Will we ever see a better player than Gretzky? Will we know it?

[VanIslander]

Crosby is no doubt a great player and will go down as one of the best but he is closer to Yzerman and Sakic right now than he is to Jagr for instance; Gretzky and Lemieux, forget about it.

Indeed.

Crosby has proven himself a marginal top-100 player of all time. I say this as a HfBoards veteran (I posted on day one of this board).

Of course, two or three postseasons of greatness from now he could be in the range of a Messier or Trottier, but don't hold your breath.

 

[livewell68]

Indeed.

Crosby has proven himself a marginal top-100 player of all time. I say this as a HfBoards veteran (I posted on day one of this board).

Of course, two or three postseasons of greatness from now he could be in the range of a Messier or Trottier, but don't hold your breath.

Just wondering, are you being sarcastic? If not then yes I agree with you.

He's on the verge of being a top 60 player right now and if he continues to dominate then yes he breaks the top 50 range but he hasn't done much to distance himself from Ovechkin, Malkin and Stamkos since coming into the league.

 

[VanIslander]

Just wondering, are you being sarcastic? If not then yes I agree with you.

He's on the verge of being a top 60 player right now and if he continues to dominate then yes he breaks the top 50 range but he hasn't done much to distance himself from Ovechkin, Malkin and Stamkos since coming into the league.

Yes,... I am serious. He is in the bottom-half of the top-100 players of all time, and that is NO slight to him!!

Here is where he went in the All-Time Draft of 2013:

ATD 2013 draft order:

1. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Bobby Orr, D
2. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Gordie Howe, RW
3. Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Wayne Gretzky, C
4. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Mario Lemieux, C
5. Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Doug Harvey, D
6. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Jean Beliveau, C
7. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Nicklas Lidstrom, D
8. DoMakc - HC Donbass - Stan Mikita, C
9. Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Raymond Bourque, D
10. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Denis Potvin, D
11. Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Eddie Shore, D
12. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Bobby Hull, LW
13. Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Maurice Richard, RW
14. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Bryan Trottier, C
15. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Red Kelly, D/C
16. tony d - Baltimore Blades - Bobby Clarke, C
17. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Jaromir Jagr, RW
18. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Howie Morenz C
19. Dwight - West Island Lions - Dominik Hasek, G
20. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Larry Robinson, D
21. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Scott Stevens, D
22. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Guy Lafleur, RW
23. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Viacheslav Fetisov, D
24. EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Mark Messier, C/LW
25. overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Patrick Roy, G
26. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Chris Chelios, D
27. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Jacques Plante, G
28. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Phil Esposito, C
29. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Ted Lindsay, LW
30. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Brad Park, D
31. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Terry Sawchuk, G
32. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Joe Sakic, C
33. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Pierre Pilote, D
34. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Milt Schmidt, C
35. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers Cyclone Taylor, C/D
36. Nalyd Psycho and Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Frank Nighbor, C/LW
37. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Paul Coffey, D
38. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Mike Bossy, RW
39. Stoneberg & Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Steve Yzerman, C
40. overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Al MacInnis, D
41. EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Bill Cook, RW
42. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Glenn Hall, G
43. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Chris Pronger, D
44. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Ken Dryden, G
45. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Newsy Lalonde, C
46. Dwight - West Island Lions - King Clancy, D
47. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Earl Seibert, D
48. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Sprague Cleghorn, D
49. tony d - Baltimore Blades - Tim Horton, D
50. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Frank Mahovlich, LW
51. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Borje Salming, D
52. Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Dit Clapper, D/RW
53. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Bill Gadsby, D
54. Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Syl Apps Sr, C
55. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Martin Brodeur, G
56. Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Frank Boucher, C
57. DoMakc - HC Donbass - Jari Kurri, RW
58. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Valeri Kharlamov, LW
59. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Brian Leetch, D
60. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Charlie Conacher, RW
61. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Valeri Vasiliev, D
62. Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Bernie Geoffrion, RW
63. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Mark Howe, D
64. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Henri Richard, C
65. Modo - Dawson City Nuggets - Dickie Moore, LW
66. VanIslander & Hedberg - Hershey Bears - Marcel Dionne, C
67. Velociraptor - Trail Smoke Eaters - Bill Quackenbush, D
68. Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Guy Lapointe, D
69. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Ted Kennedy, C
70. Bring Back Scuderi - Pittsburgh Athletic Club - Andy Bathgate, RW
71. papershoes & SchultzSquared - Kenora Thistles - Sergei Makarov, RW
72. DoMakc - HC Donbass - Serge Savard, D
73. Jafar - Montreal Canadiens - Boris Mikhailov, RW
74. Hobnobs - Seattle Eskimos - Peter Forsberg, C
75. Reds4Life - Detroit Red Wings - Sidney Crosby, C
76. MadArcand - Hartford Whalers - Sergei Fedorov, C
77. Murphy & gmm - Edmonton Mercurys - Alex Delvecchio, C/LW
78. jkrx & KingForsberg - Philadelphia Firebirds - Teemu Selanne, RW
79. monster_bertuzzi - Vancouver Millionares - Zdeno Chara, D
80. tony d - Baltimore Blades - Cy Denneny, LW
81. BraveCanadian - Guelph Platers - Vladislav Tretiak, G
82. vecens24 & Dreakmur - Mystery Alaskans - Aurel Joliat, LW
83. Dwight - West Island Lions - Joe Malone, C
84. ck26 - Dallas Black Hawks - Rod Langway, D
85. BubbaBoot - Boston Mules - Cam Neely, RW
86. nik jr. - University of Alaska Nanooks - Norm Ullman, C
87. Darth Yoda - Viking Maniacs - Max Bentley, C
88. EagleBelfour & DaveG - Les Nordiques de Québec - Jack Stewart, D
89. overpass & bluesfan94 - Ottawa Senators - Elmer Lach, C
90. markrander87 - Cincinnati Fireworks - Eddie Gerard, D/LW
91. Hawkey Town 18 - Chicago Shamrocks - Doug Gilmour, C
92. TheDevilMadeMe - New Jersey Swamp Devils - Sid Abel, C/LW
93. Nalyd Psycho and Mike Farkas - Minnesota Fighting Saints - Hooley Smith, C/RW
94. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Alexander Ovechkin, LW
95. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - Johnny Bucyk, LW
96. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Clint Benedict, G
97. Johnny Engine - Yekaterinburg Automobilist - Anatoli Firsov, LW
98. JFA87-66-99 - Pittsburgh Bankers - J.C Tremblay, D
99. BillyShoe1721 - Philadelphia Flyers - Scott Niedermayer, D
100. Stoneberg and Croskinnon - Halifax Mooseheads - Doug Bentley, LW/C

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/forumdisplay.php?f=181

 

[tazzy19]

People are acting like Crosby almost leading the NHL in points with his assists alone is akin to Gretzky leading the NHL in points with his assists alone. But they are forgetting one minor detail here: Crosby has a six assist lead on Martin St. Louis. In 1986, (one of the 4 times Gretzky won the scoring title with his assists alone), he had a 70 assist lead on 2nd place Mario Lemieux. The phrase, "It really isn't close" doesn't even come close to describing the difference between what Crosby is doing and what Gretzky did. It isn't even in the same universe.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Guys, ignore the troll.

EDIT: I'm not referring to anyone who's still an active poster (in case you think that I mean you).

 

[Rhiessan71]

A) It's only a 48 game season
Sid needs to do this in a FULL 82 game season.

B) There are no cross Conference games
Sid is only playing against half the league.


I like Sid and while the way he is playing is impressive, he still isn't even on Jagr's level yet, let alone Mario's or Gretzky's.
Jagr won a scoring title playing only 63 games a little over a decade ago.
Lemeiux won a scoring title in just 60 games exactly 20 years ago.
Gretzky had a whopping 153 points in 51 games to start the season 30 years ago.
Bobby Orr won a scoring title 40 years ago, as a D-man, by 14 points or 12% over the next closest non-teammate and outscored the next closest D-man by 59 points or 78%.

And honestly, as far as single seasons go, I can't even put Sid's this year above Yzerman's '89 or Howe's '53 or Richard's '45 even Hull's '91.

 

[Big Phil]

People are acting like Crosby almost leading the NHL in points with his assists alone is akin to Gretzky leading the NHL in points with his assists alone. But they are forgetting one minor detail here: Crosby has a six assist lead on Martin St. Louis. In 1986, (one of the 4 times Gretzky won the scoring title with his assists alone), he had a 70 assist lead on 2nd place Mario Lemieux. The phrase, "It really isn't close" doesn't even come close to describing the difference between what Crosby is doing and what Gretzky did. It isn't even in the same universe.

And that is the unique thing here. Gretzky dominated everything known to man. He led the NHL in goals 5 times and 3 of those times he had as many - or more assists - than the next best player had points. That is staggering to say the least. We are still waiting for Crosby to lead the NHL in assists in his 8th season. He hasn't done it yet. That's how crazy it is for us to compare him to Gretzky. Gretzky had 7, going on 8, assist titles in his pocket by this time. Look, I love the things Crosby does but you are being unfair to the kid here. He's dominant as far as what we have seen over the last 20 years, but from an all-time standpoint he's still a ways away and may never get there even taking into account the extra defensive/physical prescence he had over Gretzky. Gretzky just simply was a clutch scorer basically every night he played and that makes up for any disadvantages he has with his all around game.

I honestly think, you had to be there to believe what Gretzky accomplished. I think a lot of people who didn't witness it live tend to second guess it because the numbers are just too unbelievable but that's the way it was. I liken it to if someone saw a UFO. Wouldn't you question it unless you saw it yourself?

 

[TheNudge]

The big question is would Gretzky do as good in this era? I really doubts Wayne would be as good as Crosby in this Era since the goalies equipment have evolve a lot and talent wise. I just feel no one will ever beat the record of Wayne in this era. We just need to compare the GF and GA in both era and you can see a huge difference between both of them. Exemple;

1983-1984- Edmonton- 446 GF - 310 GA- Top Scorer Wayne Gretzky - 87 Goals
Vs
2011-2012- Pittsburgh- 273 GF -211 GA- Top scorer Stamkos - 60 Goals


1981-1982- Islander- 385GF - 250 GA Top Scorer 64 Goals - Mike Bossy
1981-1982-Edmonton- 417 GF - 295 GA Top scorer - Wayne Gretzky 92 G

Vs

2009-2010- 313 GF - 226 GA - Top Scorer Crosby and Stamkos 51 Goals


1983-1984- season lowest GF and GA - New Jersey - 231 GF - 350 GA
2011-2012 season lowest GF and GA- Minnesota - 177GF - 226 GA





So you can see that theirs a big difference between one era to another. The only player in the last era would dominate the era is Mario Lemieux(he had the size,the built, the hands, the speed and the vision to be the best in this era. But we will never know !!

 

[Hardyvan123]

There is a need to prop up Crosby, where he fails in comparison to all-time greats, there is a need to make his stats look better.

Crosby is no doubt a great player and will go down as one of the best but he is closer to Yzerman and Sakic right now than he is to Jagr for instance; Gretzky and Lemieux, forget about it.

That's outrageous, it simply gives some context to the equation.

Context seems to be lost to some by the remarks of the post.

It won't matter after next season anyways as he will be the top scorer in the time he has been in the league.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Yes,... I am serious. He is in the bottom-half of the top-100 players of all time, and that is NO slight to him!!

Here is where he went in the All-Time Draft of 2013:


http://hfboards.mandatory.com/forumdisplay.php?f=181

Well 75th and he is only 25 is pretty darn good don't you think?

That's even with his injuries, even the ATD guys can see a top 10 projection when it's all said and done I'm guessing right?

 

[Hardyvan123]

A) It's only a 48 game season
Sid needs to do this in a FULL 82 game season.

B) There are no cross Conference games
Sid is only playing against half the league.[/B]

All of this has been set by the NHL and is out of any players control.

To minimize the 13 season would be petty at worst and inconsistent at best.

If one one wants to go that route you better be consistent and look at unbalances schedules and shorter seasons for every player in history but my bet is that you are going to pick and choose your spots.

It also not like we have seen Sid score at this pace before right?

I like Sid and while the way he is playing is impressive, he still isn't even on Jagr's level yet, let alone Mario's or Gretzky's.
Jagr won a scoring title playing only 63 games a little over a decade ago.
Lemeiux won a scoring title in just 60 games exactly 20 years ago.
Gretzky had a whopping 153 points in 51 games to start the season 30 years ago.
Bobby Orr won a scoring title 40 years ago, as a D-man, by 14 points or 12% over the next closest non-teammate and outscored the next closest D-man by 59 points or 78%.

And honestly, as far as single seasons go, I can't even put Sid's this year above Yzerman's '89 or Howe's '53 or Richard's '45 even Hull's '91.

You didn't even get through the post and are quoting Richard's 50 game season in a diluted post WW2 NHL?

Did Brett Hull led the NHL in points in 91?

Yzerman's 89 and Howe in 53 might be your best arguments but really for a guy you like you sure go out of your way to knock him down, in order to defend a guy like Wayne who doesn't really need your help.

 

[Big Phil]

Well 75th and he is only 25 is pretty darn good don't you think?

That's even with his injuries, even the ATD guys can see a top 10 projection when it's all said and done I'm guessing right?

Projection is a funny word because so many of us thought that way with Lindros too.

Look, Sid is an incredible talent, the best of this era, but he needs to start seperating himself from this era the way other all-time greats have. None of this half season crap. I can see him as a top 10 player of all-time when all is said and done but in reality there is a drop off after the top 4 and even in the top 4 I would put Gretzky clearly ahead of the rest, no question. So while he should be a top 10 player, even the 10th best of all-time is a mile away from Gretzky.

Just to put things in context here. It isn't often that a player leads the NHL in goals, assists and points in the same year. These are the players that have done it:

Gretzky (5)
Howe (2)
Lemieux (2) (tied for the league lead in assists both times, would have had a third if not for cancer in 1993)
Esposito (1)
Morenz (1)

That's it. That's honestly all there is. You would think around Morenz's era prior to the forward pass in 1930 that there would be more of these feats considering assists were at such a low rate but Morenz did this in 1928 and no one did it until Howe in 1951 again. After Howe's second time in 1953 it wasn't done until Esposito in 1973. Then Gretzky all those times and then Lemieux.

So while we like to try to make these imaginary comparisons with Crosby who is a great player in his own right, the reality is he has led the NHL in points once and goals once in two different seasons. Never in assists. Maybe this year, but it is unlikely he will have more assists than 2nd place has points.

I hope this helps a lot of people that complain just how "easy" things were in (pick an era that isn't 2013). Because this kind of thing didn't happen at all. Only Howe did it in the original 6 era, only Esposito did it in the so-called watered down 1970s and only Gretzky and Lemieux have done it in the last 40 years. Why can't people realize that when these feats happen and then not happen again for 20 years that it is because the player is simply that good that did it and that makes them that much more special rather than "well, it was easier then".

Just for those that are counting it was a whopping 17 years ago that Lemieux last did this feat. 1996 wasn't that long ago and it can, and will, be done again but they don't happen like they're giving out cracker jacks either. Which should put what Gretzky did in an even better light.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Why can't people realize that when these feats happen and then not happen again for 20 years that it is because the player is simply that good that did it and that makes them that much more special rather than "well, it was easier then".

It's not a Mario and Wayne are simply that good rather than it was easier to score back then, both things can be true.

And they most certainly are.

There is a reason that even when you take out Wayne and Mario, there are more 50 goal scorers in the 80's than any other decade.

There is a reason that there is less than 5 50 goals scorers per year since the lockout and it's not a lack of talent.

Wayne is the best player in the history of the NHL and Mario was the most skilled and offensively talented one but too often people, not pointing this at you Phil but in general, come into the the History section and other sections and say that the talent or elite talent is down when there is simply no evidence to back this up other than scoring being down from the 80's.

The fact of the matter is that the NHL is different and is a fully integrated league and has both depth and numbers in quantity and quality elite talent form non traditional Canadian sources and this affects how many time a guy will win this or that or place in the top 5,10,20 of any scoring category.

It's pretty obvious that guys like Sid aren't only competing against other Canadian guys in the NHL anymore, like past players did, and the refusal by some to acknowledge this huge difference is simply astonishing at times.

 

[Rhiessan71]

All of this has been set by the NHL and is out of any players control.

To minimize the 13 season would be petty at worst and inconsistent at best.

If one one wants to go that route you better be consistent and look at unbalances schedules and shorter seasons for every player in history but my bet is that you are going to pick and choose your spots.

It also not like we have seen Sid score at this pace before right?

Oh yeah? Show me where Sid had a FULL 82 game season holding at this pace.
All I see is 41, 22 and currently 35.

You didn't even get through the post and are quoting Richard's 50 game season in a diluted post WW2 NHL?

Did Brett Hull led the NHL in points in 91?

Yzerman's 89 and Howe in 53 might be your best arguments but really for a guy you like you sure go out of your way to knock him down, in order to defend a guy like Wayne who doesn't really need your help.

I like Lidstrom too but if a player is being put up too high IMO, I'm going to say something.

And you're right, Wayne doesn't need defending. It's a good thing then that I'm not defending Wayne here.
If anything I'm defending Jagr because Sid shouldn't even be in the same sentence or maybe not even the same paragraph as Wayne at this point.
Sid has a shot at Jagr's level, he's not there yet but he's got a shot and that's a pretty god damned high level to be in reach of.
Anyone who takes this to be insulting to Sid is quite frankly an idiot!

 

[shazariahl]

The big question is would Gretzky do as good in this era? I really doubts Wayne would be as good as Crosby in this Era since the goalies equipment have evolve a lot and talent wise. I just feel no one will ever beat the record of Wayne in this era. We just need to compare the GF and GA in both era and you can see a huge difference between both of them. Exemple;

1983-1984- Edmonton- 446 GF - 310 GA- Top Scorer Wayne Gretzky - 87 Goals
Vs
2011-2012- Pittsburgh- 273 GF -211 GA- Top scorer Stamkos - 60 Goals


1981-1982- Islander- 385GF - 250 GA Top Scorer 64 Goals - Mike Bossy
1981-1982-Edmonton- 417 GF - 295 GA Top scorer - Wayne Gretzky 92 G

Vs

2009-2010- 313 GF - 226 GA - Top Scorer Crosby and Stamkos 51 Goals


1983-1984- season lowest GF and GA - New Jersey - 231 GF - 350 GA
2011-2012 season lowest GF and GA- Minnesota - 177GF - 226 GA





So you can see that theirs a big difference between one era to another. The only player in the last era would dominate the era is Mario Lemieux(he had the size,the built, the hands, the speed and the vision to be the best in this era. But we will never know !!

Size is less important in this era than it was in the 80's when you could hold, hook, grab, and obstruct players way more. As long as you didn't pull him down, or prevent an actual goal-scoring opportunity, it wasn't a penalty (and even then it sometimes wasn't). Now players get called just for getting in someone's way when they're going for a loose puck in the corner. So if Lemieux's greater size and strength didn't help him surpass Gretzky when size and strength actually mattered, it wouldn't now. If anything, Gretzky's unpredictability and unsurpassed playmaking would still make him the best.

And honestly, to say Gretzky wouldn't be as good as Lemieux in this era is one thing, to say he wouldn't be as good as Crosby? You can complain that goal scoring is way lower now, but Gretzky was nearly doubling today's stars in point totals. And scoring isn't 50% lower. No one here thinks Gretzky would score 215 in today's league either - we just think he'd be a lot better than the current crop of stars.

 

[Big Phil]

It's not a Mario and Wayne are simply that good rather than it was easier to score back then, both things can be true.

And they most certainly are.

There is a reason that even when you take out Wayne and Mario, there are more 50 goal scorers in the 80's than any other decade.

There is a reason that there is less than 5 50 goals scorers per year since the lockout and it's not a lack of talent.

Wayne is the best player in the history of the NHL and Mario was the most skilled and offensively talented one but too often people, not pointing this at you Phil but in general, come into the the History section and other sections and say that the talent or elite talent is down when there is simply no evidence to back this up other than scoring being down from the 80's.

The fact of the matter is that the NHL is different and is a fully integrated league and has both depth and numbers in quantity and quality elite talent form non traditional Canadian sources and this affects how many time a guy will win this or that or place in the top 5,10,20 of any scoring category.

It's pretty obvious that guys like Sid aren't only competing against other Canadian guys in the NHL anymore, like past players did, and the refusal by some to acknowledge this huge difference is simply astonishing at times.

I see what you are saying, I am not a huge fan though of degrading other eras just because certain countries at that time weren't good enough/or allowed to come over to the NHL. I prefer looking at the actual collection of players around that particular season. Example, who had an off year, who was injured. Which seasons were years where all the stars were healthy and in their prime? Stuff like that is more important to me. I find 2011 to be one of those seasons where you can say that several important stars missed time or had off years which opened the door for someone like Corey Perry to win the Hart. 2002 may be another one of those years. 1978 perhaps. It was still the NHL and I'll never say things were "easy" but some years had tougher competition than others and in my opinion. That's what I look at the most. For example you can't tell me years like 1975, 1976, 1982, 1988, 1996 or even 2007 aren't years where a lot of stars were healthy and that it made it that much harder to seperate yourself. That's what I find more important. Who was the 2nd leading scorer? Was he healthy? Were a lot of the stars healthy. For whatever reason that gets ignored too often. If we are going to take anything away from a player in a particular season I would rather look at his competition than where everyone was born.

I think I can counter what you are saying about the whole idea of leading the NHL in goals, assists and points in a season though. The reason that it happened so often in the 1980s wasn't so much the higher scoring era but the people doing it. In the 1980s up until 1996 only Gretzky and Lemieux did it. Take them away and by my count it happens only once since 1973 and that is Yzerman in 1989. So you see, it really only happens with a special player in a special season. Look at the distribution of this feat: 1928, 1951, 1953, 1973, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1989, 1996. That's pretty spread out don't you think? Lots of greats have come and gone regardless of era and they didn't do it. Can we really say there was an easier time to do this feat or is it better to just look at WHO did it in the 1980s? It isn't like someone was taking Gretzky's place if he was gone.

Just to show you that it is more a product of the player who does it than the era I am going to show you the times since 1996 that it was the closest to happening.

1997 - Lemieux needed 2-3 more goals to capture this triple feat
1999 - Jagr needed at least 3 goals to lead the NHL in goals
2001 - Jagr needed at least 7 goals for this feat
2004 - St. Louis had 38 goals, led the NHL in assists and points and was 3 goals shy of the lead

We're not talking about an impossible acheivement here. Martin St. Louis nearly did it. It can happen even in 2013 if someone had a great enough season. It was "that" close to happening 9 years ago in the dead puck era. Can you not acknowledge that this type of feat happens because of the player and not the era?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Oh yeah? Show me where Sid had a FULL 82 game season holding at this pace.
All I see is 41, 22 and currently 35.

As long as you are consistent but you aren't.

Did you know that Mario played over 70 games exactly 6 times, including one time at 70 games in his career?

Everyone knows that Sid has been injured and it's also plain to see how well he has produced when he has been playing with those superstar wingers of his.

But context only matters for certain players right?

I like Lidstrom too but if a player is being put up too high IMO, I'm going to say something.

Why does everything come back to this for you?

The thread is about Wayne and possible players like him, I put Dmen and goalies in separate categories as it's pretty much impossible to judge fairly across positions.

But since you mentioned it he did dominate his position very Wayne like in the 1st decade of the 2000's

And you're right, Wayne doesn't need defending. It's a good thing then that I'm not defending Wayne here.
If anything I'm defending Jagr because Sid shouldn't even be in the same sentence or maybe not even the same paragraph as Wayne at this point.
Sid has a shot at Jagr's level, he's not there yet but he's got a shot and that's a pretty god damned high level to be in reach of.
Anyone who takes this to be insulting to Sid is quite frankly an idiot!

Jagr has a full career, if we compare apples with apples, and I know this is a stretch for you at times, Sid blows Jagr out of the water for the 1st 7 or 8 seasons, depending if you want to include this current year or not.

Maybe in fantasy hockey Jagr was close but not in terms of his overall game and impact to his team.

 

[Rhiessan71]

As long as you are consistent but you aren't.

Did you know that Mario played over 70 games exactly 6 times, including one time at 70 games in his career?

Everyone knows that Sid has been injured and it's also plain to see how well he has produced when he has been playing with those superstar wingers of his.

But context only matters for certain players right?

You can not seriously be trying to compare Mario's 70 game seasons or even his 60@160points season to what Sid has done in only 41, 22 and 35 games.

As I pointed out in a previous thread, Mario gets the benefit of the doubt for his '01 half season because he has and did score at that rate and much higher previously.
Sid has NEVER achieved his current production over a full season before and until he does, he does NOT get the same benefit of a doubt!!!

THAT'S THE CONTEXT!

Why does everything come back to this for you?

It does because it's relevant to this situation.
Lidstrom was a great player. Sid is right on the cusp of earning the same distinction but neither are THE Greatest nor should either be seriously considered as such IMO.

Edit: Not YET for Sid anyway.

The thread is about Wayne and possible players like him, I put Dmen and goalies in separate categories as it's pretty much impossible to judge fairly across positions.

That's your choice.

But since you mentioned it he did dominate his position very Wayne like in the 1st decade of the 2000's

That's ridiculous! Don't even start this crap again!

Jagr has a full career, if we compare apples with apples, and I know this is a stretch for you at times, Sid blows Jagr out of the water for the 1st 7 or 8 seasons, depending if you want to include this current year or not.

Apples to apples for me is comparing them WHEN Sid's career is over. Sid has been better than Jagr was in their first few seasons BUT Sid has only played about 70-75% of his team's games so far and he will have to put in FULL seasons at his current levels to come close to Jagr's prime.

Maybe in fantasy hockey Jagr was close but not in terms of his overall game and impact to his team.

Oh?
Last I checked the Pens were still a .650 team (107 points) last year without Crosby and a .623 team (102 points) the year before without him.

Hmmm...lets see how the Pens did in 99/00 with and without Jagr...

Final record 37-31-8-6 .537
With Jagr 31-23-5-4 .563
Without Jagr 6-8-3-2 .447


Interesting no?

Don't make me get "Czech your Math" involved with this, he will bury you with Jagr stats and cut your legs out from under you so bad that your grand children will still need step stools.

 

[Hardyvan123]

You can not seriously be trying to compare Mario's 70 game seasons or even his 60@160points season to what Sid has done in only 41, 22 and 35 games.

As I pointed out in a previous thread, Mario gets the benefit of the doubt for his '01 half season because he has and did score at that rate and much higher previously.
Sid has NEVER achieved his current production over a full season before and until he does, he does NOT get the same benefit of a doubt!!!

THAT'S THE CONTEXT!

The context for Mario is that his team took a long time to reach the playoffs and he missed alot of games plain and simple.

He played in

73
79
63
77
76
59
26
64
60
22
missed
70
76
missed
missed
missed
43
24
67
10
26

No player does anything to help his team win when he isn't playing and even when Mario was playing and putting up stats he wasn't playing defensive hockey and his plus minus, impact on his team over his entire career is a bit lacking when one looks at it.

The amount of talent and experience brought in for those 2 Cup runs was enormous.

sure Mario was the best player on that team but I'll take Wayne and at least 10 other guys ahead of Mario if I want to win the SC.

Mario broke into the league and tied for 13th in his 1st season of scoring.

Sids's 1st season he was 6th and has never been not a top 3 point producer when healthy.

Basically Sid has been by far the best PPG player in the NHL during his time in the league and also plays a pretty decent 2 way game as well, compared to Mario especially and even Wayne.

Apples to apples for me is comparing them WHEN Sid's career is over. Sid has been better than Jagr was in their first few seasons BUT Sid has only played about 70-75% of his team's games so far and he will have to put in FULL seasons at his current levels to come close to Jagr's prime.

Then don't bring up guys retired or close to the end of their careers if you can't make a realistic and fair comparison.

We all know how Sid compares to the field from post lockout NHL.

Really how can you not compare their 1st 7 or 8 seasons?

Only if you don't like the result is my guess.

Oh?
Last I checked the Pens were still a .650 team (107 points) last year without Crosby and a .623 team (102 points) the year before without him.

Hmmm...lets see how the Pens did in 99/00 with and without Jagr...

Final record 37-31-8-6 .537
With Jagr 31-23-5-4 .563
Without Jagr 6-8-3-2 .447


Interesting no?

Don't make me get "Czech your Math" involved with this, he will bury you with Jagr stats and cut your legs out from under you so bad that your grand children will still need step stools.

Well Ottawa is doing great without their top center and Karlsson, it's more indicative of how the NHL works these days than the value of the top players those teams have.

But then again you would never bring up Karlsson and Ottawa's success without him because you like him as a player.

Hopefully the injury Sid suffered today won't be serious but it's pretty obvious that you aren't treating Sid and Mario fairly in the time they both missed in their 1st 7 or 8 years either.

At least you are consistently inconsistent in your application of different standards for different players.

 

[Big Phil]

Did you know that Mario played over 70 games exactly 6 times, including one time at 70 games in his career?

Everyone knows that Sid has been injured and it's also plain to see how well he has produced when he has been playing with those superstar wingers of his.

But context only matters for certain players right?

I think a lot of us still want to see it other than just giving him credit for it before it happens. Kind of like how the Pens by all accounts should win the Cup this year or it'll be a disgrace. However, you can't hand them the Cup until they earn it.

As for Lemieux the difference between him and pretty much anyone not named Gretzky is that his 60-70 game seasons were better than what almost anyone else could even do - just once - in a season. Mario put up more points in a season in 60 games than anyone else but Wayne. When you still win the scoring race by a clear margin and miss 24 games it is hard to penalize the guy for that. I mean the guy had back to back seasons where he won the Art Ross with 64 and 60 games. Just for the heck of it he did it in an extremely competitive season (1993) where everyone seemed to have a career year. So I think it's a big difference when a guy has a partial season and still wins the Art Ross. It still counts as a great season.

 

[Wizeman*]

I think a lot of us still want to see it other than just giving him credit for it before it happens. Kind of like how the Pens by all accounts should win the Cup this year or it'll be a disgrace. However, you can't hand them the Cup until they earn it.

As for Lemieux the difference between him and pretty much anyone not named Gretzky is that his 60-70 game seasons were better than what almost anyone else could even do - just once - in a season. Mario put up more points in a season in 60 games than anyone else but Wayne. When you still win the scoring race by a clear margin and miss 24 games it is hard to penalize the guy for that. I mean the guy had back to back seasons where he won the Art Ross with 64 and 60 games. Just for the heck of it he did it in an extremely competitive season (1993) where everyone seemed to have a career year. So I think it's a big difference when a guy has a partial season and still wins the Art Ross. It still counts as a great season.

I still say there were some nights Lemiuex was better than Gretzky , but Marios health problems and Waynes ability to avoid serious injury is what separates these two men more than their real talent.

Gretzky was a slightly better talent because he used the ice and his team mates better than anyone in history.

Mario is only rivaled by Bobby Orr in terms of pure individual talent to ever lace up skates.

 

[Big Phil]

I still say there were some nights Lemiuex was better than Gretzky , but Marios health problems and Waynes ability to avoid serious injury is what separates these two men more than their real talent.

Gretzky was a slightly better talent because he used the ice and his team mates better than anyone in history.

Mario is only rivaled by Bobby Orr in terms of pure individual talent to ever lace up skates.

Durability no doubt helped Gretzky. But even with both men at their best it is hard to go against Gretzky. He was the player who led his team to greater heights. I don't think anyone could call Lemieux - as great as he was - a better clutch player than Gretzky. Mario had 1991 and 1992 as his gems and on a PPG basis he was always good in the postseason but his team was upset more than Gretzky's. There were more times that the Penguins SHOULD have won than the Oilers or Kings.

 

[Rhiessan71]

The context for Mario is that his team took a long time to reach the playoffs and he missed alot of games plain and simple.

He played in

73
79
63
77
76
59
26
64
60
22
missed
70
76
missed
missed
missed
43
24
67
10
26

No player does anything to help his team win when he isn't playing and even when Mario was playing and putting up stats he wasn't playing defensive hockey and his plus minus, impact on his team over his entire career is a bit lacking when one looks at it.

The amount of talent and experience brought in for those 2 Cup runs was enormous.

sure Mario was the best player on that team but I'll take Wayne and at least 10 other guys ahead of Mario if I want to win the SC.

Mario broke into the league and tied for 13th in his 1st season of scoring.

Sids's 1st season he was 6th and has never been not a top 3 point producer when healthy.

Basically Sid has been by far the best PPG player in the NHL during his time in the league and also plays a pretty decent 2 way game as well, compared to Mario especially and even Wayne.

You do realise of course that even with Mario missing the time he did in his first 7 years, he still played 81% of the his teams' games which is still almost 10% more games played than Sid has in his first 7 seasons. He also won the Calder, 2 Art Ross, 2 Pearson's, the Conn and a Hart during that time. At time I might add where he is competing against Wayne freakin Greztky himself.
So I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove with what you just said here heh

Then don't bring up guys retired or close to the end of their careers if you can't make a realistic and fair comparison.

We all know how Sid compares to the field from post lockout NHL.

Really how can you not compare their 1st 7 or 8 seasons?

Only if you don't like the result is my guess.

Dude, you're the one trying to elevate Crosby above the guys with full or almost full careers.
Crosby has around 75% of 8 seasons in atm and you want to put him up with the likes of Jagr because his first few seasons were better than his.
It's ridiculous. Crosby has to put in FULL seasons at this level to truly be in the same class as Jagr in his prime.

Well Ottawa is doing great without their top center and Karlsson, it's more indicative of how the NHL works these days than the value of the top players those teams have.

But then again you would never bring up Karlsson and Ottawa's success without him because you like him as a player.

Hopefully the injury Sid suffered today won't be serious but it's pretty obvious that you aren't treating Sid and Mario fairly in the time they both missed in their 1st 7 or 8 years either.

At least you are consistently inconsistent in your application of different standards for different players.

You're damned right I'm not treating Sid and Mario the same! They are NOT the same!
Mario is one of the top 4 players to ever play the game. Sid has about 75% of 8 seasons in and he is not even ****ing remotely in Mario's class yet. He's not even in Jagr's ****ing class yet FFS!!!
Enough ******** already and give your head a shake with this crap!

 

[Pominville Knows]

Whatever. All you doubters of Crosbys emergence as an all-time great will be proven wrong eventually. I'm not saying top four, but we are sure in for a ride these next couple of years.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Whatever. All you doubters of Crosbys emergence as an all-time great will be proven wrong eventually. I'm not saying top four, but we are sure in for a ride these next couple of years.

You can't give a guy credit for what he hasn't done yet.

Crosby's accomplishments so far do not make him an all-time great. I think he will be. But I also thought Ovechkin would be.