Will Goodenow go down in sports history as the smartest fool of all time?

[AM]

thats a no brainer

I really wonder about this.
On another forum, I raised the possibility of players playing the WHA, or perhaps the PA setting up a 12-team league to play 20-30 games or so, to compete with whatever the NHL does next season.
Now, it's a stretch, of course. But what if the NHL players were in the WHA or a new league?
Which would people watch? An NHL full of scrubs?
Or another league filled with the best players on earth.

WHich one would ESPN rather air? Iginla, LeCavallier et al in a new league? Or Rob Ray and Lonny Bohonos for the Ottawa Senators?

Ask yourself this, why would the players start a league, when they are getting most of the benefit playing in the NHL?

You'll notice the WHA is ramping up as we speak, you'd think(listening to the players) that the ground would be extremly fertile for it this season......!

You dont need to look at books to tell financial strength, you just have to see what weeds grow when the sun shines.

 

[sunb]

People might cheer for the jersey, but they pay for the product. That product is the best league of professional hockey. People would quickly lose interest in an ersatz version.

May I ask you where you bought your magic ball?

Apparently this poster thinks he can see into the future and easily assumes that the "people would quickly lose interest" in replacement players.

Until you have any proof, your theory is just as valid as my flying-pigs theory.

I think your theory is not only flawed but it is the complete opposite of what may transpire. I predict that fans would grow an affinity for the replacement players and come back to cheer on their new-found heros. And they'd wait for younger players (the NHL-calibre players born of 1986<) to develop and in a few years, they will see the best in the world.

Still, the interests in the league is not rigidly encompassed by the interest in the most talented players. Or else, junior hockey, ECHL hockey, European hockey and AHL hockey would have no fans. Fans have a certain loyalty to their team. What stops most fans of non-playoff teams from being Detroit Red Wing fans?

 

[thinkwild]

At any rate, the replacement players solution is scarcely envisioned as a lasting change in the product. It's just there to give one more jolt towards cracking the union's stance and bringing them back into the fold. So really, it's almost pointless to argue about the quality of the replacement product anyway. That's not what it's there for.

Well exactly. Replacement players isnt a solution. Its something we put up with until the players come back. If you would enjoy this, why would you want the players back. IT will only make games more expensive. Because when they come back, the owners can charge more and people will pay it.

They need each other plain and simple. The players are the product because they play in the best league in the world that has brand recognition because of the players in it, and the leagues marketing.

If the players all play in another league, you may still cheer for your NHL scab team, and it will be a league with an ongoing strike, not rife for making improvements and getting interest in, but it wouldnt be the best league in the world anymore. The trade board will be filled with wishes they could get one of those great players from the real leagues. A lot of the prospects you assume would play in the NHL, may prefer to play in the league with the best competition. Thats a lot of lost cachet. Not good for the brand. Not good for the bragging rights.

Will NHL scouts be looking for a different set of prospects? Better not draft this guy, he is too good, get someone more likely to play here.

Anyway, Bettman doesnt really need replacement players. Its not going to save the game. Its not the solution he needs. Its not going to make them the money they need. Its not going to solve things faster. Its not going to promote the brand.

 

[quat]

Yeh, because an intelligent answer like his is never preferable right?

Not at all. He pretty much asks the same question inserting Bettman as the subject.

 

[quat]

A dis?

Anyway, I think my points are legit.

No matter how you feel about Goodenow, this entire thing is ultimately on Bettman's watch, as commissioner.
If you think this lockout is justified, then you've got to be mighty angry that he, as commissioner, allowed the league to get to this point.
He had prior CBAs to work with, and obviously he failed.

Someone suggests Goodenow may be remembered for failing... etc etc, and you suggest Bettman is at fault for ... etc etc...

I'm not questioning the validity of your points, rather that I'm confused by your inablity to grasp how others may see things in another light. Insulting the poster for exactly the same kind of post you followed with... well, seems ironic to me.

I think a majority of people who follow hockey think Goodenow is the one that is screwing up, not Bettman. Goodenow is making unrealistic demands when one considers the state of the game today. You can blame Bettman all you want, but it hardly makes it true.

 

[quat]

Hockey is not a can of coke. The product changes, sometimes game to game... at the least, season to season.

If the rosters never changed, the players never aged... well then you could say then that the players were the product. But obviously this is not the case.

The Game is clearly the product. The players are simply people working for the product, and being extremely well paid for their efforts.

 

[I in the Eye]

The Game is clearly the product.

Agreed... Specifically, the Canucks vs. the Avs hockey game, the Mtl. vs. Toronto hockey game, the Tampa Bay vs. Calgary hockey game, etc...

My ticket has never said that I purchased Todd Bertuzzi for $65...

Granted, there are different NHL products... Like bobblehead dolls featuring Todd Bertuzzi, etc... But again, the product is the bobblehead doll... not the actual player...

IMO, the players determine the value of the product - and thus, are an invaluable input to the various products... But the players are "inputs" nonetheless, and not the product themselves...

IMO, a person hasn't been a product since the dark days of slavery... and even then, it was what the slaves "produced" (the work they did) which was actually the product... If you bought someone, put a lamp shade over their head, and put them in the corner, I guess then he/she would be the product...

 

[sunb]

I really wonder about this.
On another forum, I raised the possibility of players playing the WHA, or perhaps the PA setting up a 12-team league to play 20-30 games or so, to compete with whatever the NHL does next season.
Now, it's a stretch, of course. But what if the NHL players were in the WHA or a new league?
Which would people watch? An NHL full of scrubs?
Or another league filled with the best players on earth.

WHich one would ESPN rather air? Iginla, LeCavallier et al in a new league? Or Rob Ray and Lonny Bohonos for the Ottawa Senators?

There are too many holes in that hypethetical situation.
The players aren't going to do that out of spite.

 

[sunb]

Well exactly. Replacement players isnt a solution. Its something we put up with until the players come back. If you would enjoy this, why would you want the players back. IT will only make games more expensive. Because when they come back, the owners can charge more and people will pay it.

They need each other plain and simple. The players are the product because they play in the best league in the world that has brand recognition because of the players in it, and the leagues marketing.

If the players all play in another league, you may still cheer for your NHL scab team, and it will be a league with an ongoing strike, not rife for making improvements and getting interest in, but it wouldnt be the best league in the world anymore. The trade board will be filled with wishes they could get one of those great players from the real leagues. A lot of the prospects you assume would play in the NHL, may prefer to play in the league with the best competition. Thats a lot of lost cachet. Not good for the brand. Not good for the bragging rights.

Will NHL scouts be looking for a different set of prospects? Better not draft this guy, he is too good, get someone more likely to play here.

Anyway, Bettman doesnt really need replacement players. Its not going to save the game. Its not the solution he needs. Its not going to make them the money they need. Its not going to solve things faster. Its not going to promote the brand.

Replacement players are only a temporary solution.
With replacement players, the NHL won't be the best league in the world anymore but it would still be the richest.

It would only be a matter of time before the young guns like Frolik, Kessel, Setoguchi, Johnson et al to make the decision of either playing with the best of the world or playing in North America (home for many) at a higher salary.

It would also be a matter of time before the NHLPA crack as many NHLPA members break the ranks and rejoin the NHL.

It would only be a matter of time before the European leagues run out of money. How long can European teams like Omsk sustain their multi-dozen-million budget and consistently pay NHL'ers millions?

Time is in favor of the NHL.

 

[Blind Gardien]

I really wonder about this.
On another forum, I raised the possibility of players playing the WHA, or perhaps the PA setting up a 12-team league to play 20-30 games or so, to compete with whatever the NHL does next season.
Now, it's a stretch, of course. But what if the NHL players were in the WHA or a new league?
Which would people watch? An NHL full of scrubs?
Or another league filled with the best players on earth.

WHich one would ESPN rather air? Iginla, LeCavallier et al in a new league? Or Rob Ray and Lonny Bohonos for the Ottawa Senators?

We had the WHA before. If they could manage to get off the ground again, great for them, but even with the labour unrest in the NHL, I don't see it as much of a threat. They'll play in other markets, other arenas, and they won't have the same finances at their disposal as the NHL. So therefore they won't have ALL the NHL players. Now presumably, after they get off the ground, maybe they could raise the proposed $5M salary cap or whatever. But that still doesn't really compare to a $40M cap.

I just don't see "another league filled with the best players on earth" within the realm of possibility. At most, you'd get something not much different than we have right now... some of the best players scattered around in Russia, Scandanavia, and Eastern Europe, maybe a few veterans with local connections playing in minor pro leagues, a handful jumping to some kind of WHA-startup if that gets off the ground, and maybe some kind of boring NHLPA 3-ring circus outfit.

There would be no clearcut elite league like the NHL. So by dint of owning the biggest markets, the NHL would grow itself back, with or without having ALL of the best players in the world. Crosby and Kessel and those kids have no reason to turn down millions from the NHL to play in some other league for peanuts. Sooner or later the NHL will corner the market again, and in the meantime, they can attract enough talented players to ice a product that's at least as good as the other scattered leagues.

I mean, did people in Sweden go around saying "ya know, the Eliteserien is not the best hockey in the world and does not have ALL the best players in the world, so we'll just stop watching it and shut the league down"? Etc etc in all the other countries. Of course not! Where there are hockey fans, the teams will be supported. They don't have to be the absolute best.

I'm not looking forward exactly to that kind of meltdown, because ideally a settlement would be better, but if it comes to it, I'm not the least bit worried. If I'm an owner in a decent market, I'm similarly not worried. I really enjoy the AHL game right now, and I can even sit through 60 minutes of the St. Mike's Majors, (which may be the ultimate test this year), so I'm certain I'd have no trouble at all watching borderline NHL talents like Bohonos or Petrov or Rob Ray or whoever playing for the Habs. No problem whatsoever. I know it wouldn't work like that for everybody, but I think it would work for enough people. If it came to that.

 

[eye]

Whether it's the WHA or PA driven league, both will have a very low salary cap - cost certainty system in place. The WHA was to have a 15 million cap if they got started up last year. The biggest obstacles to overcome is finding owners, suitable arenas and enough fans to forgive players for allowing the NHL's demise to occur. I think the last point being the hardest to overcome.

I can see Goodenow counting on a new league or the WHA to save his """!!

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Someone suggests Goodenow may be remembered for failing... etc etc, and you suggest Bettman is at fault for ... etc etc...

I'm not questioning the validity of your points, rather that I'm confused by your inablity to grasp how others may see things in another light. Insulting the poster for exactly the same kind of post you followed with... well, seems ironic to me.

I think a majority of people who follow hockey think Goodenow is the one that is screwing up, not Bettman. Goodenow is making unrealistic demands when one considers the state of the game today. You can blame Bettman all you want, but it hardly makes it true.

20 years from now, people will hardly remember Goodenow's name.
I'm not blaming this on Bettman (not in this thread anyway).
I'm not stupid enough to suggest this about 1 person's ego. (Or even two people's ego)
This is about greed. On both sides.
My point is about responsibility.
Regardless of how you feel about Goodenow, this armegeddon, as it has been called, has happened on Bettman's watch

 

[Beatnik]

I don't understand the people who blame Goodenow and saying that the players are'nt important. If it was true there would be no problems.

The players would be paid almost nothing because the owner would have no reason to pay them well. If the owner gives those type of contract, it's because they know it brings people into the buildings.

Also those who don't care about the players should be able to appreciate any league as much as the NHL so they have no reason to hate Goodenow.

 

[Blind Gardien]

I don't understand the people who blame Goodenow and saying that the players are'nt important. If it was true there would be no problems.

The players would be paid almost nothing because the owner would have no reason to pay them well.

It's not a binary equation. The alternative to players being "1" is not that they are "0". If the 2004 NHL represents the "1" of best players in the world, then the alternative of replacement players is perhaps still a nice "0.9". They would perform a little bit below the NHL players, they might get paid significantly less, but they'd still put on a pretty good show, and if you dropped the ticket prices to "0.5", you'd probably still get a good turnout.

 

[Beatnik]

It's not a binary equation. The alternative to players being "1" is not that they are "0". If the 2004 NHL represents the "1" of best players in the world, then the alternative of replacement players is perhaps still a nice "0.9". They would perform a little bit below the NHL players, they might get paid significantly less, but they'd still put on a pretty good show, and if you dropped the ticket prices to "0.5", you'd probably still get a good turnout.

It's true but the day a new league would get the "1" players the ".9" league would lost 99% of their fans. Think of the WHA, XFL, IHL etc. The advantage of the owner is mostly the monopoly over the best buidings. If the owners stick to their stupid offer we could see a war between 2 leagues that would hurt NA hockey incredibely.

 

[AM]

ahhh...

I don't understand the people who blame Goodenow and saying that the players are'nt important. If it was true there would be no problems.

The players would be paid almost nothing because the owner would have no reason to pay them well. If the owner gives those type of contract, it's because they know it brings people into the buildings.

Also those who don't care about the players should be able to appreciate any league as much as the NHL so they have no reason to hate Goodenow.

If they dont care about the name of players, the implication is that they cheer for their team.

 

[Blind Gardien]

It's true but the day a new league would get the "1" players the ".9" league would lost 99% of their fans. Think of the WHA, XFL, IHL etc. The advantage of the owner is mostly the monopoly over the best buidings. If the owners stick to their stupid offer we could see a war between 2 leagues that would hurt NA hockey incredibely.

Why would a new league get the "1" players, though? They can't pay them half as much as the NHL could. The players are pretty stubborn, but they aren't going to take a 50% or more pay cut just to prove their point. At least, not many of them will.

 

[Blueshirt13]

If ultimately the game is the product, why do any of you care that there is a lockout? Go to junior games and enjoy the product and don't even bother posting that there is a lockout in the NHL. If the product is equal, no matter who is in the jersey, then you wouldn't be posting and you would be at an OHL game.

If the players are not PART of what the product is, why haven't the owners already brought in replacement players? If fans solely cheer for the symbol on the front of the jersey, then why hasn't the league already brought in replacement players? Is the league run by a bunch of idiots that have not realized what so many posters on these boards know as a fact that the arenas would be just as crowded with replacement players?

Why then did a number of owners make it a priority to sign their prospects and players to AHL contracts? If these individual players were not part of the product, then owners should not have signed them to AHL deals because it does not matter whose name is on the back of their jerseys. And by not signing them, the owners would have been making a statement to the players that there would be repercussions for the inability of the players to come to terms with the league.

In the end, good old Bettman and Goodenow will both go down in history as the two individuals who successfully prevented an entire sports season. I do think Bettman's name will be spoken more about it simply because he has been more visible over the past 10 years for hockey than Goodenow has.

 

[Beatnik]

Why would a new league get the "1" players, though? They can't pay them half as much as the NHL could. The players are pretty stubborn, but they aren't going to take a 50% or more pay cut just to prove their point. At least, not many of them will.

The new league would have to be created by the players. They could "kill" the NHL in a years or 2 and then get the buildings and trademark. After that the league could come back to a free market with a good system of revenu sharing.

I know it would hurt everyone but it may be the only solution to the owners stupidity. We are at the moment where both side should make ultimate sacrifices. The owner's have'nt move an inch since the beginning and their initial offer was absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

The new league would have to be created by the players. They could "kill" the NHL in a years or 2 and then get the buildings and trademark. After that the league could come back to a free market with a good system of revenu sharing.

Wow. You really don't have a clue, do you. Where do the players play? Where do they get the capital to start up this fabled enterprise? How do they managed to make this fantasyland of yours work? Wasn't the players' crudade through Europe enough for you? They don't have the drawing power they think they do. They will never generate enough revenues to compete. They are not as big a cog as their pathetic massive egos like to lead them to believe they are. They are nothing without the jersey (how many players get sponsorship deals without them wearing their jersey?). You say that the players just have to survive for two years. The players would be out of business in two years. Their savings would be done in two years. How are the players going to manage to outlast billionaires who own the buildings and the product? You're dreaming. The WHA had major backing and it failed miserably. The players wouldn't last a season.

I know it would hurt everyone but it may be the only solution to the owners stupidity. We are at the moment where both side should make ultimate sacrifices. The owner's have'nt move an inch since the beginning and their initial offer was absolutely ridiculous.

Owner's stupidity? How do you think they became owners? The majority of them are smart businessmen. The minority (seven or eight that drove the league to where it is) are the ones that the league is doing to shield itself from. The players are onbiously the stupid ones. They're willing to piss away $2.4 billion (this year and next) in salary to stand by their ideals? That's money they will NEVER recoup. It doesn't matter of they start their own league (a guaranteed money loser in the first three to five years) the players will never make that money back. They will never reach the point where they have the market the NHL does.

BTW... here's a question for you. Say the players start their own league. Do they start 30 teams? No. They'll start maybe six or eight teams, as that's how many buildings are available that could sustain their salary demands. Great, that's 1/5 to 1/4 of the players that get jobs. Where do the other players go? To the NHL, that's where. And who replaces the 1/5 to 1/4 of the players? Great young prospects who will make more in the NHL than the NHLPA could ever afford.

Yeah, that's a real well thought out plan. I hope the players are stupid enough t try that and invest several hundred million dollars of their own money into it. It will be fun to watch them come crawling back on their knees, flat broke, when their little enterprise fails.

 

[SENSible1*]

The new league would have to be created by the players. They could "kill" the NHL in a years or 2 and then get the buildings and trademark. After that the league could come back to a free market with a good system of revenu sharing.

I know it would hurt everyone but it may be the only solution to the owners stupidity. We are at the moment where both side should make ultimate sacrifices. The owner's have'nt move an inch since the beginning and their initial offer was absolutely ridiculous.

Do you seriously believe this scenario is even remotely realistic?

 

[djhn579]

The new league would have to be created by the players. They could "kill" the NHL in a years or 2 and then get the buildings and trademark. After that the league could come back to a free market with a good system of revenu sharing.

I know it would hurt everyone but it may be the only solution to the owners stupidity. We are at the moment where both side should make ultimate sacrifices. The owner's have'nt move an inch since the beginning and their initial offer was absolutely ridiculous.

Remember the OSHL (Original Six Hockey League)? That was a league started up by the players, and they couldn't even sell that in Canada. That league died in a matter of months.

 

[Bicycle Repairman]

Remember the OSHL (Original Six Hockey League)? That was a league started up by the players, and they couldn't even sell that in Canada. That league died in a matter of months.

The OSHL (Original Stars BTW) was not a players-initiated circuit. It was founded and funded by independent entrepreneurs,

 

[Bicycle Repairman]

Hmm, but if there was no NHL, then "the best league of professional hockey" would be... ?

The one which has the best replacement players! I would presume the NHL owners are rich enough to lure the "cream of the crop" from the cast of European league castaways and minor pro leagues. Therefore, a replacement-player NHL would once again be "the best league of professional hockey". At least, on this side of the ocean.

Are you sure about that? US Labor Law prevented Foreign Nationals from being signed as replacement players during the MLB Strike in 1994. There's similar laws in Canada.

AHL and ECHL players belong to the PHPA (Professional Hockey Players Association). They have a Right of Refusal to report for strike-breaking duties. Labor law is also quite specific regarding management coercion/discrimination.

 

[Bicycle Repairman]

May I ask you where you bought your magic ball?

Apparently this poster thinks he can see into the future and easily assumes that the "people would quickly lose interest" in replacement players.

Until you have any proof, your theory is just as valid as my flying-pigs theory.

It's borne out by the example of scores of businesses who suffered long-term damage to the bottom-line by the buying public when they persued a stigmatic policy of scab labor.