Post-Game Talk: Wild

[norrisnick]

No, but by putting the subject into binary terms, you're effectively doing the same thing lol. It's like when someone makes a suggestion to change the game which decreases physicality even just a smidge and then those people are accused of trying to sneakily and incrementally remove hitting from the game altogether. It's not a binary thing. I'd argue there's room for nuance.

I want hitting in the game too, but I also want to see an attempt to curb traumatic brain injuries. I'd like something in between "no hitting" and a bunch of guys having their brains completely scrambled for the rest of their lives, resulting in life-long trauma, physical suffering, and suicidal thoughts, and I think that's within the realm of possibility.

You have to remember that there are many people that watch auto-racing hoping for an explosive crash. That binge injury "highlight" clips on youtube. That would love nothing more than a return of actual kill or be killed gladiatorial combat.

And they reproduce...

 

[jaster]

Well mainly I was giving full context of the rule. You quoted only a portion that made it seem like the hit was illegal by NHL rules. It is not.

Second, it's not binary. I enjoy watching hockey, but I don't enjoy seeing guys get concussed. I think the league is much too soft on non-hockey plays that involve head contact, like crosschecks and elbows. And that they should punish more severely on hits involving head contact where the hitter used terrible judgment and execution in throwing a hit that did not involve solid contact to the player's body.

Hits like Reaves on Hronek are much trickier. And the optics are made worse because Reaves is a talentless goon. He's a relic.

Reaves is already circling around to go after Hronek (again, he's a goon so he has little to no responsibility that involves the puck). If Hronek sees the hit coming he likely braces for impact and eliminates or reduces any head contact, even if Reaves doesn't do anything different.

It's a guy who's 6'2" 225 lbs colliding with a guy who's 6' and 190 lbs at NHL game speed. It's a massive collision. To me it's reasonable to draw a line in the sand that the hitter has to be making solid contact to a player's body. But there's so many hits that could result in head contact because of what the guy being hit is doing. It makes suspending for it so random because the hitter could throw the exact same hit with wildly different results depending on what the other guy does.

However If you're talking about a player like Reaves place in the league, that's another discussion where we'd likely see eye to eye on most of it.

I quoted the rule to see what kind of reactions there would be. You'll notice I didn't offer an opinion. Apologies for not quoting the whole rule, but it doesn't change what is ultimately my underlying point.

You're absolutely right it's not binary, and that's what I like to get at in these discussions. We all decide what we think should be acceptable. Because of the speed and physicality of hockey, there will always be some head injuries. Personally I accept that, both in the NHL and when I put my skates on twice a week in men's league. I think everyone accepts at least that much. But there are already rules about what you can and can't do, and I think the NHL could stand to further minimize traumatic brain injuries.

I think we largely agree. We agree on Reaves in general. I think where we might diverge is in deciding how much credit to give Reaves in terms of that hit and what he was trying to accomplish, and what he actually did accomplish. If it were almost any other player, I'd agree much more with the idea that NHL speed is in play here, and the guy committed to the hit before he realized what would likely happen. Reaves? He's been at this a long time. He, and a handful of other guys in the league, are very good at it. It's his bread and butter. I know his type from my younger, more competitive days. I think he identified Hronek as a potential target, had himself in position to make the hit, saw Hronek then lost SA, and absolutely pounced on the opportunity to cream him, full commit. He made the decision to blow him up, because that's his game, and he was fine with letting the chips fall where they may (because he knew the chips would likely be on his side). And all that happened in his head in 1-2 seconds. Yes, the NHL is incredibly fast, but these guys process fast, especially the ones who have been at it for a long time.

 

[jaster]

This conversation thread proves those concerned with the bolded part are justified.

Of course it doesn't, how silly. What is it with making everything binary? You realize many people in the past have made suggestions to slightly minimize physicality in the NHL, and then those suggestions were committed to the rulebook, right? The league today isn't the same as 25 years ago. Like, if the idea is that any small changes are part of a slippery slope that will take hitting completely out of the game, then I'm sorry to inform you that we're already sliding down the slope and the pool of 'No Hitting' is rushing towards us. I guess you can relax and just let it happen then lol.

You have to remember that there are many people that watch auto-racing hoping for an explosive crash. That binge injury "highlight" clips on youtube. That would love nothing more than a return of actual kill or be killed gladiatorial combat.

And they reproduce...

Touche.

 

[jaster]

I seem to remember it taking nearly a full year before anyone on the Wings retaliated against Lemieux for that hit.

True, but that's why the Wings were losers at that point, and teams like Colorado didn't respect them. They were regularly accused of not being tough enough and not standing up for each other. A few things helped that team "turn the corner," and Fight Night at the Joe was one of them.

 

[sepster]

Of course it doesn't, how silly. What is it with making everything binary? You realize many people in the past have made suggestions to slightly minimize physicality in the NHL, and then those suggestions were committed to the rulebook, right? The league today isn't the same as 25 years ago. Like, if the idea is that any small changes are part of a slippery slope that will take hitting completely out of the game, then I'm sorry to inform you that we're already sliding down the slope and the pool of 'No Hitting' is rushing towards us. I guess you can relax and just let it happen then lol.

Again, you are spelling out the concern. You just happen to be OK with it, while I am not.

Yes, there have been incremental changes to the game and players are much more protected than they were even 10 years ago. A lot of it is good. But I don't know how you go beyond where we are now to try and eliminate a hit like the one Hronek took last night and not take most hitting out of the game.

 

[Mister Ed]

It was a super weird game. Started off ok, then the Hronek hit kept everyone on edge for a while, but there wasn't much happening. Seider got angry and the Wings played to not lose rather than to win.

 

[Ezekial]

I cannot believe... who was it, Jones? ...tried to say Reaves had no choice but to hit him like that.

Him and 10 million hfboards posters said it.

That's my problem though. I know it's a legal check and Hronek definitely f***ed up, but I do have a problem with the check. His shoulder drove directly into his head, as the first point of contact and sent it whipping like a pendulum to the ice. It wasn't a hit through the chest where he caught him in the head because he's tall, he drove his shoulder through his head.

But, at the same time I see how it can be a legal hit in the NHL. So like I said before I see a player taking advantage of a vulnerable player, which is more of an ethical thing than anything. Should you take advantage of a player like that because you can. I wouldn't, I'm also not a professional athlete.


Also, I'm sick of see people saying things like "skating with his head in front of him" - that's how everyone skates. You skate with your head in front of you with the puck.

 

[jaster]

Again, you are spelling out the concern. You just happen to be OK with it, while I am not.

Yes, there have been incremental changes to the game and players are much more protected than they were even 10 years ago. A lot of it is good. But I don't know how you go beyond where we are now to try and eliminate a hit like the one Hronek took last night and not take most hitting out of the game.

Ah, so that is the key piece in me understanding you here. For you, we're at the optimal point. Up to now, it wasn't a slippery slope because the league was getting to that optimal point. Now that they are there, anything beyond it is now potentially a slippery slope. I think there's some faulty logic baked into that line of reasoning, but now I get where you are coming from.

Get Ryan Reaves out of the game. That's it. That's how you eliminate last night's hit. No, you don't just kick him out of the league, you obviously can't do that. But you make it harder for guys like him. Short-term, when they do cross the line, you punish them severely enough that they feel it, unlike 99% of NHL suspensions that are nothingburgers for the players. Long-term, you weed them out. Most guys like him are already gone anyway, so just keep 'er movin.

And yes, other players are capable of making a similar hit. But they'll be fewer and far between. Again, it's a matter of minimizing traumatic brain injuries, not eliminating them completely. For the rest, you put up bigger deterrents, bigger fines and bigger suspensions for when the rules are broken.

 

[jaster]

Him and 10 million hfboards posters said it.

That's my problem though. I know it's a legal check and Hronek definitely f***ed up, but I do have a problem with the check. His shoulder drove directly into his head, as the first point of contact and sent it whipping like a pendulum to the ice. It wasn't a hit through the chest where he caught him in the head because he's tall, he drove his shoulder through his head.

But, at the same time I see how it can be a legal hit in the NHL. So like I said before I see a player taking advantage of a vulnerable player, which is more of an ethical thing than anything. Should you take advantage of a player like that because you can. I wouldn't, I'm also not a professional athlete.


Also, I'm sick of see people saying things like "skating with his head in front of him" - that's how everyone skates. You literally always skate like that with the puck.

Lol, you just made me imagine an NHL skater skating straight up, with the puck, with his head completely up.... made me think of some old, real bad computer rendering of a hockey player made by someone who doesn't watch the game.

But yes, I agree with this post.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Also, I'm sick of see people saying things like "skating with his head in front of him" - that's how everyone skates. You literally always skate with your head in front of you with the puck.

That's a great point and to add to it: Players skate hunched over.
I say this because there's always the argument "well he wouldn't have hit him in the head if he wasn't leaning over." But that's just how skating works. When one guy is skating, and the guy hitting him stands up straight, the skating guy's head is going to be at shoulder height. Even if everyone in the league is the same height.

I don't really know exactly what to do about that, but it should be acknowledged. A guy doesn't have to leap to hit someone in the head. He just has to stand up straight and that's what naturally happens.

 

[sepster]

Ah, so that is the key piece in me understanding you here. For you, we're at the optimal point. Up to now, it wasn't a slippery slope because the league was getting to that optimal point. Now that they are there, anything beyond it is now potentially a slippery slope. I think there's some faulty logic baked into that line of reasoning, but now I get where you are coming from.

Get Ryan Reaves out of the game. That's it. That's how you eliminate last night's hit. No, you don't just kick him out of the league, you obviously can't do that. But you make it harder for guys like him. Short-term, when they do cross the line, you punish them severely enough that they feel it, unlike 99% of NHL suspensions that are nothingburgers for the players. Long-term, you weed them out. Most guys like him are already gone anyway, so just keep 'er movin.

And yes, other players are capable of making a similar hit. But they'll be fewer and far between. Again, it's a matter of minimizing traumatic brain injuries, not eliminating them completely. For the rest, you put up bigger deterrents, bigger fines and bigger suspensions for when the rules are broken.

I would clarify it as we have been on a slippery slope and I would like to get off it before the point of no return that is rapidly approaching.

 

[TheClap]

True, but that's why the Wings were losers at that point, and teams like Colorado didn't respect them. They were regularly accused of not being tough enough and not standing up for each other. A few things helped that team "turn the corner," and Fight Night at the Joe was one of them.

Not only are the Wings even bigger losers now, they aren't tough enough nor do they stand up for each other

 

[14ari13]

I cannot believe... who was it, Jones? ...tried to say Reaves had no choice but to hit him like that. He made it sound like Reaves was just minding his own business, managing a passing lane in the neutral zone, when Hronek skated into him as if he was the one who initiated the hit. Yeah, Hronek needs to keep his head up, but Reaves seized on an opportunity to head-hunt. You're right, Reaves was already moving in Hronek's direction when Hronek then made himself even more vulnerable. I have no doubt that when Reaves realized he had a chance to absolutely obliterate the guy like an IED in Iraq, he was as happy as a kid on Christmas morning. That's who he his. He'd knock out of the game all 18 opposition skaters if he could.

I did very much enjoy hockey back in the day, when every team had a Reaves. When asymmetrical warfare wasn't as much of a thing. Now, guys like Reaves are extra problematic because not every team has one, so they can't always be kept in check. They get to murder a guy with an illegal hit (I don't consider it dirty though), easily cast aside a challenger to fight, and win the game with basically no consequences. The response from the Wings last night should have been to run their guys. And they kinda did. Credit to Perron and Seider for making some hits. I wish they would have been harder. Wings don't have a fighter (credit to Chiarot for trying though) and they no longer have a PP, so run guys. What's the worst that can happen? Someone gets suspended? Who cares? The players sure don't, and it's not like this roster can get much worse.

Reaves is a piece of s...
You don't level a guy and celebrate. He didn't celebrate straight after the hit, but he did later.
Raymond should level Zucarello and Seider should Kapritsov.

 

[Luceni]

that reaves hit was perfectly legal and within the rules. Regardless of that fact, if a hit like that happens to my teammate, i want this guy out. there has to be some revenge. hockey is a violent sport and if someone takes out my teammate like that i l'm gonna make sure that this guy regrets the rest of ice time he gets. and thats just one of the pieces the wings are missing right now: standing up for each other even if that means that the game is going to be nasty

that being said: the hit is hroneks foulth. gotta keep your head up in that situation.

 

[tabness]

Reaves showboating after the fight bothered me more than the hit (bad result but that's on Hronek too)

Hope someone takes a suspension for the team the next time they play that joker but probably a pipedream

 

[SoupGuru]

Us: fighting after a clean hit is stupid

Also us: why didn't someone fight that guy after a clean hit?!

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

If I was playing on a team decimated by injuries that hasn't finished out of the bottom 5 in five years I wouldn't go out of my way to get my dome smashed in by some talentless goon either.

Hronek needs to keep his eyes on the play, his teammates should tell him if someone is coming up behind him.

 

[14ari13]

Us: fighting after a clean hit is stupid

Also us: why didn't someone fight that guy after a clean hit?!

I don't know. It seems like many posters think that our players should hit their stars. I for one do not expect nor demand anyone to fight after a clean hit, and the hit was as clean as they come.
We loved it when Kronwall did it. At least I did.
My favourite players are Scott Stevens and Kronwall. I was so glad when Seider said his favourite was Scott Stevens.
I just like much better how Konstatinov and Shanahan play the game than how Lidstrom, Yzerman and Fedorov do, or used to play.

If I was playing on a team decimated by injuries that hasn't finished out of the bottom 5 in five years I wouldn't go out of my way to get my dome smashed in by some talentless goon either.

Hronek needs to keep his eyes on the play, his teammates should tell him if someone is coming up behind him.

Why was he looking behind for so long anyway? Did he have a chance to bend down or turn aside?

 

[Luceni]

Us: fighting after a clean hit is stupid

Also us: why didn't someone fight that guy after a clean hit?!

it doesn't matter if the hit was clean or not. The result of the hit was that one of our players got injured. The reaves guy has to pay for that the rest of the game.

if someone injures my teammate i want revenge in a violent sport like ice hockey.

 

[heyfolks]

What really bother me after the thit and the fight was the lack of response form the Wings. Soderblom thinks he'll make it as a tall, very poor version on Hank. The cavemen, Sunquist, is like Homer he absorbs hits, doesn't give any. Ras rubs people out and gets up after a hit.

Hagg the Horrible is the only one who would response. Smith may if he were up, but ihis only ability to in this area is to drop the mitts, and Reaves would destroy him.

In short, this team didn't respond. They have gotten bigger, but not tougher.

As for the hit, 100% legal. Get your head up. (Best hit in the League this season. Open ice, head down, I mean rocked him. Elbow down..... head down, bent over. A real stupid play by Hronek. Stevens made a living with such hits.

Reaves Chariot wasn't a fight. Had been not intentionally or accidentally fallen he would have been demolished by Reaves. Showboating afterwards... meh. zero issue with it.

Reaves fighting - hit up Youtube and watch his fights. 1) he doesn't lose much. 2) he's a right hand piston only fighter. 3) He use his left to grabe the front of the jersey color in every fight. If that doesn't happen, it's a fight he'll "lose." <meaning a draw. Up front, I know this will sound ridiculous. If you know you are going to fight, why not switch into a very tight jersey that can't be grabbed? Coe out like an O lineman. hahahaha. That or a neck or guard or turtleneck jersey.... How about this.... a micro tear so that when grabbed, it rips. and bingo your hands are free.

Don't get me wrong, they all grab the jersey. Chara was this judo jersey grabber. The only one I ever saw :judo throw" him to a win was Stoner and by win I mean get him on the ground so he doesn't punch you into tomorrow. Watch his fight with Shelley. Hilarious in how he salt shaker ed him.




Rule 46.13 (Jerseys) states:A player who engages in a fight and whose jersey is removed (completely off his torso), other than through the actions of his opponent in the altercation or through the actions of the Linesman, shall be assessed a game misconduct penalty.


Reaves was 100% within the rules. Wish the Wings had a player like that, but they are dinosaurs. He has enough talent to be useful outside of fighting..... 117 points in 777 games and he's only a minus 31

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I bring this up about some of the older fights, they could play. rPobert was lost to drugs and " duty" but they guy had 2 20 goal seasons

 

[pz29]

that reaves hit was perfectly legal and within the rules. Regardless of that fact, if a hit like that happens to my teammate, i want this guy out. there has to be some revenge. hockey is a violent sport and if someone takes out my teammate like that i l'm gonna make sure that this guy regrets the rest of ice time he gets. and thats just one of the pieces the wings are missing right now: standing up for each other even if that means that the game is going to be nasty

that being said: the hit is hroneks foulth. gotta keep your head up in that situation.

Can someone explain the difference between this hit and the "He got Kronwalled" one a few years back, for which Kronwall got the penalty which cost us the series? I am not saying that this hit is not legal, but then that other one was also legal.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Can someone explain the difference between this hit and the "He got Kronwalled" one a few years back, for which Kronwall got the penalty which cost us the series? I am not saying that this hit is not legal, but then that other one was also legal.

Kronwall's hits were textbook borderline but legal. He got penalized because he got a reputation and his name became a verb.

 

[brett89]

the only problem I have with the hit is the shoulder follow through to his face. I understand hronek put himself there but I think this rule needs to be more like a high stick penalty. most high stick penalties are unintentional. I don't think he hit him in the face intentionally but I don't think he avoided it or held back any either. could've seriously injured our best defensemen