardiner, when Gards was CLEARLY the better player. Dinosaur-head even started Kostka in game 1! And he had every intention of playing him over Gardiner before he broke his finger. Gardiner proceeded to come in and become our best player that series.


There is absolutely no question about it, some of Randy's decisions resemble borderline-insanity. We DEFINITELY need a new coach for next season. This guy has long long long over-stayed his welcome.

What is this great possession stat/shot differential play book and where can people like Randy Carlyle buy it?

Long overstayed his welcome? He's only been here for 1 1/2 seasons!

Too emotional.

 

[p.l.f.]

It's still Ron Wilson's team

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

It's still Ron Wilson's team

Someone should notify Randy, then.

What is this great possession stat/shot differential play book and where can people like Randy Carlyle buy it?

You'd figure that's something a Stanley Cup-Winning Coach (TM) like Randy would already know, eh?

 

[p.l.f.]

Alot of these players are suited for Ron Wilson's run and gun
For Randy they tried to add toughness and defense but it was only perifery players

 

[X66]

Explain to me why players that were excellent to very good puck possession players became terrible under Carlyle(Grabovski, Macarthur, Clarkson) and they all became terrible puck possession players under Carlyle. Why is it that Grabovski and MacArthur picked up their puck possession stat when they left this disgraceful 'system'.

His system is badly outdated, I find it impossible to believe people think otherwise...

Probably the same group of people that loved Mike Kostka playing 22 minutes a game on our top pairing last year, and the same dopes that liked the Orr/Mclaren combo on the 4th line...

His teams have been in the bottom half of puck possession for HALF A DECADE, with 2 different teams.

People, watch the games, understand the game.

 

[p.l.f.]

Give Randy the right kind of players and it works
But that's a 75% makeover

 

[X66]

Give Randy the right kind of players and it works
But that's a 75% makeover

That's inexcusable.

Give any coach the right players and they'll find a way to make it work...

He admitted he didn't act fast enough to change things up earlier in the season, because he's a stubborn coach that doesn't coach a team to it's strengths, but rather his own preference.

He turned Elite goaltending and Elite offence into this...

 

[p.l.f.]

I agree

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Explain to me why players that were excellent to very good puck possession players became terrible under Carlyle(Grabovski, Macarthur, Clarkson) and they all became terrible puck possession players under Carlyle. Why is it that Grabovski and MacArthur picked up their puck possession stat when they left this disgraceful 'system'.

His system is badly outdated, I find it impossible to believe people think otherwise...

Probably the same group of people that loved Mike Kostka playing 22 minutes a game on our top pairing last year, and the same dopes that liked the Orr/Mclaren combo on the 4th line...

His teams have been in the bottom half of puck possession for HALF A DECADE, with 2 different teams.

People, watch the games, understand the game.

If you understand the game then explain to me what a puck possession player is.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Anyway, the OP is wasting his time. Making himself look smarter than a former player/ Cup winning coach is funny to watch. Same old hockey forum stuff: I have the stats in front of me therefore I know what's really going on.

 

[ShaneFalco]

So tell us why Carlyle is a good coach then?
RC won a cup with a stacked Ducks team years ago. Therefore he's a great coach forever

 

[ForSpareParts*]

So tell us why Carlyle is a good coach then?
RC won a cup with a stacked Ducks team years ago. Therefore he's a great coach forever

How did he get that position? By just showing up for the interview?

He had to prove himself at every level.

 

[ShaneFalco]

How did he get that position? By just showing up for the interview?

He had to prove himself at every level.

So did Mike Keenan - where is he now?
Wilson was a good coach for the Sharks - wasn't here.
He may be a good coach, but he certainly wasn't here. It's just like players, if you're not performing, it doesn't matter what you've done in the past (see Phaneuf)

So someone has to be a NHL coach to criticize someone's methods/style/system!?
Close down the boards - none of us are qualified!

 

[ForSpareParts*]

So did Mike Keenan - where is he now?
Wilson was a good coach for the Sharks - wasn't here.
He may be a good coach, but he certainly wasn't here. It's just like players, if you're not performing, it doesn't matter what you've done in the past (see Phaneuf)

So someone has to be a NHL coach to criticize someone's methods/style/system!?
Close down the boards - none of us are qualified!

No. They just have to know possession stats. The game has changed on these dinosaurs.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

So did Mike Keenan - where is he now?
Wilson was a good coach for the Sharks - wasn't here.
He may be a good coach, but he certainly wasn't here. It's just like players, if you're not performing, it doesn't matter what you've done in the past (see Phaneuf)

So someone has to be a NHL coach to criticize someone's methods/style/system!?
Close down the boards - none of us are qualified!

What do you know about systems?

Did you read the play book?

 

[-DeMo-]

lmao, he had 6 points in 7 games averaging around 15-19 minutes a game. He was looking good

Then BAM, Carlyle drops his minutes next game(after a game where he scored a goal) to 8 minutes a game and bumps up mcclement to 15-20 minutes a game. Nonis get's pissed, and drops Holland to the AHL, our offence completely disappears from the bottom 6 Carlyle apologizes but essentially just gave more minutes to everyone instead of giving holland his minutes back.

What happens? Hollands minutes got completely taken away, and he averaged 8-12 minutes for the rest of the season, weird, because he was known to be a top 9 minute or bust kind of guy, and was scoring at a decent pace when given 2nd-3rd line C minutes, yet Carlyle chose to play him with 4th line minutes?

Horrible, horrible use of a prospect.

And no, all they had to do was call up granberg, they were using the 7 d system for a while, could've just sat franson and played him for a bit.

the game he scored the goal was against Buffalo, he was on the ice for 2 goals against, the first he couldn't contain his man in Girgenson who took the puck to the net and caused the first goal, and the 2nd was an odd man rush against where his line turned it over and John freaking Scott scored on them. it's nice that you think scoring a goal means you played well simple fact is he didn't. it was the 2nd game in a row his line got outscored the drop was warranted. as a center he's responsible for a lot of D zone coverage. he wasn't good. and when he was brought back up and given minutes around the time we went to Dallas/Colorado he was outplayed by Troy Bodie, and lost his spot again.

also you can only have 23 players on the roster you can't just sit a Dmen and call someone up you need a roster spot for him... so they would have had to put someone on waivers to bring him up. they didn't have a roster spot till the very end to do that.

 

[rdawg1234]

How did he get that position? By just showing up for the interview?

He had to prove himself at every level.

Not hard to prove yourself when your first year on the job is with a team that's stacked offensively, and has two Hall of famers pronger and Niedermyer backing your defence.

The same anaheim team that's near the top of the western conference now didnt even make the playoffs with him 2 seasons ago, with pretty much the same group of players.

Numerous coaches do well with stacked teams, its what you do with the lesser teams that really shows a great coach(i.e Babcock this year, Roy this year with a young team)

Carlyle's top 6 bottom 6 grinder style doesn't work anymore, the new NHL is about posession and using all 4 lines, only boston in the east truly uses this model. Toronto was essentially a 2 line team this whole season, the bottom 6 was a revolving door of enforcers and garbage.

 

[rdawg1234]

the game he scored the goal was against Buffalo, he was on the ice for 2 goals against, the first he couldn't contain his man in Girgenson who took the puck to the net and caused the first goal, and the 2nd was an odd man rush against where his line turned it over and John freaking Scott scored on them. it's nice that you think scoring a goal means you played well simple fact is he didn't. it was the 2nd game in a row his line got outscored the drop was warranted. as a center he's responsible for a lot of D zone coverage. he wasn't good. and when he was brought back up and given minutes around the time we went to Dallas/Colorado he was outplayed by Troy Bodie, and lost his spot again.

also you can only have 23 players on the roster you can't just sit a Dmen and call someone up you need a roster spot for him... so they would have had to put someone on waivers to bring him up. they didn't have a roster spot till the very end to do that.

So in order to grow a prospect who is struggling defensively but doing well offensively we should give him 4th line minutes even though he's a top 6 offensive centre?

Mcclement given 2nd-3rd line minutes killed this teams offense.

and yes we could've brought him up, do you not remember the numerous injuries we had? We played with 7 D multiple times instead of having an extra forward, coudl've just made that 7th D granberg and sat franson while one of our forwards was injured.

 

[leafs in five]

What do you know about systems?

Did you read the play book?

there are trends/formations/patterns that you can observe by watching the Leafs play. this post has some instructive images and descriptions: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2014/4/21/5631642/leafs-defensive-zone-play-post-mortem . it's clear the team was told to play this way in their own zone (forwards collapsed really low, supposedly limiting quality chances).

 

[-DeMo-]

Agreed 100%. For anyone who followed the ice-tracker, Carlyle's minute distribution was BY FAR the dumbest in the league. Some things I came across some nights were absolutely apalling, a few examples:

Jay McClement lots of nights, especially later in the season, was getting more minutes than Kadri and Holland despite being a total offensive blackhole, EVEN WHEN WE WERE DOWN BY A GOAL. Where the **** is the logic in that? Randy actually did that!

Troy Bodie on a couple nights, was getting more minutes than Raymond/Lupul and even Kessel! Once again, I'm not making this up, Randy actually did this.

Cody Franson received the 3rd most ice-time of any defensemen on our team despite being HORRIFIC defensively, even his offense dried up in the second half of the season, yet he was still getting tons of minutes. Also the infamous Dion/Franson powerplay that NEVER got broken up despite being BRUTAL. Franson got WAY more power-play time than anyone else despite sucking at it majorly in the second half of the season, and Randy never held him accountable.

Last year too, Randy played Kostka/Holzer over Gardiner, when Gards was CLEARLY the better player. Dinosaur-head even started Kostka in game 1! And he had every intention of playing him over Gardiner before he broke his finger. Gardiner proceeded to come in and become our best player that series.


There is absolutely no question about it, some of Randy's decisions resemble borderline-insanity. We DEFINITELY need a new coach for next season. This guy has long long long over-stayed his welcome.

in the last 22 games which is how many we had after the Olympic break McClement had more ice time then Kadri in 3 games, Boston, Calgary and St. Louis. we won the Boston and Calgary games, and were trying to protect a 2 goal lead heading into the third vs Boston, Calgary we were also protecting a lead, so I see no reason why McClement shouldn't get more ice time in those games, St. Louis we were getting horribly out played and the reason McClement probably got more ice time is because of the amount of Dzone faceoffs we were giving up.

Edit: also third period of the St. Louis game ice-time for McClement was 3:36 compared to Kadri at 5:49 so when we were making our push late Kadri got more ice-time then McClement.

in the same time frame Bodie played more then 15 minutes twice in 22 games not one did he play more then Kessel. only twice did Bodie play more then Raymond once vs Boston which we won, and 5 more seconds over Raymond vs St. Louis again we were getting badly outplayed. and I'm sure Bodie was better at matching up vs a big St. Louis team. and then again in no games did Bodie play more minutes then Lupul.

so I'm not sure where your getting your info from it's clearly wrong and you are making it up. as for Franson's ice-time, well the only one who deserved more was Gunner no one else deserved more time, Rielly was just as bad defensively, Gleason certainly shouldn't have any more ice time and neither should Ranger. so not sure who you think deserved more ice-time.

 

[mikeyz]

Congratulations, Randy, Dave, Scott and Greg. You've made Leafs fans long for the days of Ron Wilson.

Well, Wilson said he is ready to return as a coach in the NHL!!!

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/report-ron-wilson-interested-in-coaching-again/

You see where i am going with this?

LOL, JK.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Not hard to prove yourself when your first year on the job is with a team that's stacked offensively, and has two Hall of famers pronger and Niedermyer backing your defence.

The same anaheim team that's near the top of the western conference now didnt even make the playoffs with him 2 seasons ago, with pretty much the same group of players.

Numerous coaches do well with stacked teams, its what you do with the lesser teams that really shows a great coach(i.e Babcock this year, Roy this year with a young team)

Carlyle's top 6 bottom 6 grinder style doesn't work anymore, the new NHL is about posession and using all 4 lines, only boston in the east truly uses this model. Toronto was essentially a 2 line team this whole season, the bottom 6 was a revolving door of enforcers and garbage.

Hahaha. No the old nhl had nothing to do with possession. The old nhl had just 2 lines. The old nhl had two goalies playing on the ice at the same time too! The old nhl declined all the their power play opportunities too. Also in the old nhl you'd see the coach pulling the goalies in the FIRST two minutes of the game.

You have no idea what you're talking about. How can you say that the old nhl had nothing to do with possession?!

Ridiculous!

Anyway stop making RC look like he had no challenges: injuries, suspensions, salary cap restraints, etc. There was plenty wrong with this team. Look at who he had to work with. Is any team in the league going to win with Rielly and Gardiner as a defensive pairing. I don't care what system you have in place. Those two are not going to get it done. Some day they will, but for now no.

 

[rdawg1234]

Hahaha. No the old nhl had nothing to do with possession. The old nhl had just 2 lines. The old nhl had two goalies playing on the ice at the same time too! The old nhl declined all the their power play opportunities too. Also in the old nhl you'd see the coach pulling the goalies in the FIRST two minutes of the game.

You have no idea what you're talking about. How can you say that the old nhl had nothing to do with possession?!

Ridiculous!

Anyway stop making RC look like he had no challenges: injuries, suspensions, salary cap restraints, etc. There was plenty wrong with this team. Look at who he had to work with. Is any team in the league going to win with Rielly and Gardiner as a defensive pairing. I don't care what system you have in place. Those two are not
going to get it done. Some day they will, but for now no.

Youre really exaggerating what i'm saying here, I didnt say posession wasn't important in the old NHL, I'm saying it's a much more important focus for top end teams along with the ability to use all 4 lines.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/...says-teams-dont-defend-they-possess-the-puck/

"The game’s changed. They think there’s defending in today’s game. Nah, it’s how much you have the puck. Teams that play around in their own zone they they’re defending but they’re generally getting scored on or taking face-offs and they need a goalie to stand on his head if that’s the way they play,”

Right there is an example of sutter saying that posession is huge now.

Not to mention even corsi being mentioned by broadcasters this year, it's a new trend in the NHL.

the OLD NHL tended to have a top 6 bottom 6 model, in which it was top scorers on the top lines and mostly enforcers/defensive players on the bottom 6 lines. The game was also slower too, and defenders could do that clutch and grab thing around the blueline that gets called for interference now.

Carlyle tends to have archaic methods with his coaching, and if you give him a defensive only forward or a struggling but offensively good forward, he'll opt to play the defensive forward way more, and will destroy an offensive forwards minutes rather than possibly letting him play it out.

Not to mention there's really no reason to play an orr or Mclaren against teams that dont fight(Which is probably half the teams in the league now), it's just silly.

 

[-DeMo-]

So in order to grow a prospect who is struggling defensively but doing well offensively we should give him 4th line minutes even though he's a top 6 offensive centre?

Mcclement given 2nd-3rd line minutes killed this teams offense.

and yes we could've brought him up, do you not remember the numerous injuries we had? We played with 7 D multiple times instead of having an extra forward, coudl've just made that 7th D granberg and sat franson while one of our forwards was injured.

lol he's not a top 6 offensive forward... no idea where you even think that, the guys put up 10 points in 39 games... regardless of minutes top 6 offensive forwards don't put up so few offensive numbers. and a 6-7 game stretch proves nothing. and when you already have one of those types of players in Kadri you can't have another one.

and we played 7 Dmen because we couldn't bring up a forward when said players were hurt that's why we went with 7 D in the first place, so if we couldn't call up a Forwards to play how could we call up a Dmen?