Will Nolan Finish Off The Season?

[haseoke39]

Quitting might be his most dignified choice. Never getting an NHL job again. Might as well go out standing for integrity of competition.

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

Nolan on trades: "were not going to be like sacrificial lambs and just go out there and get slaughtered."

Yikes.

Oof. I am starting to get a "Us vs. Them" vibe from Nolan. I am under the impression that Nolan is not loving management. I see Nolan finishing out the season and then either getting canned or leaving on his own terms. Especially with Murray's claim that he wants to be competitive next year. I don't really see how Nolan fits into those plans.

 

[joshjull]

Quitting might be his most dignified choice. Never getting an NHL job again. Might as well go out standing for integrity of competition.

Now Nolan is quitting. Nolan knew what he was getting into at the start of the season even if you did not. This is right up there with Murray will make trades to improve the team or fire Nolan if we lose too much for appearances sake.

For a guy that went on and on and on about the importance of finishing last and picking at the top. That everything and anything needs to be done to make it happen. You don't seem to have the strongest grasp on what that was going to look like.

 

[26CornerBlitz]

@BNHarrington

Nolan on Evander Kane: "I don't know him as a person that well. So hopefully I get to know him." (my comment: don't think it's happening)

 

[joshjull]

Oof. I am starting to get a "Us vs. Them" vibe from Nolan. I am under the impression that Nolan is not loving management. .

Definitely but thats for the locker room not Murray or us. He said similar things last year at the deadline.

I see Nolan finishing out the season and then either getting canned or leaving on his own terms. Especially with Murray's claim that he wants to be competitive next year. I don't really see how Nolan fits into those plans

He isn't going to quit. Why would he with the type of team he could have next year. Fired is another matter and thats obviously not his call

 

[haseoke39]

Now Nolan is quitting. Nolan knew what he was getting into at the start of the season even if you did not. This is right up there with Murray will make trades to improve the team or fire Nolan if we lose too much for appearances sake.

For a guy that went on and on and on about the importance of finishing last and picking at the top. That everything and anything needs to be done to make it happen. You don't seem to have the strongest grasp on what that was going to look like.

Bait.

 

[wunderpanda]

Nolan on trades: "were not going to be like sacrificial lambs and just go out there and get slaughtered."

Yikes.

Yikes? It's the right thing to say, he will keep pushing the team to play well the rest of the season. The team won't just stop trying, he will keep the players focused on playing hard.

Also, can't take what Murray says on the radio as gospel, he is still pretending he didn't plan on drafting 1st this year. He has blamed losing on the players not performing, said he tried to sign players to make the team a winner, goes on about how statistics matter and somehow ignore the fact he didn't sign any centers.

 

[Paxon]

Yikes? It's the right thing to say, he will keep pushing the team to play well the rest of the season. The team won't just stop trying, he will keep the players focused on playing hard.

Also, can't take what Murray says on the radio as gospel, he is still pretending he didn't plan on drafting 1st this year. He has blamed losing on the players not performing, said he tried to sign players to make the team a winner, goes on about how statistics matter and somehow ignore the fact he didn't sign any centers.

While there's some truth to what you're saying, you're exaggerating quite a lot to the point where I'm not sure your conclusion is accurate.

Murray certainly isn't planning on drafting 1st this year. That'd be idiotic. The Sabres have, at most, a 20% chance of drafting 1st. That's without factoring in our chance of finishing last. That puts us more at, say, a 16% chance of drafting 1st how I see it. I get that you probably mean finishing last, but even so it's such a stretch to think he planned on finishing last. He could have done a better job of increasing the chances we finished last without harming appearances much more than they are.

Did he say he tried to make the team a winner? No. He said thought he improved the team. Most of us thought the team was improved to some degree. I don't think anyone counted on, say, Hodgson being so useless. A majority didn't think Meszaros and Benoit would be even worse than what we had last year.

Now, you and I and most everyone knew all along the team was going to be a serious bottom-feeder. So did Murray. But he's not really saying he thought otherwise. You just have to read between the lines in what he says and you'll see he hasn't lied about this or anything else so far. Having to read between the lines means you maybe can't be 100% sure of your take on what he says, but that's how it should be. He has to use political speech to some degree. It's part of the job.

 

[wunderpanda]

While there's some truth to what you're saying, you're exaggerating quite a lot to the point where I'm not sure your conclusion is accurate.

Murray certainly isn't planning on drafting 1st this year. That'd be idiotic. The Sabres have, at most, a 20% chance of drafting 1st. That's without factoring in our chance of finishing last. That puts us more at, say, a 16% chance of drafting 1st how I see it. I get that you probably mean finishing last, but even so it's such a stretch to think he planned on finishing last. He could have done a better job of increasing the chances we finished last without harming appearances much more than they are.

Yes, I should have said finishing last but I do think it was his plan. He didn't bring in centers and the players can't seem to keep the puck. He did bring in pieces that look good in the right circumstances, Moulson, Gorges, Gionta are positive additions and upgrades over Leino, Conacher and Omark. The talent level was set pretty low last season so most anyone would seem an improvement.

Did he say he tried to make the team a winner? No. He said thought he improved the team. Most of us thought the team was improved to some degree. I don't think anyone counted on, say, Hodgson being so useless. A majority didn't think Meszaros and Benoit would be even worse than what we had last year.

Again, I agree. I don't remember the exact quote about winning / improving, the part that stuck in my head was along the lines of *the players we let go aren't in the league, we replaced not NHL players with NHL players*

Now, you and I and most everyone knew all along the team was going to be a serious bottom-feeder. So did Murray. But he's not really saying he thought otherwise. You just have to read between the lines in what he says and you'll see he hasn't lied about this or anything else so far. Having to read between the lines means you maybe can't be 100% sure of your take on what he says, but that's how it should be. He has to use political speech to some degree. It's part of the job.

Again, I think we agree on this as well. He speaks in a way that is open to interpretation, corporate doubletalk, he doesn't lie but he isn't forthcoming either. You can't accept what he says at face value. We have similar conclusions, he isn't the blunt straight shooter, his political speech undermines that reputation.

Regardless, his action in lobbying to not change the draft and inaction with aspects of the roster reinforce his intentions of finishing last and ensuring a top draft pick.

And to steer back on topic, you cannot fairly judge Nolan (by the teams record) in that environment. The goal was to lose, the role of Nolan is to keep morale up and develop the few players that will remain on the team moving forward. He has done admirably under the circumstances and shouldn't be getting blame.

 

[HiddenInLight]

Yes, I should have said finishing last but I do think it was his plan. He didn't bring in centers and the players can't seem to keep the puck. He did bring in pieces that look good in the right circumstances, Moulson, Gorges, Gionta are positive additions and upgrades over Leino, Conacher and Omark. The talent level was set pretty low last season so most anyone would seem an improvement.



Again, I agree. I don't remember the exact quote about winning / improving, the part that stuck in my head was along the lines of *the players we let go aren't in the league, we replaced not NHL players with NHL players*



Again, I think we agree on this as well. He speaks in a way that is open to interpretation, corporate doubletalk, he doesn't lie but he isn't forthcoming either. You can't accept what he says at face value. We have similar conclusions, he isn't the blunt straight shooter, his political speech undermines that reputation.

Regardless, his action in lobbying to not change the draft and inaction with aspects of the roster reinforce his intentions of finishing last and ensuring a top draft pick.

And to steer back on topic, you cannot fairly judge Nolan (by the teams record) in that environment. The goal was to lose, the role of Nolan is to keep morale up and develop the few players that will remain on the team moving forward. He has done admirably under the circumstances and shouldn't be getting blame.

The reason Nolan will not be here next year isn't the losing. It's the fact that he refuses to work with young players.

 

[haseoke39]

The reason Nolan will not be here next year isn't the losing. It's the fact that he refuses to work with young players.

That really stopped being true after Reinhart, no?

 

[HiddenInLight]

That really stopped being true after Reinhart, no?

I doubt he has changed his philosophy. He said since coming in that young guys deserve to be in Jrs or the AHL regardless of where they were drafted. Getting McEichel into a Ted Nolan lineup is going to be next to impossible, and even if he is in the lineup, he will probably stick him on the fourth line. Nolan has already completely destroyed Hodgson as a player, I don't want him doing that to Rinehart or McEichel. We need a guy that is willing to play with a young roster.

 

[Ruckus007]

I doubt he has changed his philosophy. He said since coming in that young guys deserve to be in Jrs or the AHL regardless of where they were drafted. Getting McEichel into a Ted Nolan lineup is going to be next to impossible, and even if he is in the lineup, he will probably stick him on the fourth line. Nolan has already completely destroyed Hodgson as a player, I don't want him doing that to Rinehart or McEichel. We need a guy that is willing to play with a young roster.

Zadorov? Ristolainen? Girgensons?

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

The reason Nolan will not be here next year isn't the losing. It's the fact that he refuses to work with young players.

The NHL isn't a developmental-territory, if the youngster can't handle playing in the NHL yet, they can develop somewhere else so they can become ready. Can't just throw a team of youngsters to the wolves that is the best teams and players in the world, that could really get ugly.

 

[Beerz]

I had a dream where Nolan told the press Murray was intentionally tanking and Murray fired him.

 

[mikemcburn]

I had a dream where Nolan told the press Murray was intentionally tanking and Murray fired him.

I like your dream state. What's your juice of choice? (so I can try to replicate)

Still, the first part is not far off the mark from reality - I sure get the sense from Nolan's commentary that he'd like to say something along those lines. Flying close to the flame, anyway.

 

[joshjull]

I doubt he has changed his philosophy. He said since coming in that young guys deserve to be in Jrs or the AHL regardless of where they were drafted. Getting McEichel into a Ted Nolan lineup is going to be next to impossible, and even if he is in the lineup, he will probably stick him on the fourth line. Nolan has already completely destroyed Hodgson as a player, I don't want him doing that to Rinehart or McEichel. We need a guy that is willing to play with a young roster.

So basically you're frustrated with how Nolan handles Hodgson. A completely legit complaint. But then you went off the rails trying to use that to claim Nolan can't or won't work with young players. That assertion is utter nonsense that the facts on the ground easily refute. Every young player on this roster has played and played well on this roster with the exception of Hodgson. Myers, Ennis, Girgs, Risto and Zads have all respond to Nolan and he's work well with all of them.


As for a possible reason why Nolan would get fired after the season. It won't be because we are losing and it won't be because of how he handles young players. It will be as simple as this….. Murray sees a better option and fires Nolan to get him. If Murray has made anything clear in his short tenure, he will go after anything he feels will make the team better and will part with anything to make it happen.

 

[HiddenInLight]

So basically you're frustrated with how Nolan handles Hodgson. A completely legit complaint. But then you went off the rails trying to use that to claim Nolan can't or won't work with young players. That assertion is utter nonsense that the facts on the ground easily refute. Every young player on this roster has played and played well on this roster with the exception of Hodgson. Myers, Ennis, Girgs, Risto and Zads have all respond to Nolan and he's work well with all of them.


As for a possible reason why Nolan would get fired after the season. It won't be because we are losing and it won't be because of how he handles young players. It will be as simple as this….. Murray sees a better option and fires Nolan to get him. If Murray has made anything clear in his short tenure, he will go after anything he feels will make the team better and will part with anything to make it happen.

Its' not just Hodgson, I've been pretty unhappy with how he has been handling Zadorov, especially at the beginning of the year. Additionally the fact that he is calling up guys like Matt Ellis to cover injuries instead of bringing up the younger guys like Grigorenko or until yesterday Armia, where a few NHL games would be very helpful for their development, then a guy like Ellis would be for the team. The fact that he's constantly putting our younger guys in the press box or letting them Rot on the 4th line doesn't help either. How about the fact that he is still playing guys like Mazaros and Benoit instead of bringing up the kids that are going to be a big part of our future like Pysyk or McCabe? He said in an interview on WGR earlier this season that he has trouble getting through to younger guys and prefers working with the veterens. The guy simply doesn't know how to handle young talent.

 

[joshjull]

I've been trying to wrap my head around whether or not Hodgson fits long term based on the type of team Murray wants.

Murray obviously wants a team that plays a heavy two way game like LA does. He still has room for skill players. My question is does Hodgson have enough skill to make up for the fact that he isn't someone that plays a heavy game or two way game?

I go back and forth on this. Put in the right situation Hodgson could have success. But is Murray going to worry about creating that situation for him?

 

[HiddenInLight]

I've been trying to wrap my head around whether or not Hodgson fits long term based on the type of team Murray wants.

Murray obviously wants a team that plays a heavy two way game like LA does. He still has room for skill players. My question is does Hodgson have enough skill to make up for the fact that he isn't someone that plays a heavy game or two way game?

I go back and forth on this. Put in the right situation Hodgson could have success. But is Murray going to worry about creating that situation for him?

Hodgson is the type of player that needs to play with talent around him to be effective. Like when he was putting up some good numbers between Vanek and Pomminville, but then severely regressed when they moved him out of that spot.

 

[Baccus]

Its' not just Hodgson, I've been pretty unhappy with how he has been handling Zadorov, especially at the beginning of the year. Additionally the fact that he is calling up guys like Matt Ellis to cover injuries instead of bringing up the younger guys like Grigorenko or until yesterday Armia, where a few NHL games would be very helpful for their development, then a guy like Ellis would be for the team. The fact that he's constantly putting our younger guys in the press box or letting them Rot on the 4th line doesn't help either. How about the fact that he is still playing guys like Mazaros and Benoit instead of bringing up the kids that are going to be a big part of our future like Pysyk or McCabe? He said in an interview on WGR earlier this season that he has trouble getting through to younger guys and prefers working with the veterens. The guy simply doesn't know how to handle young talent.

You understand that Tim Murray is the one who calls people up and sets the roster, Nolan decides who plays and the lines. Murray has kept the kids down in the AHL, not Nolan. Zadorov probably only stayed up in the NHL because of his eligibility issues and from most reports needed the beginning of the season to get into better shape which is why he was sitting. Most of your complaints seem like they should be aimed at Murray not Nolan.

Zadorov, Risto and Girgs have all been pretty solid this year, so I don't see how he's having so much trouble working with young talent.

 

[joshjull]

Its' not just Hodgson, I've been pretty unhappy with how he has been handling Zadorov, especially at the beginning of the year. Additionally the fact that he is calling up guys like Matt Ellis to cover injuries instead of bringing up the younger guys like Grigorenko or until yesterday Armia, where a few NHL games would be very helpful for their development, then a guy like Ellis would be for the team. The fact that he's constantly putting our younger guys in the press box or letting them Rot on the 4th line doesn't help either. How about the fact that he is still playing guys like Mazaros and Benoit instead of bringing up the kids that are going to be a big part of our future like Pysyk or McCabe? He said in an interview on WGR earlier this season that he has trouble getting through to younger guys and prefers working with the veterens. The guy simply doesn't know how to handle young talent.

You seem to be the only one on this board that doesn't know by now that MURRAY completely controls who comes up from the Amerks. Grigs, Armia , McCabe and Pysyk in Rochester is Murray's doing not Nolan's. So getting mad at Nolan over something he has zero control over is pretty silly.

You also posted a baffling and contradictory complaint. You're mad Ellis is up on the 4th line and that Grigs or Armia aren't called up. Yet in the same sentence you state you would complain anyway if they were called up and on the 4th line. Not to mention who are the young guys that are constantly getting put on the 4th line?


As for Zads I'm guessing you aren't up on that either based on your call up complaints. Zads was not in shape and had some "habits", the team was very vague about , that needed fixing. He was also able to stay here under somewhat confusing circumstances. In that his agent claims he could get a waiver to go back to juniors from his Russian team. So the coaches and vets worked with him over that month to get his conditioning to where it needs to be so he could play. They worked with him outside the normal practice ice times btw. Obviously based on Zads incident post ALl Star break some of the off ice stuff is still a work in progress. Its worth noting Nolan defended the kid and said it was his or the teams fault for not staying in contact with him. Basically covering for heads.

If you want to be mad at Nolan then at least get the facts straight.

 

[YoungGrapes]

Just a couple things, first time poster long time reader here lol.

1) In regards to Nolan not wanting to coach or develop young players and development is for Junior or the AHL. This may be true, but perhaps the consensus around the NHL is the best coach in the league is Mike Babcock (which I agree with). Detroit is FAMOUS for sending their young players back to Junior and leaving prospects in the AHL sometimes a year later then people think they should to become a pro. On the flip side EDM rushed their first overall picks and they are still bottom feeders.

2) CoHo has not had a very good season there is no question about that. VAN moved him early in his career for Kassian (a player with probably 3rd line potential). Hodgson is awful in his own zone, refuses to hit someone and it is extremely embarrassing to watch him even attempt to block a shot. I think with his foot speed and even his overall game is not at the NHL level. He isn't good enough to be a top two line player especially this season and doesn't have the work ethic or defensive skill to be on the bottom two lines.

3) On the topic of GMTM short and sweet here is my gripes. A) He was primarily in charge of the Sens AHL team, he sure built a powerhouse there with prospects (last in the division). B) Barnaby spoke that the worst kept secret is that Luke Richardson is coming to coach the Sabres, nothing like having the 3rd last place team overall Head Coach get promoted to the NHL. C) All the young great prospects that the Sabres talk about for the future in the AHL are doing a bang up job as they are in 2nd last place to Baby Sens. Every team has top two round players in the minors and in junior, the difference is other teams young players are developing in the AHL for the most part. D) Everyone talked about what a great scout GMTM was in OTT, well the lowly Sabres outshot them and almost beat them, their best players (Ryan, Methot, Legward, Anderson, Turris, McArthur).
Draft Break Down since 2009 (with players that have played in the NHL)
2009
1st rd - 1
2nd - 2
5th - 1
2010
6th - 1
2011
1st - 1 out 3 picks
4th - 1
2012
1st - 1
2013
1st - 1
2014
0
Their best draft was 2008 when they took Karlson in First round, and granted some players take longer to develop, but what worries me is the fact the people always say the 1st rounders are usually locks ro no brainers. The teams that have success make the 2-7th round picks as sleepers and since 09 they only have 4 on their lineup. Also they are still in the bottom 3rd of the league overall at 23.

 

[Sabre the Win]

Hodgson is the type of player that needs to play with talent around him to be effective. Like when he was putting up some good numbers between Vanek and Pomminville, but then severely regressed when they moved him out of that spot.

There still is a 2nd line that needs to be filled. He could slot in at the wing on the 2nd line and play with Reinhart, even if its just for next year. The only problem with this theory is if we get one of McEichel and automatically put him 1st line center do we throw Reinhart automatically 2nd line center and have two young kids playing down the middle? Worst comes to worse and Reinhart plays sheltered 3rd line center role and Hodgson plays his wing would still work. However I don't know how they will play the kids next year but Hodgson with a playmaking talent like Reinhart could instantly revitalize him. He's spent most of the year with Kaleta on the 4th line. His production numbers are sure to dwindle.

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

Hodgson is the type of player that needs to play with talent around him to be effective. Like when he was putting up some good numbers between Vanek and Pomminville, but then severely regressed when they moved him out of that spot.

I think that was the case, unfortunately Cody Hodgson played together with two very talented players who helped him have a good season. And we had some rose-tinted-glasses on because he was a new and young player who was picked early in his draft-year. But in hindsight, his play isn't good enough to warrant him being a first-liner with the two top guys. Sure, they could try that today, i wouldn't be against it to see how he responds but i don't think they have faith in him anymore. Atleast not Nolan.

Good post Young Grapes!