Will we ever see a better player than Gretzky? Will we know it?

[TheGrifter]

Insert Crosby in the era where Gretzky racked up all of his point totals, Crosby demolishes them. End thread.

 

[Sentinel]

Insert Crosby in the era where Gretzky racked up all of his point totals, Crosby demolishes them. End thread.

Uhm... you may want to read the rest of this thread.

 

[livewell68]

Insert Crosby in the era where Gretzky racked up all of his point totals, Crosby demolishes them. End thread.

Considering Jagr who is 41 is playing near a PPG pace right now and who also happens to have a 123 Pts season (at age 34 mind you) during the same era that Crosby played in tells me that it's guys like Jagr, Gretzky and Lemieux that would be demolishing the competition right now if they were in their primes.

In an 82 game season it would be something like this;

1. Gretzky 140-180 Pts

2. Lemieux 140 -170 Pts

3. Jagr 120-150 Pts




4. Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin and everyone else would have 100-120 Pts.


It wouldn't really be that close.

The thing about players like Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe is that they transcend eras. Give them the same technological advancements in training and equipment and diet as the current players have and those 4 greats' skills would allow them to dominate pretty much now as well.

In terms of pure skill, Lemieux was a Malkin and Crosby hybrid.

Gretzky had Crosby, Thornton and Sedin's vision and playmaking ability combined to the power of 2 basically.

Bobby Orr was Lidstrom, Karlsson and Webber all encompassed into one.

Godie Howe would have been the best powerforward in the league by far; sort of a Cam Neely, Lindros and prime Bertuzzi all in one.

People don't want to put Jagr in the same conversation which is fine by me but Jagr in his prime had a bit if not all of Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby's skills all at once.

He could skate with the best of them, had one heck of a lethal wrist/snap shot and later developed a very accurate slap shot. His stickhandling was on the level of Dastyuk but more effective as he also had the size and strength to shield the puck. His passing skills were on par with Crosby's. The prime example of this is how often Jagr finished both top 3 in goals and assists in the same season. He also led the league in assists 3x while being a winger.

Crosby so far has proven himself to be an Yzerman and Sakic type player which is no insult to Crosby but that's the level he's played at.

 

[TheGrifter]

Considering Jagr who is 41 is playing near a PPG pace right now and who also happens to have a 123 Pts season (at age 34 mind you) during the same era that Crosby played in tells me that it's guys like Jagr, Gretzky and Lemieux that would be demolishing the competition right now if they were in their primes.

In an 82 game season it would be something like this;

1. Gretzky 140-180 Pts

2. Lemieux 140 -170 Pts

3. Jagr 120-150 Pts




4. Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin and everyone else would have 100-120 Pts.


It wouldn't really be that close.

Jagr having a decent season is not enough proof to support what you are suggesting,

I'd like to see Gretzky start his career in an era with so much parity in defensemen. For every Paul Coffey, there was 300 orange cones on skates.

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

I dont look at statistics, i just look at the games and see how they do and qiuet frankly, i don't see Crosby is nearly as dominante as Gretzky or as terrifying when entering offensive zone like Lemieux and Jagr was/is.

I even hold guys like Forsberg and Lindros higher than Crosby, why? Just watch them play and what they did when they were in prime, truly dominante forwards. I don't see that in Crosby even though he's racking up points.

 

[livewell68]

Jagr having a decent season is not enough proof to support what you are suggesting,

I'd like to see Gretzky start his career in an era with so much parity in defensemen. For every Paul Coffey, there was 300 orange cones on skates.

.... having a dominant season at age 34 though where he scored 123 Pts should be.

The thing about that version of Jagr is that he dominated games in different ways than he did during his prime in Pittsburgh.

In Pittsburgh he possessed the same puck protection skills but he mostly used to beat people with his speed, stickhandling and flash. The version we saw in New York relied more on his sheer strength and shooting ability. He was more of a powerforward type player. In fact he looked like even then he had lost a step compared to his 20's. Yet he managed to put forth one of the most dominant seasons in recent memory. Why is that you ask? Simply because when you are a generational talent, your skills transcend the era you play in. Players of that caliber find ways to dominate no matter the circumstance.

The following year, on one shoulder (he had serious shoulder surgery in the offseason) at age 34-35 mind you, Jagr still put up a respectable 96 Pts which was good for 8th in league scoring. That same season, at age 37, Sakic scored 100 Pts.

Selanne at age 39, and being half the player he was during his prime, still finished 8th in league scoring a few seasons ago.

Need more examples of this? I haven't even gotten into the Gretzky and Lemieux examples yet.

 

[livewell68]

Jagr having a decent season is not enough proof to support what you are suggesting,

I'd like to see Gretzky start his career in an era with so much parity in defensemen. For every Paul Coffey, there was 300 orange cones on skates.

In one post I discussed the Jagr element.

Now I will discuss the notion that the era that Gretzky played in was weak on defense.

Individually speaking, the era that Gretzky played in is arguably the best era for defensemen in league history.

Do the names Bourque, Leetch, Coffey, Potvin, Robinson, Chelios, Housley, MacInnis, Lidstrom (who wasn't even the best of this era), Stevens just to name a few ring any bells? I would say a good 10-15 defensemen of the top 20 all-time played at one point or another during Gretzky's time in the NHL. Gretzky's era is pretty much 1980-97. In that time span, Gretzky was always among the top 5 players every single season pretty much, even in the 90's. He did this against some of the greatest defensemen to ever put on skates and some of the greatest goalies to play.

Another thing one should not overlook is the fact that players now have much more protection from the refs when it comes to stick infractions. Playing in the 1980's and 1990's was tougher than now even if you want to say overall defensive schemes and goaltending is better nowadays. You had star players and powerforwards fighting their own fights back then, you had players playing through concussions and the players were just as strong and big then as they are now.

I would be interested to see what the average height and weight of a player was in the 80's, 90's 2000's and 2010's. I bet the difference from the early 80's to now is far less significant than what some believe.

 

[Sentinel]

Individually speaking, the era that Gretzky played in is arguably the best era for defensemen in league history.

Do the names Bourque, Leetch, Coffey, Potvin, Robinson, Chelios, Housley, MacInnis, Lidstrom (who wasn't even the best of this era), Stevens just to name a few ring any bells? I would say a good 10-15 defensemen of the top 20 all-time played at one point or another during Gretzky's time in the NHL. Gretzky's era is pretty much 1980-97. In that time span, Gretzky was always among the top 5 players every single season pretty much, even in the 90's. He did this against some of the greatest defensemen to ever put on skates and some of the greatest goalies to play.

A good summation, but you also have to account for the average level of defensemen. Gretzky himself said that the players today on average are better than in his day. I believe that, while the stars of the 80s and 90s were superior to the stars of today, the average level of players have grown. Yes, Gretzky faced some defensemen far better than even the best defensemen of today. But on average the level of D has grown.

That's not to say he wouldn't dominate completely and utterly, and no star of today even comes close. "Crosby is smoking in the corner nervously," as Russians say.

 

[shazariahl]

Jagr having a decent season is not enough proof to support what you are suggesting,

I'd like to see Gretzky start his career in an era with so much parity in defensemen. For every Paul Coffey, there was 300 orange cones on skates.

What about Chris Chelios playing until he was almost 50? Lidstrom playing at 40, Bourque at 40, Selanne still playing, etc? There are tons of players from the 80's and early 90's that have proven they can still compete in todays NHL, and a lot of them are defensemen. If Dmen are so much better now than they were in the 80's and 90's, how did Chelios play until he was 47 and how did guys like Bourque and Lidstrom end their careers with all-star selections or Norris trophies? Gretzky also played against guys like Roy, Brodeur, and Hasek and was still a good player even in the mid-late 90's when he was well past his prime and scoring levels were way down.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think a lot of us still want to see it other than just giving him credit for it before it happens. Kind of like how the Pens by all accounts should win the Cup this year or it'll be a disgrace. However, you can't hand them the Cup until they earn it.

SC wins are not a slam dunk for any team in 2013.

Sure Pitt is the favorite from the east but not really that much more than Boston.

In the west we have the Hawks, Ducks, and Red Wings.

Pittsburgh circa 92 was stacked and teams still were playing to win by scoring goals first.

It's kinda of ironic and perhaps the turning point that the Habs with a great goalie and very good defensive and 2 way forwards won the cup that year and the high flying teams of Wayne and Mario were no longer the way to win the SC.

As for Lemieux the difference between him and pretty much anyone not named Gretzky is that his 60-70 game seasons were better than what almost anyone else could even do - just once - in a season. Mario put up more points in a season in 60 games than anyone else but Wayne. When you still win the scoring race by a clear margin and miss 24 games it is hard to penalize the guy for that. I mean the guy had back to back seasons where he won the Art Ross with 64 and 60 games. Just for the heck of it he did it in an extremely competitive season (1993) where everyone seemed to have a career year. So I think it's a big difference when a guy has a partial season and still wins the Art Ross. It still counts as a great season.

Yes it's a great season and Mario was the most gifted offensive guy ever but one has to wonder how much more his teams could have won had he any interest in playing defense.

At some point the magic of offense and scoring 6 or 7 points in a game doesn't help in winning when a team like the NYI, look at that roster and they had Healey in net to boot, can beat them in a 7 game series.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Jagr having a decent season is not enough proof to support what you are suggesting,

I'd like to see Gretzky start his career in an era with so much parity in defensemen. For every Paul Coffey, there was 300 orange cones on skates.

I suggest you read the sticky at the top of this section.

 

[Hardyvan123]

In one post I discussed the Jagr element.

Now I will discuss the notion that the era that Gretzky played in was weak on defense.

Individually speaking, the era that Gretzky played in is arguably the best era for defensemen in league history.

First off 1980 was entirely different than 97.

The 80's was an offensive free fro all with everyone scoring way more than they do today.

Exhibit a is Denis Maruk with his 136 point season, one could go on and on.

The early 80's was still a mostly all Canadian league and that changes slightly through the 80's with a trickle of talent from Europe and a larger increase from the US.

It wasn't until the mid 90's that we got the full explosion of players from Europe and a simple look at the top 10 in goals assists and points over the 80's to 90's will stress just how much elite talent was coming from non Canadian countries.

People who actually watched hockey in the 80's and you can even go see the games on tape will see that defenses and goalies were in no way equipped like they are today to stop other teams from scoring.

Anyone arguing otherwise is simply dreaming in nostalgia or not actually looking at the proof.

When you have 2 of the best all time offensive talents also playing in the most explosive offensive time in the recent NHL then yes we are going to see huge points from those guys.

As the player pool changed, goalies and defensive systems became better and more coaching took over the game we saw the decline in extreme scoring and even the impact of guys like Mario and Wayne became less likely in their teams winning as the GA they gave up playing their style got a lot closer to the GF they were producing.

Do the names Bourque, Leetch, Coffey, Potvin, Robinson, Chelios, Housley, MacInnis, Lidstrom (who wasn't even the best of this era), Stevens just to name a few ring any bells? I would say a good 10-15 defensemen of the top 20 all-time played at one point or another during Gretzky's time in the NHL. Gretzky's era is pretty much 1980-97. In that time span, Gretzky was always among the top 5 players every single season pretty much, even in the 90's. He did this against some of the greatest defense men to ever put on skates and some of the greatest goalies to play.

3 of those Dmen you mention were from the states and 1 from Europe and the switch from the 80's to 90's increases this point even more.

Another thing one should not overlook is the fact that players now have much more protection from the refs when it comes to stick infractions. Playing in the 1980's and 1990's was tougher than now even if you want to say overall defensive schemes and goaltending is better nowadays. You had star players and powerforwards fighting their own fights back then, you had players playing through concussions and the players were just as strong and big then as they are now.

You also have significantly more collisions and hits today than back then, don cherry tapes aside, the game is ahrder to play physically today than it ever was. Once again a simple look at a random couple of games from the 2 time periods will show you this.

I would be interested to see what the average height and weight of a player was in the 80's, 90's 2000's and 2010's. I bet the difference from the early 80's to now is far less significant than what some believe.

Players have gotten bigger and heavier although I'm not sure what affect that has overall except perhaps in hitting and the physics behind it, ie. getting hit more often by heavier players at more speed probably has more physical impact

 

[Hardyvan123]

I suggest you read the sticky at the top of this section.

Does the sticky take away from his point in the overall differences of Dmen from the 80's to today?

The point of the matter is that when comparing two players from 2 different eras context needs to be taken into account or else Joe Malone blows Wayne and Mario out of the water with goal scoring right?

Or that a guy (George Hainsworth) getting shutouts in half his games has to be the best ever, one could go on... but you understand the point right even if the OP didn't state it in the best terms.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Does the sticky take away from his point in the overall differences of Dmen from the 80's to today?

The point of the matter is that when comparing two players from 2 different eras context needs to be taken into account or else Joe Malone blows Wayne and Mario out of the water with goal scoring right?

Or that a guy (George Hainsworth) getting shutouts in half his games has to be the best ever, one could go on... but you understand the point right even if the OP didn't state it in the best terms.

His point was that defensemen in the '80s were "orange cones on skates".....which is utter BS and clearly goes against the letter of that sticky.

 

[Hardyvan123]

You do realise of course that even with Mario missing the time he did in his first 7 years, he still played 81% of the his teams' games which is still almost 10% more games played than Sid has in his first 7 seasons. He also won the Calder, 2 Art Ross, 2 Pearson's, the Conn and a Hart during that time. At time I might add where he is competing against Wayne freakin Greztky himself.

You do realize that Sid has been by far the best Canadian player in the league since his rookie season right?

And that his trophy case would be even larger, if not for the elite talent from Europe that he has had to contend with, something that was less with both Wayne and Mario in their primes.

Dude, you're the one trying to elevate Crosby above the guys with full or almost full careers.
Crosby has around 75% of 8 seasons in atm and you want to put him up with the likes of Jagr because his first few seasons were better than his.
It's ridiculous. Crosby has to put in FULL seasons at this level to truly be in the same class as Jagr in his prime.

Once again all we can compare between Sid and Jagr is what they did up to equal points in their careers up until now and Sid is ahead. we know what Jagr did afterwards and it's a question if Sid can top that but you are being ridiculous in not comparing the apple with apple right in front of you.

Once again the double standard with Sid, he plays in what less than 10% the difference in games that Mario did in his first 8 years and Sid has to play full seasons while Mario didn't?

I'm less concerned with your opinion than your double standards.

You're damned right I'm not treating Sid and Mario the same! They are NOT the same!
Mario is one of the top 4 players to ever play the game. Sid has about 75% of 8 seasons in and he is not even ****ing remotely in Mario's class yet. He's not even in Jagr's ****ing class yet FFS!!!
Enough ******** already and give your head a shake with this crap!

Once again why the double standard in games played for Sid and Mario?

Either you treat all players the same, within context sure, or you start making special exceptions for the players you want and then your conclusions will be treated as such, incomplete and totally biased.

 

[Hardyvan123]

His point was that defensemen in the '80s were "orange cones on skates".....which is utter BS and clearly goes against the letter of that sticky.

That was the unfortunate end point although every knows that Dana Murzan was nicked named Pilon and was still a usefull guy in the context of the 80's.

The other part of his point was that Dmen have more parity and are better collectively at stopping offenses today than back in the 80's.

If that offends the sticky then it makes any comparison between players from different eras useless.

Surely context matters right?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

His point was that defensemen in the '80s were "orange cones on skates".....which is utter BS and clearly goes against the letter of that sticky.

I have to jump in and agree here. The sticky is there for a reason, and it's arguments/tangents like this that made/make it necessary.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

That was the unfortunate end point although every knows that Dana Murzan was nicked named Pilon and was still a usefull guy in the context of the 80's.

The other part of his point was that Dmen have more parity and are better collectively at stopping offenses today than back in the 80's.

If that offends the sticky then it makes any comparison between players from different eras useless.

Surely context matters right?

Defensive shell/trap systems and Michelin Man clones sucking up space in the net are collectively better at stopping offenses than back in the '80s. It doesn't make the players themselves any better.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Defensive shell/trap systems and Michelin Man clones sucking up space in the net are collectively better at stopping offenses than back in the '80s. It doesn't make the players themselves any better.

No but one can only look at your above statement and say that yes it's much harder for all players to score today than it was in the 80's.

the fact that it's ahrder to score is in part due to the defensive systems, better and bigger goalie equipment and techniques and yes more parity and skill on the back end.

Most observers can tell the disparity between the top and bottom teams in the NHL say from the 70's to today and there is no need to cry "sticky" about it either.

As for your above statement, it's ironic at best or just plain ignorant that you pull out the sticky argument and then degrade modern Dmen and goalies in such a way.

But then again some people want to have the double standard here right?

 

[Rhiessan71]

First off 1980 was entirely different than 97.

The 80's was an offensive free fro all with everyone scoring way more than they do today.

Exhibit a is Denis Maruk with his 136 point season, one could go on and on.

The early 80's was still a mostly all Canadian league and that changes slightly through the 80's with a trickle of talent from Europe and a larger increase from the US.

It wasn't until the mid 90's that we got the full explosion of players from Europe and a simple look at the top 10 in goals assists and points over the 80's to 90's will stress just how much elite talent was coming from non Canadian countries.

People who actually watched hockey in the 80's and you can even go see the games on tape will see that defenses and goalies were in no way equipped like they are today to stop other teams from scoring.

Anyone arguing otherwise is simply dreaming in nostalgia or not actually looking at the proof.

When you have 2 of the best all time offensive talents also playing in the most explosive offensive time in the recent NHL then yes we are going to see huge points from those guys.

As the player pool changed, goalies and defensive systems became better and more coaching took over the game we saw the decline in extreme scoring and even the impact of guys like Mario and Wayne became less likely in their teams winning as the GA they gave up playing their style got a lot closer to the GF they were producing.



3 of those Dmen you mention were from the states and 1 from Europe and the switch from the 80's to 90's increases this point even more.

Ummm...I do believe Salming ('73) was from Sweden, Langway ('78) was a Yank, as was Chelios ('84), Housley ('82) and Suter ('85).

And you know, it's funny because I could have sworn that the best D-men from the 80's were still the best D-men in the 90's.
In fact, the only non-80's D-man to crack the top 3 in the 90's was Leetch. No other 90's D-man else even got a sniff at the top 3 until the late 90's when the 80's guys were post 35 and starting to wind down.

Could you also remind me again when the explosion of Elite players from Europe (mainly Russian's and Czech actually) happened?
I'll help you out, it started in '89 and it was already pretty much complete by '92 so I'm really not sure where you're getting this mid-late 90's crap.
The League also only consisted of only 21-24 so the early-mid 90's was IMO, the highest talent per capita that the league had ever been.
Do you know how many names went on the Art Ross and the Norris from 89/90 till 96/97?
3 on the Art Ross and 4 on the Norris.
Lemieux 4, Gretzky 3, Jagr 1
Bourque 3, Chelios 2, Leetch 2, Coffey 1

Yeeeaahhhh...that about takes care of that heh

You also have significantly more collisions and hits today than back then, don cherry tapes aside, the game is ahrder to play physically today than it ever was. Once again a simple look at a random couple of games from the 2 time periods will show you this.

So what? Where the game is harder to play in one area today, it was harder in other area's back then.
You ask any player what they would prefer...having the collisions in today's game while wearing state of the art body armor or getting cross checked many times harder and many, many times more then they are allowed to be today with actual wood sticks I might add, while wearing paper thin shoulder pads.

Heh, I know what Bossy's answer would be

Players have gotten bigger and heavier although I'm not sure what affect that has overall except perhaps in hitting and the physics behind it, ie. getting hit more often by heavier players at more speed probably has more physical impact

They have also become drones that mostly only know how to dump, chase, cycle and backcheck.
If you want to think that this makes today's players better...well, that's your problem.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Most observers can tell the disparity between the top and bottom teams in the NHL say from the 70's to today and there is no need to cry "sticky" about it either.

Sure, because that doesn't say anything about the overall talent of the league just the way that talent is distributed. I trust you can see the difference. If you can't I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

As for your above statement, it's ironic at best or just plain ignorant that you pull out the sticky argument and then degrade modern Dmen and goalies in such a way.

Degrade them? Where? Apparently your definition of degrading is to say they aren't the bestest ever. My position has always been that the overall talent hasn't changed much if at all. Did I say today's defensemen were WORSE than those in the '80s? Nope, sure didn't. No better and no worse is something I haven't wavered from.

Saying that today's defensemen are no better and no worse than the '80s vintage is only degradation to someone who erroneously believes ever generation of player is exponentially superior to previous one.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Could you also remind me again when the explosion of Elite players from Europe (mainly Russian's and Czech actually) happened?
I'll help you out, it started in '89 and it was already pretty much complete by '92 so I'm really not sure where you're getting this mid-late 90's crap.

enough of this garbage you throw out with nothign to back it up, the numbers say otherwise.

In 85, sort of the middle of Waynes prime there were 28 NHL players from Sweden.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played


In 09, sort of the middle of the post lockout era there were 49

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played

An even more credible example is the emergence of a lot of non Canadian players on the top 20 lists the further we get away from 1980 to today.

The reality of the matter is that your math doesn't back up any of your claims while I have provided numbers and context.

The League also only consisted of only 21-24 so the early-mid 90's was IMO, the highest talent per capita that the league had ever been.
Do you know how many names went on the Art Ross and the Norris from 89/90 till 96/97?
3 on the Art Ross and 4 on the Norris.
Lemieux 4, Gretzky 3, Jagr 1
Bourque 3, Chelios 2, Leetch 2, Coffey 1

Yeeeaahhhh...that about takes care of that heh

so are you trying to say that the talent level in the NHL was higher in the early to mid 90's than say the early 80's?

If so you might just be right.

So what? Where the game is harder to play in one area today, it was harder in other area's back then.
You ask any player what they would prefer...having the collisions in today's game while wearing state of the art body armor or getting cross checked many times harder and many, many times more then they are allowed to be today with actual wood sticks I might add, while wearing paper thin shoulder pads.

Heh, I know what Bossy's answer would be

Give me a break the time and space afforded guys in the 80's to what it is post lockout is like the difference between an NHL game and a AHL/top Junior game.

They have also become drones that mostly only know how to dump, chase, cycle and backcheck.
If you want to think that this makes today's players better...well, that's your problem.

Drones?

Good thing we have that sticky to protect past generations right?

Players have to play their teams systems because their coaches demand it, the system any team plays has no bearing on the actual skill of any player.

If you can't acknowledge the skill level of todays player then your observations will be lacking.

there is simply no evidence whatsoever that there is any less talent, elite, per team or otherwise in the NHL today than in 1970,80,90 period.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Degrade them? Where? Apparently your definition of degrading is to say they aren't the bestest ever. My position has always been that the overall talent hasn't changed much if at all. Did I say today's defensemen were WORSE than those in the '80s? Nope, sure didn't. No better and no worse is something I haven't wavered from.

Saying that today's defensemen are no better and no worse than the '80s vintage is only degradation to someone who erroneously believes ever generation of player is exponentially superior to previous one.

Defensive shell/trap systems and Michelin Man clones sucking up space in the net are collectively better at stopping offenses than back in the '80s. It doesn't make the players themselves any better.

No i guess calling goalies Michelin Man clones is praise for there skill level right?

really give me a break, anyone doing that to a past player would be kicked out of here. At least be fair and honest to both sides.

while we are talking about being fair and honest look at the mostly Canadian NHL in the early 80's and tell me that all of those Dmen around today don't make up the difference in the 9 teams.

Just look at the differences in Swedish Dmen for starters then go through the other countries and tell us that the 80's Dmen and post lockout Dmen are at the same skill level, as a whole group or even per team basis?

Man with goalies it's a whole other story from a sprinkling of non Canadian starters to where half the star goalies in the NHL today come from non Canadian countries.

here are the results of all star voting for goalies in 09

# Player Team PTS 1st 2nd 3rd
1 Tim Thomas BOS 580 103 20 5 USA
2 Steve Mason CBJ 313 22 60 23
3 Roberto Luongo VAN 82 2 14 30
4 Niklas Backstrom MIN 60 0 14 18 Sweden
5 Evgeni Nabokov SJ 50 1 9 18 Russia
6 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 29 1 5 9 Finland
7 Cam Ward CAR 26 0 4 14
8 Martin Brodeur NJ 7 1 0 2
9 Henrik Lundqvist NYR 7 0 1 4 Sweden
10 Tomas Vokoun FLA 6 0 2 0 Czech
11 Chris Mason STL 5 1 0 0
12 Pekka Rinne NSH 3 0 0 3 Finland
13 Nikolai Khabibulin CHI 1 0 0 1 Russia
13 Ryan Miller BUF 1 0 0 1 US

While we are at it let's look at D for the same year (i took a random post lockout year in the middle, most years will have very similar results).

1 Mike Green WSH 594 107 18 5
2 Zdeno Chara BOS 566 97 26 3 Czech
3 Nicklas Lidstrom DET 471 49 72 10 sweden
4 Dan Boyle SJ 173 2 40 43
5 Shea Weber NSH 172 4 36 44
6 Andrei Markov MTL 106 1 23 32 Russia
7 Duncan Keith CHI 97 3 19 25
8 Brian Rafalski DET 39 1 5 19 US
9 Scott Niedermayer ANA 33 0 6 15
10 Mark Streit NYI 29 0 4 17 Swiss
11 Dennis Wideman BOS 26 0 5 11
12 Dion Phaneuf CGY 13 0 3 4
13 Sheldon Souray EDM 12 0 2 6
14 Kimmo Timonen PHI 10 0 1 7 Finland
15 Jay Bouwmeester FLA 7 0 0 7
16 Brian Campbell CHI 6 0 1 3
17 Drew Doughty LA 3 0 1 0
18 Chris Pronger ANA 3 0 0 3
19 Niklas Kronwall DET 2 0 0 2 Sweden
19 Willie Mitchell VAN 2 0 0 2
21 Rob Blake SJ 1 0 0 1
21 Robyn Regehr CGY 1 0 0 1


Give the 80's were like the recent NHL a break, it doesn't meet the reality of the situation.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

No i guess calling goalies Michelin Man clones is praise for there skill level right?

Hmmmmm, sounds like comment about equipment to me. Nothing in there saying goaltenders are WORSE than the '80s variety.

Grasp at straws much?

while we are talking about being fair and honest look at the mostly Canadian NHL in the early 80's and tell me that all of those Dmen around today don't make up the difference in the 9 teams.

Just look at the differences in Swedish Dmen for starters then go through the other countries and tell us that the 80's Dmen and post lockout Dmen are at the same skill level, as a whole group or even per team basis?

Man with goalies it's a whole other story from a sprinkling of non Canadian starters to where half the star goalies in the NHL today come from non Canadian countries.

here are the results of all star voting for goalies in 09

# Player Team PTS 1st 2nd 3rd
1 Tim Thomas BOS 580 103 20 5 USA
2 Steve Mason CBJ 313 22 60 23
3 Roberto Luongo VAN 82 2 14 30
4 Niklas Backstrom MIN 60 0 14 18 Sweden
5 Evgeni Nabokov SJ 50 1 9 18 Russia
6 Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 29 1 5 9 Finland
7 Cam Ward CAR 26 0 4 14
8 Martin Brodeur NJ 7 1 0 2
9 Henrik Lundqvist NYR 7 0 1 4 Sweden
10 Tomas Vokoun FLA 6 0 2 0 Czech
11 Chris Mason STL 5 1 0 0
12 Pekka Rinne NSH 3 0 0 3 Finland
13 Nikolai Khabibulin CHI 1 0 0 1 Russia
13 Ryan Miller BUF 1 0 0 1 US

While we are at it let's look at D for the same year (i took a random post lockout year in the middle, most years will have very similar results).

1 Mike Green WSH 594 107 18 5
2 Zdeno Chara BOS 566 97 26 3 Czech
3 Nicklas Lidstrom DET 471 49 72 10 sweden
4 Dan Boyle SJ 173 2 40 43
5 Shea Weber NSH 172 4 36 44
6 Andrei Markov MTL 106 1 23 32 Russia
7 Duncan Keith CHI 97 3 19 25
8 Brian Rafalski DET 39 1 5 19 US
9 Scott Niedermayer ANA 33 0 6 15
10 Mark Streit NYI 29 0 4 17 Swiss
11 Dennis Wideman BOS 26 0 5 11
12 Dion Phaneuf CGY 13 0 3 4
13 Sheldon Souray EDM 12 0 2 6
14 Kimmo Timonen PHI 10 0 1 7 Finland
15 Jay Bouwmeester FLA 7 0 0 7
16 Brian Campbell CHI 6 0 1 3
17 Drew Doughty LA 3 0 1 0
18 Chris Pronger ANA 3 0 0 3
19 Niklas Kronwall DET 2 0 0 2 Sweden
19 Willie Mitchell VAN 2 0 0 2
21 Rob Blake SJ 1 0 0 1
21 Robyn Regehr CGY 1 0 0 1

Give the 80's were like the recent NHL a break, it doesn't meet the reality of the situation.

I thought I made it clear I really don't CARE where the players come from. Bean counting may be your favorite past-time but it ain't mine.