Will Goodenow go down in sports history as the smartest fool of all time?

[eye]

If there is such a thing as outsmarting yourself then Goodenow fits that description. Mr. Bob has a few days left to redeem himself but the odds are stacked up against him. Will Bob Goodenow be known as the fool that brought down hockey or as a hero that was smart enough to compromise his hard stance for the sake of the game and the players he is supposed to be representing?

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[Blind Gardien]

If there is such a thing as outsmarting yourself then Goodenow fits that description. Mr. Bob has a few days left to redeem himself but the odds are stacked up against him. Will Bob Goodenow be known as the fool that brought down hockey or as a hero that was smart enough to compromise his hard stance for the sake of the game and the players he is supposed to be representing?

He's probably in a lose-lose situation, right along with the players. Well, sure, if he gives in some of us will recognise his honourable sacrifice, but I don't suppose his union or the sporting world at large will be all that happy. We all heard the criticisms from outside the game when he offered the 24% rollback. He'll get lambasted if he accepts anything like the owners are asking for. And he'll similarly get lambasted if he lets the league blow itself up. Tough spot.

 

[Dave is a killer]

10 days from the word that begins with i and ends with e ... because once the season is cancelled without another proposal from the PA ... the union is done

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

He's probably in a lose-lose situation, right along with the players. Well, sure, if he gives in some of us will recognise his honourable sacrifice, but I don't suppose his union or the sporting world at large will be all that happy. We all heard the criticisms from outside the game when he offered the 24% rollback. He'll get lambasted if he accepts anything like the owners are asking for. And he'll similarly get lambasted if he lets the league blow itself up. Tough spot.

It hardly matters.
Eye's posts are all about ego and other ridiculous things.
He seems to think I'm a personal friend of the Goodenow family and that players, agents and PA employees read these boards and respond to his posts.

The real questions are these:

1) Will Gary Bettman be the first commissioner to ever preside over a full season lost to a labor stoppage?
The answer here, unfortunately, may be yes.
A good commissioner would have never let it get to this point. But Bettman didn't have the spine to start working when the last CBA expired.

2) The bigger question won't be answered for years perhaps: Did Bettman preside over the ruin of the NHL?
Blame the owners, players, agents, fans, tv execs. Blame whoever you want. But Bettman is the commissioner.

 

[shveik]

If there is such a thing as outsmarting yourself then Goodenow fits that description. Mr. Bob has a few days left to redeem himself but the odds are stacked up against him. Will Bob Goodenow be known as the fool that brought down hockey or as a hero that was smart enough to compromise his hard stance for the sake of the game and the players he is supposed to be representing?

If the NHL, let alone hockey, is brought down by one fool, the rest of the hockey execs should be declared certified morons. That said, being the scapegoat in the eyes of the gullible fans right now is quite far from the final history judgement.

 

[quat]

It hardly matters.
Eye's posts are all about ego and other ridiculous things.
He seems to think I'm a personal friend of the Goodenow family and that players, agents and PA employees read these boards and respond to his posts.

The real questions are these:

1) Will Gary Bettman be the first commissioner to ever preside over a full season lost to a labor stoppage?
The answer here, unfortunately, may be yes.
A good commissioner would have never let it get to this point. But Bettman didn't have the spine to start working when the last CBA expired.

2) The bigger question won't be answered for years perhaps: Did Bettman preside over the ruin of the NHL?
Blame the owners, players, agents, fans, tv execs. Blame whoever you want. But Bettman is the commissioner.

I'm guessing you may want to spend a bit more time thinking after serving up a dis...

 

[misterjaggers]

He's probably in a lose-lose situation, right along with the players. Well, sure, if he gives in some of us will recognise his honourable sacrifice, but I don't suppose his union or the sporting world at large will be all that happy. We all heard the criticisms from outside the game when he offered the 24% rollback. He'll get lambasted if he accepts anything like the owners are asking for. And he'll similarly get lambasted if he lets the league blow itself up. Tough spot.

You're absolutely correct. In his various pronouncements, Goodenow left no room for compromise on the salary cap issue. He'll be eating crow soon or he'll preside over the marginalization of the NHLPA.

 

[Motown Beatdown]

You're absolutely correct. In his various pronouncements, Goodenow left no room for compromise on the salary cap issue. He'll be eating crow soon or he'll preside over the marginalization of the NHLPA.

You can say the exact same thing about Bettman who wont discuss a luxury tax or a NBA style soft cap. They both painted themselves in a corner and left the fans out in the cold. Billionaires and Millionaires fighting over money.

 

[shakes]

I'm guessing you may want to spend a bit more time thinking after serving up a dis...

Yeh, because an intelligent answer like his is never preferable right?

 

[goteam]

IMO I think that Trevor Linden will only be remembered for his job as the NHLPA President when his career is over, and not for what he did on the ice. In 10, 15, 20 years from now people will ask in trivia games the question: "Who was Trevor Linden?" - Answer: "The guy who helped Bettman and Goodenow kill the 2004-05 season (and maybe 05-06 too)."

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

I'm guessing you may want to spend a bit more time thinking after serving up a dis...

A dis?

Anyway, I think my points are legit.

No matter how you feel about Goodenow, this entire thing is ultimately on Bettman's watch, as commissioner.
If you think this lockout is justified, then you've got to be mighty angry that he, as commissioner, allowed the league to get to this point.
He had prior CBAs to work with, and obviously he failed.

 

[eye]

A dis?

Anyway, I think my points are legit.

No matter how you feel about Goodenow, this entire thing is ultimately on Bettman's watch, as commissioner.
If you think this lockout is justified, then you've got to be mighty angry that he, as commissioner, allowed the league to get to this point.
He had prior CBAs to work with, and obviously he failed.

You and your 3 other pro NHLPA supporters are sounding desperate and at a loss for words to support your position - just like Bob.

It's a well known and very publicized fact that Bettman and Daley have been trying for the past 5 years to open negotiations pleading with the PA and admitting that the league was in trouble.

Several new owners and there are 24 of them in the past dozen years were promised some form of cost certainty and the owners are going to make sure Bettman keeps his word. It's the PA that failed to negotiate within an acceptable framework that has led to this work stoppage.

And before you spout off again, most of us pro owner - pro Bettman supporters acknowledge that players didn't cause the current problems of the league. You can blame agents for negotiating one GM against the other and using loopholes in past CBA's and giving out poor advice to their players, Goodenow for his confidential computer collusion program and unwillingness to help repair a league in need of repair, short sighted but overly competitive GM's/Owners and overly demanding fans as well as stupid fans that cough up over $100 sometimes $200 to buy tickets to watch what was becoming a boring spectacle. The game is broken, Bettman is trying to fix it for the longterm benefit of the game while Goodenow sticks his head in the sand and insists that owners should just make better business decisions and refuses to budge on an issue that is good enough for other pro sports but not for Bob. Most reasonable and knowledgable fans recognize that fact. Of course we know where that leaves NONewsguyone - don't we?

And yes - make no mistake about this. A big reason Bob won't budge is because of his Pacific Ocean sized ego. Somewhere in his intelligent mind he knows he has to cave and be more reasonable but his pride won't allow him to. From all accounts = It's a personality trait that goes back a long way with him.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

snipped, thankfully[/B]

Listen eye.

Look at the questions you asked.
Look at the questions I asked.

In the long run, in the big picture, which one's are people going to be asking, 10-15 years from now.,

 

[eye]

Listen eye.

Look at the questions you asked.
Look at the questions I asked.

In the long run, in the big picture, which one's are people going to be asking, 10-15 years from now.,

I have offered countless reasons and countless proposals while you just continue to sound like the narrow minded Bob Goodenow. I am open minded and if you do ever come up with some interesting or even relevent arguements I might still take you seriously some day!

I don't think you actually take the time to sit down and think you way through things before you draw your conclusions. If you want to really become newsguyone then you had better work at that.

 

[chara]

By 2006-07, there's pretty much no NHLPA, with only 99 players still under contract.

Goodenow surely must realize that its this year or bust. Same time next year and the owners will dig in even digger, knowing they'll be virtually free of their past mistakes. The owners set the present system and they mucked it up. But ultimately its their businesses and the players are their employees and if they should choose to set a new system that's their perogative. Whether it works or not, that's their business and not the players'.

 

[MarkZackKarl]

.

Luckily for anyone with a brain it is evident that the players being employees in this situation is entirely unique since they are both the labour and the product. Thus, without them, the NHL owners have no product to sell, and no revenue coming in. It is stupid to generalize the players and the owners as the 'boss' and the 'employee' since its not accurate at all.

The overwhelming ignorance continues.

 

[Kaiped Krusader]

The overwhelming ignorance continues.

As do the personal attacks coming from NHLPA supporters ...

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

Luckily for anyone with a brain it is evident that the players being employees in this situation is entirely unique since they are both the labour and the product. Thus, without them, the NHL owners have no product to sell, and no revenue coming in. It is stupid to generalize the players and the owners as the 'boss' and the 'employee' since its not accurate at all.

The overwhelming ignorance continues.

The only overwhelming ignorance in regards to this topic is displayed every time you post. The players are not the product, the clubs are. The players are nothing but ingredients in the recipe that is the club. As we have seen, a coach or GM can be as important, or more important, than any one player, so the players being the product is false bravado by someone who holds players on too high a pedistle.

You could put faceless zombies in jerseys and have them skate around and you would still have people flocking to the rink in the true hockey markets. Its the jersey that makes the players a star, not just their ability. There are lots of players that are stars in one city and not in others because of the club and the connection they have with the club and the city. As long as the players in the jersey perform to the expectations of the fans, no matter how high or how low, the fans will view the players as stars.

Junior hockey is proof. The club is what matters. You have complete turnover in talent every four years and still people flock to the games. If people actually looked they would see a similar pattern in the NHL as well. Very seldom does a team have the same lineup one year as it did four years prior. There may be two or three hold overs, but for most teams the turn over is incredible. Yet the fans still come flocking out. Why? The product is the players, right? So when a player leaves should the fans stop going to the games? They don't. They follow the team. They follow the organization. They follow the jersey. The players are secondary and are easily replaced. The fans will make their own stars once these "irreplacable darlings" are gone. The jersey is what matters, not those that wear it.

 

[MarkZackKarl]

Are you really that irrational? Holy crap. 'The players aren't the product'?

Ok, that shows how much understanding of the issue you have. Please refrain from posting things that contradict logic.

 

[CalgaryThrasher]

Are you really that irrational? Holy crap. 'The players aren't the product'?

Ok, that shows how much understanding of the issue you have. Please refrain from posting things that contradict logic.

People cheer for their team, their franchise, not individual players.

 

[MarkZackKarl]

.

People cheer for their team BECAUSE of the players.

That is the point. Without the players, they dont have a team to cheer for. The players that make up the team are the product that they cheer for. They generate the revenues.

The reason people are fans of the NHL is because it houses incredible hockey talent, the best in the world. Thats why people cheer for their team.

Without the best talent in the world, the NHL is pretty limited in its options. You really think attendance isn't correlated to success and the players on the team in every market outside of Toronto and New York?

Moreover, who said anything about cheering for individual players? I am talkign about the players as a whole. They cheer for the ASSEMBLY of great HOCKEY TALENT.

If the players didnt matter, why wouldnt the NHL just pay players a few thousand a game? If the fans cheered for the team and franchise only then the NHL could pass off any players as their product and get great attendance because the fans are their to cheer on their franchise. Of course this is illogical. Have a nice day.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

It's a well known and very publicized fact that Bettman and Daley have been trying for the past 5 years to open negotiations pleading with the PA and admitting that the league was in trouble. .

and if it was reversed and it was the PA pleading with the league because they were getting screwed on the CBA, would the owners open negotiations to drastically reduce their rightfully negotiated leverages ?

Brian Burke was asked this very question on his radio show and his answer was a definative "no chance".

DR

 

[tantalum]

Are you really that irrational? Holy crap. 'The players aren't the product'?

Ok, that shows how much understanding of the issue you have. Please refrain from posting things that contradict logic.

Sure players are part of the product but they are not the entire product (calling it NHL hockey does have considerable weight and the bigger money means the talent will be drawn to it) and does it have to be THESE players? (1) they aren't the only 700 skilled hockey players in the world; (2) whether the NHLPA wants to believe it or not I'd wager that a good majority of the young players with only a couple of years under there belts and the lesser players would cross a picket line pretty damn quick to a league with a minimum salary or 350k and average salary above $1.3 mil. They don't have the education for a high paying career, they have a limited career length and it will be vastly more than they could make in Europe in most cases; (3) more European players would come over to fill some of the void because of the bigger money; (4) give it 3-5 years and much of the top-end talent that continues to sit having made all their money anyways will have been replaced with the natural turnover to younger stars that constantly happens. Just because the older stars are gone doesn't mean talent and development ceases. It just means there will be a couple years worth of lag time needed to replace that talent...and personally I'd love to see the Jeff Carter's, Dion Phaneuf's etc.. of the world have the timeline moved up by a year or so. In some cases you may see guys who were written off given a chance to shine...there are other Martin St. Louis' out there.

 

[SENSible1*]

Are you really that irrational? Holy crap. 'The players aren't the product'?

Ok, that shows how much understanding of the issue you have. Please refrain from posting things that contradict logic.

Typical comeback when someone has blown your theory out of the water.

THIS group of 700+ NHLPA members are not the product. They can and will be replaced, no matter how this labour disput ends.

 

[MarkZackKarl]

So if the players arent the product, you are saying that revenues are the same regardless of what players are on the teams then, right?

Nice job.