Will Matt Finn be a more valuable player then Jake Gardiner?

[The Winter Soldier]

Posting that Dion was hurt when nothing ever was posted that he was.....is garbage. Now Gunnar who was our best D man carried Dion and Dion's plus minus fell only after Carlyle went to a 7 man rotation....while Gunnar kept his high plus minus. To add Gunnar was playing hurt all season long as seen by him have surgery at seasons end!

Gunnar was our best D man last season and the stats are there for all to see.....even you!

What Dion has to do with us discussion Gardiner is baffling!

Dion was playing hurt from that hit in the Florida game, I know you don't like him, but be objective enough to at least acknowledge he was ailing late in the year, he also left in the game in the Ranger game. Most of us know it started here in this game.

http://video.mapleleafs.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=555889

 

[diceman934]

Dion was playing hurt from that hit in the Florida game, I know you don't like him, but be objective enough to at least acknowledge he was ailing late in the year, he also left in the game in the Ranger game. Most of us know it started here in this game.

http://video.mapleleafs.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=555889

I have nothing to acknowledge other that his piss poor play away from Gunnar. No one came out after the season to say that Dion was playing hurt and they would have had that been true.

Look how he played the year before without Gunnar, he lead the league in giveaways....

Can we get back to discussing Gardiner.....

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I have nothing to acknowledge other that his piss poor play away from Gunnar. No one came out after the season to say that Dion was playing hurt and they would have had that been true.

Look how he played the year before without Gunnar, he lead the league in giveaways....

Can we get back to discussing Gardiner.....

Sure, you never answered, who would you take out of LA or NY's defensive pairings for Jake?

Do you think he would be disciplined enough to play for a coach like Sutter, if you think Carlyle was tough, imagine Sutter.

 

[diceman934]

Sure, you never answered, who would you take out of LA or NY's defensive pairings for Jake?

Do you think he would be disciplined enough to play for a coach like Sutter, if you think Carlyle was tough, imagine Sutter.

Gardiner plays for Toronto and not LA nor NY....we are discussing as the subject matter Gardiner vs Flinn...

Yes he could play for Sutter.....you keep thinking that Gardiner did not listen to Carlyle, yet Carlyle played him a lot...He obvious listened to Carlyle and would again listen to Sutter. He would be playing on both teams in the final....who he would replace would be the coaches decision.....I will tell you that when the Leafs played LA and Chi look at who played a lot!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Gardiner plays for Toronto and not LA nor NY....we are discussing as the subject matter Gardiner vs Flinn...

Yes he could play for Sutter.....you keep thinking that Gardiner did not listen to Carlyle, yet Carlyle played him a lot...He obvious listened to Carlyle and would again listen to Sutter. He would be playing on both teams in the final....who he would replace would be the coaches decision.....I will tell you that when the Leafs played LA and Chi look at who played a lot!

I gather from your earlier reply, and your reluctance to answer a discussable topic within the realms of a Finn/Gardiner thread, when you asked me earlier do I think Gardiner is good?

My answer.

No, he is not good enough to play for LA or NY's starting line up at this moment.

Now if you asked me to project for the future since Finn is a part of this discussion, I would say he would have more chance to play for LA or NY, because IMO he already has the size and hockey IQ that Sutter or Vignault would appreciate in their defenceman.

Don't forget NY already has shown a penchant for trading low IQ high risk defence men when they dealt MDZ. Some would say he plays the game like Jake.

 

[diceman934]

I gather from your earlier reply, and your reluctance to answer a discussable topic within the realms of a Finn/Gardiner thread, when you asked me earlier do I think Gardiner is good?

My answer.

No, he is not good enough to play for LA or NY's starting line up at this moment.

Now if you asked me to project for the future since Finn is a part of this discussion, I would say he would have more chance to play for LA or NY, because IMO he already has the size and hockey IQ that Sutter or Vignault would appreciate in their defenceman.

Don't forget NY already has shown a penchant for trading low IQ high risk defence men when they dealt MDZ. Some would say he plays the game like Jake.

What does LA or NY have to do with the discussion.....nothing at all.

Finn currently is an OHL player who still uses his stick far to much....sound familiar? He needs to work on his agility and overall speed.

What size does he have? He is considered as a average size player yet you would have me believe that he is huge. 6ft about 200lbs. Not 6'3" and 220...etc

Finn competes hard and that is a plus, but his skating is a big issue to over come if he is going to be an impact player in the NHL. I like his game but his skating needs lots of work.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

What does LA or NY have to do with the discussion.....nothing at all.

Flinn currently is an OHL player who still uses his stick far to much....sound familiar? He needs to work on his agility and overall speed.

What size does he have? He is considered as a average size player yet you would have me believe that he is huge. 6ft about 200lbs. Not 6'3" and 220...etc

Flinn competes hard and that is a plus, but his skating is a big issue to over come if he is going to be an impact player in the NHL. I like his game but his skating needs lots of work.

You asked the question, whether I thought Gardiner was good or not. We are trying to be a team that competes against the best, the best this year is LA and NY.

For most, you want to strive to be as good as the best, this is what LA and NY have to do with the discussion. Pretty self explanatory, maybe some of us want to avoid the truth that Gardiner is not that good after all.

Are you saying Gardiner is good on the 26th GA team in the NHL, the 8th worst team in the NHL? Okay, maybe he is good for a bad team. But he is not good when you see where he ranks on LA or NY.

Finn is the same height as Girardi, and already 1 lbs heavier at age 20. Just to answer your question incase you didn't know.

Matt Finn
Guelph Storm
Number 4
Position Defence
Shoots Left
Height 6.01
Weight 204
Birthdate February 24, 1994
Hometown Toronto, ON

Dan Girardi #5
New York Rangers Defenseman
NUMBER: 5
HEIGHT: 6' 1"
WEIGHT: 203
BIRTHDATE: April 29, 1984 (AGE 30)
BIRTHPLACE: Welland, ON, Canada
SHOOTS: Right

 

[cookie]

Bieksa is known as a hard-nosed player but he's also smaller than Rielly. Size doesn't equal how tough a player plays the game. Here's hoping Finn's skating catches up to the speed of today's game.

 

[diceman934]

You asked the question, whether I thought Gardiner was good or not. We are trying to be a team that competes against the best, the best this year is LA and NY.

For most, you want to strive to be as good as the best, this is what LA and NY have to do with the discussion. Pretty self explanatory, maybe some of us want to avoid the truth that Gardiner is not that good after all.

Are you saying Gardiner is good on the 26th GA team in the NHL, the 8th worst team in the NHL? Okay, maybe he is good for a bad team. But he is not good when you see where he ranks on LA or NY.

Finn is the same height as Girardi, and already 1 lbs heavier at age 20. Just to answer your question incase you didn't know.

Matt Finn
Guelph Storm
Number 4
Position Defence
Shoots Left
Height 6.01
Weight 204
Birthdate February 24, 1994
Hometown Toronto, ON

Dan Girardi #5
New York Rangers Defenseman
NUMBER: 5
HEIGHT: 6' 1"
WEIGHT: 203
BIRTHDATE: April 29, 1984 (AGE 30)
BIRTHPLACE: Welland, ON, Canada
SHOOTS: Right

I asked you if you thought Gardiner was good, and you dished up BS and are continuing with serving it up.

Gardiner would be playing in the top 6 of both those teams.....

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I asked you if you thought Gardiner was good, and you dished up BS and are continuing with serving it up.

Gardiner would be playing in the top 6 of both those teams.....

Who would you take out of LA or NY's line up, why is it BS? What is good? Good compared to what? Compared to Franson, Ranger, or Fraser?

If this is what you term as good, you are not analyzing the complete picture.

I disagree I would have Willie Mitchell, Voynov, Martinez, Regier, Anton Stralman, John Moore, Klein, in before Gardiner.

To suggest otherwise at this point in his career, is just silly.

 

[mikebel111*]

Who would you take out of LA or NY's line up, why is it BS? What is good? Good compared to what? Compared to Franson, Ranger, or Fraser?

If this is what you term as good, you are not analyzing the complete picture.

I disagree I would have Willie Mitchell, Voynov, Martinez, Regier, Anton Stralman, John Moore, Klein, in before Gardiner.

To suggest otherwise at this point in his career, is just silly.

Yet your the one saying Finn could make those teams over Jake.
Finn I think will always remain inferior to Jake and you even know I am a huge Finn fan

 

[diceman934]

Just a reminder as it explains why I asked the question.

Self explanatory, those guys were part of a strong possession team, Grabovski who we both agreed was crap was a strong possession player. A puck hog infact. Having a team of strong possession players is not a guarantee to winning if they can't play.

Which would you rather have a good hockey player or just one that possesses the puck as the only criteria? Bottom line is you still need good hockey players to win. Are you disagreeing with this?

I then posted the following:

So you are saying that Gardiner is not a good hockey player? Thank god he does not feel the same way. Played the second most minutes on the Leafs D man this year, was second in D man scoring despite not playing on the #1 PP unit or most of the year. I say he is a good player who is only going to get better. He is not a puck hog as seen by his stats. He has produced 65 points in 167 games and I say this coming season gets 40 plus points.

You followed up without answering my question with a lot of nonsense that had nothing to do with the discussion and still does not.

 

[diceman934]

Yet your the one saying Finn could make those teams over Jake.
Finn I think will always remain inferior to Jake and you even know I am a huge Finn fan

I like Finn as well....but Gardiner is superior to Finn now and I see no reason why it would change.

 

[mikebel111*]

Agree with DM, and its Finn
Not Flinn

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Just a reminder as it explains why I asked the question.




I then posted the following:



You followed up without answering my question with a lot of nonsense that had nothing to do with the discussion and still does not.

I answered your question about do I think Gardiner is good. It is a couple of posts above.

Here it is again.

Who would you take out of LA or NY's line up, why is it BS? What is good? Good compared to what? Compared to Franson, Ranger, or Fraser?

If this is what you term as good, you are not analyzing the complete picture.

I disagree I would have Willie Mitchell, Voynov, Martinez, Regier, Anton Stralman, John Moore, Klein, in before Gardiner.

To suggest otherwise at this point in his career, is just silly.

Now who would you take out of LA or NY's line up, as you just told me, Gardiner would easily be in the top 6.

Furthermore part of a discussion is asking what perimeters of good is? Good as compared to Ranger or Franson. Or good as some of the better teams in the NHL, most want to look at the better teams and try to be as good as them.

I think you would rather deflect rather than to have a truthful discussion. You have not answered a question I have lobbed back at you while I have answered everything you asked.

Oh The points, Gardiner is a modest 30 pt offensive D man with flaws, Doughty is a 37 point D man and a whole lot more. Hope you see the difference.

Player>Points For some players, the Doughty comparable speaks volumes here.

 

[diceman934]

Agree with DM, and its Finn
Not Flinn

Cell disagrees.....with Finn....I noticed that!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yet your the one saying Finn could make those teams over Jake.
Finn I think will always remain inferior to Jake and you even know I am a huge Finn fan

I actually said this, if you are going to quote me, be accurate please.

Now if you asked me to project for the future since Finn is a part of this discussion, I would say he would have more chance to play for LA or NY, because IMO he already has the size and hockey IQ that Sutter or Vignault would appreciate in their defenceman.

 

[mikebel111*]

I actually said this, if you are going to quote me, be accurate please.

What did I say that was not accurate?
It doesn't matter what time frame, you still said Finn would be on those teams over Gardiner which isnt right

 

[The Winter Soldier]

What did I say that was not accurate?
It doesn't matter what time frame, you still said Finn would be on those teams over Gardiner which isnt right

I think Sutter and Vignault would take a smart, articulate, leader on the ice, one that is 204lbs, makes smart plays, is decent offensively rather than a rover / D man who can put up 30 points, but takes a lot of chances in a Stanley Cup final.

 

[mikebel111*]

I think Sutter and Vignault would take a smart, articulate, leader on the ice, one that is 204lbs, makes smart plays, is decent offensively rather than a rover / D man who can put up 30 points, but takes a lot of chances in a Stanley Cup final.

He would fit perfectly on those teams. Both teams have heavy for check and Gardiner would help either team get past the rushing forwards.
How quickly we forgot about the playoff series versus the Bruins?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

He would fit perfectly on those teams. Both teams have heavy for check and Gardiner would help either team get past the rushing forwards.
How quickly we forgot about the playoff series versus the Bruins?

How can I forget, when it was Franson and Gardiner with an assist from Grabovski who were the goats of the Bergeron series winning goal.

 

[diceman934]

I answered your question about do I think Gardiner is good. It is a couple of posts above.

Here it is again.



Now who would you take out of LA or NY's line up, as you just told me, Gardiner would easily be in the top 6.

Furthermore part of a discussion is asking what perimeters of good is? Good as compared to Ranger or Franson. Or good as some of the better teams in the NHL, most want to look at the better teams and try to be as good as them.

I think you would rather deflect rather than to have a truthful discussion. You have not answered a question I have lobbed back at you while I have answered everything you asked.

Oh The points, Gardiner is a modest 30 pt offensive D man with flaws, Doughty is a 37 point D man and a whole lot more. Hope you see the difference.

Player>Points For some players, the Doughty comparable speaks volumes here.

Who is comparing Doughty to Gardiner......you not me.

I asked you a simple question and you failed to answer it in many posts that followed....go back and check. You have deflected since we started this discussion about Gardiner....

I also stated several time what does LA or NYR have to do with our discussion about Gardiner......absolutely nothing is the answer!

Gardiner is a good player, he is a young developing D man who offensively can control a game. He is one of two D man that the Leafs have that can actually skate with the puck and make a pass. He is still learning the game as he lacked a lot of tough competition as a developing player going straight from High school to the NCAA. His offensive abilities are boarding on great and his skating elite. He needs to work on his play away from the puck and like all young D man makes poor decisions at times with the puck.....to me that is a good player!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Who is comparing Doughty to Gardiner......you not me.

I asked you a simple question and you failed to answer it in many posts that followed....go back and check. You have deflected since we started this discussion about Gardiner....

I also stated several time what does LA or NYR have to do with our discussion about Gardiner......absolutely nothing is the answer!

Gardiner is a good player, he is a young developing D man who offensively can control a game. He is one of two D man that the Leafs have that can actually skate with the puck and make a pass. He is still learning the game as he lacked a lot of tough competition as a developing player going straight from High school to the NCAA. His offensive abilities are boarding on great and his skating elite. He needs to work on his play away from the puck and like all young D man makes poor decisions at times with the puck.....to me that is a good player!

Here is one simple question for you to answer before I go to bed, Who is Gardiner good to? Give me a comparable. Can you do this?

 

[mikebel111*]

How can I forget, when it was Franson and Gardiner with an assist from Grabovski who were the goats of the Bergeron series winning goal.

You totally changed the subject. Looks like you know my post was right.
I am done here. My job going awesome and because of it my time on HF has decreased so much and 2 days off which I dont want to spend arguing about plus minuses. And its late here so good day to you.

 

[Purity*]

I answered your question about do I think Gardiner is good. It is a couple of posts above.

Here it is again.



Now who would you take out of LA or NY's line up, as you just told me, Gardiner would easily be in the top 6.

Furthermore part of a discussion is asking what perimeters of good is? Good as compared to Ranger or Franson. Or good as some of the better teams in the NHL, most want to look at the better teams and try to be as good as them.

I think you would rather deflect rather than to have a truthful discussion. You have not answered a question I have lobbed back at you while I have answered everything you asked.

Oh The points, Gardiner is a modest 30 pt offensive D man with flaws, Doughty is a 37 point D man and a whole lot more. Hope you see the difference.

Player>Points For some players, the Doughty comparable speaks volumes here.

You really didn't just compare Gardiner to Doughty, did you?