Proposal: Wild leafs.

[howkie]

I love spurgeon a ton, but marner's got so much more control left that that's not really a fair deal.

dumba-Zaitsev is a fair enough swap I guess. but kind of a waste of time for both parties.

I know Nedereiter-Marner is a fair enough swap I guess, but kind of a waste of time for both parties.

 

[connormcmuffin]

So Leafs get older for two defensemen that never moved the needle on a good team?

Not trading Marner's ceiling for two defensemen that are just above average at their ceiling.

 

[Digitalbooya]

dumba is a negative possession player in middling matchup usage. Zaitsev is a slightly worse possession player in top matchup usage. dumba is better offensively, but Zaitsev is significantly cheaper

comparing dumba to Marner is just dumba.

CF% and QoC are really making their way through leaf country. Sorry Dumba has a better player in front of him. Sorry Bruce Boudreau’s system isn’t built on shooting from everywhere, but rather trying to get high danger shots.

You’re right, Zaitsev is totally equal to Dumba, my mistake

 

[Digitalbooya]

So Leafs get older for two defensemen that never moved the needle on a good team?

Not trading Marner's ceiling for two defensemen that are just above average at their ceiling.

Minnesota’s problem isn’t their defensemen. It’s the disappearing forwards in the playoffs.

 

[LeafGrief]

CF% and QoC are really making their way through leaf country. Sorry Dumba has a better player in front of him. Sorry Bruce Boudreau’s system isn’t built on shooting from everywhere, but rather trying to get high danger shots.

You’re right, Zaitsev is totally equal to Dumba, my mistake

To be fair, CF% and TOIQoC% are two of the metrics that paint Spurgeon as being so damn good. TOIQoC in particular shows the enormous difference in quality between Spurgeon and Gardiner.

I completely disagree with Zeke's take on Dumba vs Zaitsev, but the stats aren't changing all the narratives in the Leafs favour.

 

[2Pair]

dumba is a negative possession player in middling matchup usage. Zaitsev is a slightly worse possession player in top matchup usage. dumba is better offensively, but Zaitsev is significantly cheaper

comparing dumba to Marner is just dumba.

Hey, Leaf fans, come get your boy.

 

[LeafGrief]

dumba is a negative possession player in middling matchup usage. Zaitsev is a slightly worse possession player in top matchup usage. dumba is better offensively, but Zaitsev is significantly cheaper

comparing dumba to Marner is just dumba.

Zaitsev's usage from this year would have been 5th on the Wild. Dumba's would have been 3rd on the Leafs. Zaitsev did face top usage as a rookie, but he did not this year. To say that he faces top matchups is disingenuous.

 

[Notsince67]

Relatively close doesn’t mean equal. In simple terms Marner is a 90 overall, Dumba is an 88 overall. And to the poster I quoted implying that Zaitsev is equal to Dumba, Zaitsev is like a 78 overall and is way overpriced for what he brings.

Marner has + value for being younger.
Dumba has + value for being a RHD.

The difference between Marner and Dumba isn’t some huge gap like it is with Dumba and Zaitsev.

Well I would agree to that.

 

[zeke]

Zaitsev's usage from this year would have been 5th on the Wild. Dumba's would have been 3rd on the Leafs. Zaitsev did face top usage as a rookie, but he did not this year. To say that he faces top matchups is disingenuous.

over the last 2yrs at ES:

Zaitsev: A- qoc, -2.2cfrel, -2.3xgfrel
Dumba: B qoc, -1.0cfrel, -4.1xgfrel

but you are right to point out that spurgeon is fricken awesome and I would love him on the leafs.

 

[LeafGrief]

over the last 2yrs at ES:

Zaitsev: A- qoc, -2.2cfrel, -2.3xgfrel
Dumba: B qoc, -1.0cfrel, -4.1xgfrel

but you are right to point out that spurgeon is fricken awesome and I would love him on the leafs.

Spurgeon is literally #1 on my wish list.

Dumba played harder competition than Zaitsev did this year. He went from extremely sheltered minutes last year to playing some very tough matchups. Seeing as he's a young developing player, it's not surprising that he has improved. I think Zaitsev is better than his numbers were this year, but Dumba is also much better than his numbers were last year.

 

[zeke]

Spurgeon is literally #1 on my wish list.

Dumba played harder competition than Zaitsev did this year. He went from extremely sheltered minutes last year to playing some very tough matchups. Seeing as he's a young developing player, it's not surprising that he has improved. I think Zaitsev is better than his numbers were this year, but Dumba is also much better than his numbers were last year.

ya, dumba had a better year than Zaitsev last year, though Zaitsev was quite good after he returned from injury.

I don't have a lot of faith in dumba ever graduating into being a good tough-competition dman, even though he can look good against 2nd tier opposition.....like gardiner. But you could be right that Dumba still has lots of upside left to tap.

 

[BearsofBeantown]

Who was Pittsburgh's stud D-man in 2017?

Please, we lost to your Bruins in 7 and then you lost in 5 because nobody outside your first line could score. In games 2-5, David Krejci was the only Bruin forward not named Marchand, Bergeron, or Pastrnak to score. It's hilarious that you would call us top heavy while you've got the most dominant 1st line in the league and ended up losing lost because of your depth. The Bruins let in 39 goals in 11 games, please don't bother lecturing us on how bad our defense is, especially since we allowed fewer goals than the Caps in the regular season. It's absolutely shocking that your top line lit us up, oh wait, they combined for 23 points against the Lightning too. I bet you're not posting about how bad the Lightning's D is.

And if you want to read up on the Leafs cap situation there has been about a dozen articles posted and hundreds of pages on the mainboards about that very topic. Perhaps you should read some and see why the Leafs will be totally fine handing out those serious contracts.

Is this a case one of the many Leaf fans who have been helping the cup parades down Yonge Stree every season they start off with a Win. If you don't think you are top heavy have Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Kadri, Marleau etc. you may not watch any other teams play.

Not sure how the Bruins come into play here - I mean the original post was indicating being top heavy and moving a forward for a Stud D man and making sure they don't run into cap issues - I guess those points may have been missed.

Talking about a Bruins top line that lit the Leafs up....sure, that doesn't excuse the fact you need help on D.... Yes the Bruins gave up goals for sure....but I never made a claim that they had a Stud D man that was taking them to the cup finals.... I actually think they over performed last year....so its a moot point.

Talking about the Penguins is talking about the outlier not the normal - not to mention Letang is not what I would call a bad D man, and truth be told Hainsey one of your better playoff D men played for the Penguins. But again even if you consider their D and Letang to be crap (which is pretty naive), their case can also be made with having the best player in hockey for many years - but again I reiterate they are more the outlier than the norm - however had a decent D corps.

You are right I dont post about how bad the Lightning D men are because if you missed it, they had a stud D man....who may have also won the Norris this year - you can look him up, his name is Hedman... again you prove my point about having D help you win cups.

As for the cap - yes many articles about cap space - for ease of numbers lets do a quick break down with assumptions for next years Leaf contracts:
Tavares - 11 Million
Matthews - 11 Million
Marner - 8 million
Nylander - 7 Million
Marleau - 6 Million
43 Million tied up to 5 Forwards (granted Marleau only has one more year after this year) - those 5 players consume 55% of the cap space of a 23 man roster. So as I said before, the Leafs will want to make sure they can stay ahead of putting themselves into cap purgatory.

At the end of the day its a team game, won by a team and lost by a team - however if you watch many teams that have won cups previously they have had Stud D man playing or a very hot goalie (which can be a reflection of the D as well).

But again its hard to talk to many Leaf fans as they treat anything said about their team as sacrilegious unless it implies they are the greatest. If people are offended that the notion of trading Marner for a stud D man is upsetting...well thats music to my ears because you have the debatably the best Center tandem in hockey which will wreck havoc on other teams, and its nice to see that the D situation is still lacking a little so other teams have a chance.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I know Nedereiter-Marner is a fair enough swap I guess, but kind of a waste of time for both parties.

You don't know that! You made it up for the board.

 

[TaLoN]

ya, dumba had a better year than Zaitsev last year, though Zaitsev was quite good after he returned from injury.

I don't have a lot of faith in dumba ever graduating into being a good tough-competition dman, even though he can look good against 2nd tier opposition.....like gardiner. But you could be right that Dumba still has lots of upside left to tap.

You should've watched Dumba when Spurgeon went down and Dumba got promoted to the #2 spot with Suter. The Wild took off from there and played their best hockey of the season because of the impact Dumba had jumping to the top pair!

Dumba isn't YET as good as Sprugeon is, but by the end of this coming season, he surely might be a better overall player than Spurgeon!

 

[DoobieDubas]

Lol at people getting mad when leafs say no to a trade for marner..

The kid is untouchable. Life long leafs fan, elite skills, tavares signed to play with the kid. I wouldn't be surprised to see marner and tavares retire as leafs and become part of their management/skills development team one far off day.

 

[TorontoTrades]

So the wild completely obliterate the right side of their defense..... Ooookay, why would they want to do this again?

Uhhhh to get Marner? Terrible deal for Toronto.

 

[LeafGrief]

Is this a case one of the many Leaf fans who have been helping the cup parades down Yonge Stree every season they start off with a Win. If you don't think you are top heavy have Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Kadri, Marleau etc. you may not watch any other teams play.

Not sure how the Bruins come into play here - I mean the original post was indicating being top heavy and moving a forward for a Stud D man and making sure they don't run into cap issues - I guess those points may have been missed.

Talking about a Bruins top line that lit the Leafs up....sure, that doesn't excuse the fact you need help on D.... Yes the Bruins gave up goals for sure....but I never made a claim that they had a Stud D man that was taking them to the cup finals.... I actually think they over performed last year....so its a moot point.

Talking about the Penguins is talking about the outlier not the normal - not to mention Letang is not what I would call a bad D man, and truth be told Hainsey one of your better playoff D men played for the Penguins. But again even if you consider their D and Letang to be crap (which is pretty naive), their case can also be made with having the best player in hockey for many years - but again I reiterate they are more the outlier than the norm - however had a decent D corps.

You are right I dont post about how bad the Lightning D men are because if you missed it, they had a stud D man....who may have also won the Norris this year - you can look him up, his name is Hedman... again you prove my point about having D help you win cups.

As for the cap - yes many articles about cap space - for ease of numbers lets do a quick break down with assumptions for next years Leaf contracts:
Tavares - 11 Million
Matthews - 11 Million
Marner - 8 million
Nylander - 7 Million
Marleau - 6 Million
43 Million tied up to 5 Forwards (granted Marleau only has one more year after this year) - those 5 players consume 55% of the cap space of a 23 man roster. So as I said before, the Leafs will want to make sure they can stay ahead of putting themselves into cap purgatory.

At the end of the day its a team game, won by a team and lost by a team - however if you watch many teams that have won cups previously they have had Stud D man playing or a very hot goalie (which can be a reflection of the D as well).

But again its hard to talk to many Leaf fans as they treat anything said about their team as sacrilegious unless it implies they are the greatest. If people are offended that the notion of trading Marner for a stud D man is upsetting...well thats music to my ears because you have the debatably the best Center tandem in hockey which will wreck havoc on other teams, and its nice to see that the D situation is still lacking a little so other teams have a chance.

Oh look, another Bruins fan with pages and pages to write about how the Leafs need to restructure or they're screwed. 12th best in GA in the league last year. Why don't you tell me more about our defence. Your belief that the Leafs need defensive help is ridiculous because you are basing it entirely on the performance of your own team, and the same forwards who beat the Leafs managed to score 23 points against a team who's defence you like. Funny enough, the team who's defence you like had a Norris winner and a Vezina candidate and still managed to let in more goals than the Leafs over 82 games. We let in fewer goals than the cup champs too. Everybody and their dog knows both Caps and Lightning are better defensively in the Leafs, but don't act like we need to trade Marner to catch up.

I really don't care about your salary cap projections.

Leafs are looking to add a piece on D and your concerns have been hashed out a thousand and one time on the Leafs boards, it's not like we haven't thought about it. You just know nothing about our depth and what we have in the other 45% of our salary space that makes us comfortable.

 

[780il]

Uhhhh to get Marner? Terrible deal for Toronto.

Are you serious? Lol Toronto would win the cup if they made this trade lol. Some Leafs fans man....

 

[Digitalbooya]

Lol at people getting mad when leafs say no to a trade for marner..

The kid is untouchable. Life long leafs fan, elite skills, tavares signed to play with the kid. I wouldn't be surprised to see marner and tavares retire as leafs and become part of their management/skills development team one far off day.

Nobody is mad about Leafs fans not wanting to trade Marner. Nobody. People are mad because the other team is obliterating the best part of their playoff team for a piece that isn’t the most pressing need: a young 1C.

 

[DoobieDubas]

A young 1c=draft him ..nobody trades young 1cs unless they want to get fired. I remember what happened to the guy who traded seguin

 

[Digitalbooya]

A young 1c=draft him ..nobody trades young 1cs unless they want to get fired. I remember what happened to the guy who traded seguin

Nobody trades their entire right side of their top 4 either. Especially when both are highly sought after pieces.

 

[TaLoN]

Nobody trades their entire right side of their top 4 either. Especially when both are highly sought after pieces.

I can't recall a single instance of this happening it's so rare. Yet we all can recall instances of young 1c players being traded... even though it is also rare.

No GM in their right mind would ever gut the top of their defense for a young winger.

 

[Marshy]

I can't recall a single instance of this happening it's so rare. Yet we all can recall instances of young 1c players being traded... even though it is also rare.

No GM in their right mind would ever gut the top of their defense for a young winger.

Not even Bergevin?

 

[Marlowe Syn]

A young 1c=draft him ..nobody trades young 1cs unless they want to get fired. I remember what happened to the guy who traded seguin

The guy? Peter Chiarelli. The guy that got fired almost two years later for missing the playoff? I'm sure the trade didn't help his standing in Boston, but wasn't why he was fired. GM Kekaleinen traded Ryan Johansson a couple of years ago and he is still employed with the same organization. Granted both of those players were in the need of a change in scenery in a most dire way. It is rare, but #1Cs do get moved. The Wild are consistently drafting in the 20's in the first round. Not too many potential 1Cs available there typically. Beside even if there was one available we'd probably opt for a "safe" pick. I love my Wild, but it is a safe low risk organization.

Not even Bergevin?

Talon said GM in his right mind. Bergevin and his mind had an amicable split a few years ago.

 

[BearsofBeantown]

Oh look, another Bruins fan with pages and pages to write about how the Leafs need to restructure or they're screwed. 12th best in GA in the league last year. Why don't you tell me more about our defence. Your belief that the Leafs need defensive help is ridiculous because you are basing it entirely on the performance of your own team, and the same forwards who beat the Leafs managed to score 23 points against a team who's defence you like. Funny enough, the team who's defence you like had a Norris winner and a Vezina candidate and still managed to let in more goals than the Leafs over 82 games. We let in fewer goals than the cup champs too. Everybody and their dog knows both Caps and Lightning are better defensively in the Leafs, but don't act like we need to trade Marner to catch up.

I really don't care about your salary cap projections.

Leafs are looking to add a piece on D and your concerns have been hashed out a thousand and one time on the Leafs boards, it's not like we haven't thought about it. You just know nothing about our depth and what we have in the other 45% of our salary space that makes us comfortable.

And Leaf fans wonder why they are not liked - you are right your team is the best, best forwards, best defense, best goalie.....the cup is coming yet again next year to Toronto. Not sure why my being a Bruins fan and making a comment that is well known that the Leafs need some D help, but again I guess the truth hurts all Leaf fans unless we are praising how good they are.

You keep chirping about about comments that weren't even part of the thread to deflect from the original statements. Then make asinine comments about knowing depth and that fact that cups are all won with out D men, pointing out GA of the Bruins in the playoffs etc (which had no context to the conversation). Matter of fact maybe we should turn this into a trade Reilly thread to add some more forward depth to the none top heavy Leafs roster?

Wish you and your team all the best next season and I look forward to having a drink downtown the ACC/Scotiabank Centre after their cup victory.