Why were the Sharks eliminated by the Stars in 2008?

[Jdes91]

They had a better record than the Stars did but came up flat. Did they choke or were they just injured and couldn't create any offense?

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[tiburon12]

A few reasons, but it was a close series; 4 games went to OT. If memory serves, Turco massively outplayed Nabokov, Stars executed on their chances where the Sharks didnt, and the Sharks just didnt have an answer for Morrow (of all people). The Sharks also had this swagger that didnt work out for them. They ended the regular season on an 18-2-2 run (i think), and then were out hustled by Calgary in the first round, and again by the Stars in round 2.

Nabokov let in some really questionable goals and looked generally shaky. He was caught swimming a bunch since he was so aggressive (game 2 in particular). The Sharks also had some slow, lumbering guys like Rivet, Semenov, and Murray on D, and the Stars had fast forwards who passed well. That didnt work well with Nabokov's playing style since he had to move so much. Turco, on the other hand, made so many point blank saves at key moments.

Morrow really was an x-factor though. He was overly physical against guys like Michalek and some of the D, and no one stood up to him (iirc). Morrow really led the Stars with his intensity and they all played so much harder than the Sharks. They looked like they wanted it more, save for Roenick.

Game 5 is a great example of the series as a whole. Morrow basically had a hattrick, but 2 goals were waved off, one for a weak kicking call and the other for a hand goal. Even so he was often unmolested around the crease and was able to create. His actual goal was from a terrible angle that Nabokov let in. Their other goal was again from someone alone in front of the net. The Sharks' goals were also really telling. Michalek scored off an elite play from Thornton (though for the rest of the series no one could bury the chances Jumbo provided....), and the other two were absolutely pin-perfect glove side snipes from Campbell and Pavs. Turco was a wall, even if he was clumsy looking.

Sharks may have had more skill, but they did not play at the same intensity the Stars did and it cost them.

 

[OrrNumber4]

At the time, a common explanation was the Sharks coming down from their post-TDL high. They had gone 20 straight games getting at least a point (IIRC only one SO loss and one OT loss) before losing their final two regular-season games...and we all saw the torpidity on display versus Calgary and Dallas.

Undoubtedly, this theory has some merit. Yet in hindsight, the team was fractured along many lines. Many players had a foot out the door, there were leadership problems, no one liked the coach's game plan, and Ron Wilson was...well, Ron Wilson. Chris Pronger's comments about the overconfidence of that Sharks team was, conceivably, true just two years later.

 

[Alwalys]

Soupy Campbell was playing like a bitch!!

 

[OffSydes]

At the time, a common explanation was the Sharks coming down from their post-TDL high. They had gone 20 straight games getting at least a point (IIRC only one SO loss and one OT loss) before losing their final two regular-season games...and we all saw the torpidity on display versus Calgary and Dallas.

Undoubtedly, this theory has some merit. Yet in hindsight, the team was fractured along many lines. Many players had a foot out the door, there were leadership problems, no one liked the coach's game plan, and Ron Wilson was...well, Ron Wilson. Chris Pronger's comments about the overconfidence of that Sharks team was, conceivably, true just two years later.

Glad those are things of the past.

 

[sharkbyte]

Brenden Morrow was a man possessed in that series, Nabokov struggled, and Brian Campbell fell off substantially from his production to end the season. I had high hopes that year after Campbell came over at the TDL because the team went on a roll and was destroying the league left and right to end the season.

That series against Calgary really took a lot out of us. I mean, we needed 37 year old Jeremy f****ing Roenick to bail us out with a 2 goal 2 assist game in Game 7 to advance and it was pretty clear they didn't have much left against Dallas. The team also had a similar problem as the 06 and 07 teams did where after Thornton/Marleau there wasn't really much - I guess Michalek had a decent year, but this was before Pavelski and Clowe and others really took the next step.

It's really a shame that when everything did come together in 2009, they lost in the first round to Anaheim.

 

[The Nemesis]

The Sharks were eliminated because Dallas won 4 games before the Sharks did, as is the case in all eliminations. This happened because Dallas scored more goals than the Sharks in those 4 games.

Case closed.

 

[Coily]

Because we didn't have enough luck of the 33.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

A few reasons, but it was a close series; 4 games went to OT. If memory serves, Turco massively outplayed Nabokov, Stars executed on their chances where the Sharks didnt, and the Sharks just didnt have an answer for Morrow (of all people). The Sharks also had this swagger that didnt work out for them. They ended the regular season on an 18-2-2 run (i think), and then were out hustled by Calgary in the first round, and again by the Stars in round 2.

Nabokov let in some really questionable goals and looked generally shaky. He was caught swimming a bunch since he was so aggressive (game 2 in particular). The Sharks also had some slow, lumbering guys like Rivet, Semenov, and Murray on D, and the Stars had fast forwards who passed well. That didnt work well with Nabokov's playing style since he had to move so much. Turco, on the other hand, made so many point blank saves at key moments.

Morrow really was an x-factor though. He was overly physical against guys like Michalek and some of the D, and no one stood up to him (iirc). Morrow really led the Stars with his intensity and they all played so much harder than the Sharks. They looked like they wanted it more, save for Roenick.

Game 5 is a great example of the series as a whole. Morrow basically had a hattrick, but 2 goals were waved off, one for a weak kicking call and the other for a hand goal. Even so he was often unmolested around the crease and was able to create. His actual goal was from a terrible angle that Nabokov let in. Their other goal was again from someone alone in front of the net. The Sharks' goals were also really telling. Michalek scored off an elite play from Thornton (though for the rest of the series no one could bury the chances Jumbo provided....), and the other two were absolutely pin-perfect glove side snipes from Campbell and Pavs. Turco was a wall, even if he was clumsy looking.

Sharks may have had more skill, but they did not play at the same intensity the Stars did and it cost them.

Turco didn't outplay Nabby. That post season was one of his best ever. The Stars team was deeper and rested and the Sharks were worn out from the previous brutally physical 7 game series with Calgary. Dallas had deeper scoring depth and just pounded the Sharks into submission.

Sharks and Dallas played 3x 2-1 games, 2x 3-2 games and the one blow out 5-2 in game 2. Game 2 is typically the let down game for the tired team. That's about as close and as well a goaltended series as you can have. Goals were 14-11 overall for the 6 games. Once again, Nabby never lost a series where the offense scored more than 2gpg. Nabby wasn't the problem, not by a long shot. This post season over any other.

 

[tiburon12]

Turco didn't outplay Nabby. That post season was one of his best ever. The Stars team was deeper and rested and the Sharks were worn out from the previous brutally physical 7 game series with Calgary. Dallas had deeper scoring depth and just pounded the Sharks into submission.

Sharks and Dallas played 3x 2-1 games, 2x 3-2 games and the one blow out 5-2 in game 2. Game 2 is typically the let down game for the tired team. That's about as close and as well a goaltended series as you can have. Goals were 14-11 overall for the 6 games. Once again, Nabby never lost a series where the offense scored more than 2gpg. Nabby wasn't the problem, not by a long shot. This post season over any other.

I'll take back that I said he looked generally shaky (kinda forgot what his style was), but I suggest you go back (takes about 30 mins) and watch the highlights of the series on Youtube and check out the how the two goalies played. I didn't say Nabokov lost us the series, I said Turco outplayed him. Like you pointed out, Turco only allowed 11 goals in 6 games (or about 24 periods of hockey). Both goalies can play well and one still outplay the other.

Case in point is game 2. Nabby had a bad game. He let one goal on a bank-in from behind the net, an unscreened wrist shot from the top of the circle, and a goal where he was too aggressive and became out of position. Turco meanwhile made a series of excellent saves in the first period. Turco didnt have a bad game. He maybe only had one bad goal against (first goal of game 1) in the whole series. Nabby had a few game two and at least a few more.

Even in Game 6, Nabokov made that save (Best all time IMO), but Turco made so many more big stops. Sharks were the better team that game and got out-goalied, despite Nabby playing amazing.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I'll take back that I said he looked generally shaky (kinda forgot what his style was), but I suggest you go back (takes about 30 mins) and watch the highlights of the series on Youtube and check out the how the two goalies played. I didn't say Nabokov lost us the series, I said Turco outplayed him. Like you pointed out, Turco only allowed 11 goals in 6 games (or about 24 periods of hockey). Both goalies can play well and one still outplay the other.

Case in point is game 2. Nabby had a bad game. He let one goal on a bank-in from behind the net, an unscreened wrist shot from the top of the circle, and a goal where he was too aggressive and became out of position. Turco meanwhile made a series of excellent saves in the first period. Turco didnt have a bad game. He maybe only had one bad goal against (first goal of game 1) in the whole series. Nabby had a few game two and at least a few more.

Even in Game 6, Nabokov made that save (Best all time IMO), but Turco made so many more big stops. Sharks were the better team that game and got out-goalied, despite Nabby playing amazing.

I disagree. I think the Dallas skaters outplayed the Sharks. The goalies were at best a wash but I remember thinking Nabby had way more difficult saves than Turco. Sharks offense at this point was t-mac volume shooting method. High volume, low danger.

If anything, watching the highlights shows the Sharks getting dominated in their own zone and giving up tic tac toe plays defensively. When a team plays shitty D the goalies tend to try and compensate and get out of position.


About Game 2
That bank in from behind goal is not Nabby fault. Kinda silly to even blame him. Rebound off the back boards, nab played it right being at the top of the crease for a point shot one timer from the middle of the ice. Lucky bounce to Ribero who bounced it of the back of nabbys leg or back. No way can you blame him for that at the speed it happened in real time. goal 2 for Dallas, the high slot wrist shot after Pavs coughed up the puck and forgot how to skate? That was Brad Richards, previous con Smyth trophy winner with all the time in the world. Sure maybe Nabby should have saved it but that's shitty play by the skaters yet again. Goal 3, on the PP? Sharks D not covering anyone in the D zone. Amazing Cross ice backhander (zubov, the datsyuk of D-men) to Mike Madano who has an easy goal because no one thought to cover one of the greatest American goal scorers in history. Goal 4? Yeah he maybe should have stopped that but it wasn't soft. Sharks AGAIN let someone walk right in with a point blank chance. Dallas wasn't ever this sloppy in the D-zone during this series. Last goal was empty net. Sorry man I couldn't disagree more. Sharks skaters sucked ass in their own zone. Nabby was excellent in this whole playoff. Sharks offense was anemic and their defense was like a turnstile.

You want to talk out of position? Turco on Mihaleks goal... that was laughable how bad he played that.

 

[tiburon12]

I disagree. I think the Dallas skaters outplayed the Sharks. The goalies were at best a wash but I remember thinking Nabby had way more difficult saves than Turco. Sharks offense at this point was t-mac volume shooting method. High volume, low danger.

If anything, watching the highlights shows the Sharks getting dominated in their own zone and giving up tic tac toe plays defensively. When a team plays shitty D the goalies tend to try and compensate and get out of position.

IDK what to tell you. By the numbers and the eye test, Turco played better.
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

If you sort by games played you can line up Nabby and Turco. It's pretty cut and dry Turco played much better.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

IDK what to tell you. By the numbers and the eye test, Turco played better.
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

If you sort by games played you can line up Nabby and Turco. It's pretty cut and dry Turco played much better.

3 GAA difference in a 6 game series, 4 OT games. Dallas clearly had the better offense. Watching those games live and on replay, it never felt like the Sharks were in control. Dallas was clearly the better team. Goalies at worst played even but the Stars would have run away with it if it weren't for Nabby's heroics. You claimed Turco "massively" outplayed Nabby, I disagree. Sorry but my eye test says different.

 

[tiburon12]

3 GAA difference in a 6 game series, 4 OT games. Dallas clearly had the better offense. I attended 3 of those games and watched on replay later when I got home. It never felt like the Sharks were in control. Dallas was clearly the better team. Goalies at worst played even but the Stars would have run away with it if it weren't for Nabby's heroics. You claimed Turco "massively" outplayed Nabby, I disagree. Sorry but my eye test says different.

If your eyes say different, then look at the numbers. Turco faced more shots and roughly 1.75x more high dangers chances and still had a higher save % in both categories. He also had a much higher GSAA despite a much higher xGA. Heres another, Stars had 131 low/mid danger shots against, Sharks had 133. Difference was Turco only let in 4 goals where Nabokov let in 9.

All the stats are there. Turco outplayed him plain and simple, and i dont this saying it was massive is out of bounds. Again, Nabokov played great, but still not as great as Turco played.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Marleau lifted his skate up.

 

[Barrie22]

Marleau lifted his skate up.

That play bothered me to no end, but it was just because it highlights a huge flaw in the sharks defensive plan from as far back as i can remember with the team.

They were never a team to just do everything that was needed to stop a puck from getting through. They always tried to move out of the way to let the goalie deal with it.

This play sticks out because it was marleau and he if blocks that shot could of potentially been off to the races for a breakaway.

 

[Jacksonbobson]

Stars were pretty damn good that playoff year.

Took out the defending champs in round one and then the Sharks in round 2 and also took a very good Detroit team to 6 games.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

If your eyes say different, then look at the numbers. Turco faced more shots and roughly 1.75x more high dangers chances and still had a higher save % in both categories. He also had a much higher GSAA despite a much higher xGA. Heres another, Stars had 131 low/mid danger shots against, Sharks had 133. Difference was Turco only let in 4 goals where Nabokov let in 9.

All the stats are there. Turco outplayed him plain and simple, and i dont this saying it was massive is out of bounds. Again, Nabokov played great, but still not as great as Turco played.

You have to look at the data on individual games. That one lopsided game throws it all out of wack due to how close the series was.

 

[tiburon12]

You have to look at the data on individual games. That one lopsided game throws it all out of wack due to how close the series was.

Here's a breakdown where i've bolded the better goalie:

Game 1 - Nabokov faced 18 shots, had a .833 SV% and a -.81 GSAA. Turco had 27 shots against and a .926 SV% Sharks also had a 59.1% Corsi. Turco

Game 2 - Hashed out above Nabokov got pulled despite the Sharks players putting up 56.8% Corsi? Turco

Game 3 - Both goalies played excellent. Stars outplayed the Sharks, outshooting them 27-20. Sharks only goal was a shorthanded breakaway, but still manage a good amount of HD chances. Nabby stops a PS and gives up a goal 5-3 and shot through traffic. Nabokov (slightly)

Game 4 - Sharks dominate offensively, but Turco keeps the Stars in the game. Nabby likely gets a SO if not for one of the worst turnovers i've seen in the playoffs. Wash

Game 5 - Stars get 2 goals taken off the board, Nabby lets in a shot from the corner, and Turco makes a number of key saves and needs A+ shots, 1 pavelski tip and 2 perfect snipes. Turco (slightly)

Game 6 - The epic goaltenders duel. Turco and Nabby each make humongous saves and surrender goals that are not their fault. Wash

Games 1 & 2 are really not great for Nabokov. I agree that in the last 4 games the goaltending was a wash, but games 1 & 2 are so clearly in Turco's favor. 2 games of 6.... you have to think that if Nabokov plays to the level Turco did in those games, the Sharks win one or both.

Disagree all you want, but there is tons of visual and statistical evidence showing that Turco outplayed Nabokov, and when he does so for 1/3 of a series, I consider that massively outplaying. In other words, Stars had A+ goaltending for 6 games, Sharks had A+ goaltending for 4 games and below average for 2.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Here's a breakdown where i've bolded the better goalie:

Game 1 - Nabokov faced 18 shots, had a .833 SV% and a -.81 GSAA. Turco had 27 shots against and a .926 SV% Sharks also had a 59.1% Corsi. Turco

Game 2 - Hashed out above Nabokov got pulled despite the Sharks players putting up 56.8% Corsi? Turco

Game 3 - Both goalies played excellent. Stars outplayed the Sharks, outshooting them 27-20. Sharks only goal was a shorthanded breakaway, but still manage a good amount of HD chances. Nabby stops a PS and gives up a goal 5-3 and shot through traffic. Nabokov (slightly)

Game 4 - Sharks dominate offensively, but Turco keeps the Stars in the game. Nabby likely gets a SO if not for one of the worst turnovers i've seen in the playoffs. Wash

Game 5 - Stars get 2 goals taken off the board, Nabby lets in a shot from the corner, and Turco makes a number of key saves and needs A+ shots, 1 pavelski tip and 2 perfect snipes. Turco (slightly)

Game 6 - The epic goaltenders duel. Turco and Nabby each make humongous saves and surrender goals that are not their fault. Wash

Games 1 & 2 are really not great for Nabokov. I agree that in the last 4 games the goaltending was a wash, but games 1 & 2 are so clearly in Turco's favor. 2 games of 6.... you have to think that if Nabokov plays to the level Turco did in those games, the Sharks win one or both.

Disagree all you want, but there is tons of visual and statistical evidence showing that Turco outplayed Nabokov, and when he does so for 1/3 of a series, I consider that massively outplaying. In other words, Stars had A+ goaltending for 6 games, Sharks had A+ goaltending for 4 games and below average for 2.

I went over game 2 and frankly I don't blame Nabby on any of them. Your other conclusions on the other games are clearly slanted to Turcos benefit. You say it took snipes to beat Turco but Nabby doesn't get that same benefit? Brad Richards snipe in game 2 was exactly that. I don't care what the corsi was if the Sharks turn around and give up the ridiculous chances they did that Dallas scored on. A team can play a great game but give up 3 or 4 bone headed chances that lose them the game. Sharks have been great at losing that way for more than a decade it seems.

Game 1 the Sharks had a wide open net but hit a post. Stars scored 2 PP goals including the game winner. 1st goal was a point shot bomb thru a screen of 4 players directly in front of nabby. Not much he could do with that one. 2nd goal was 100% the skaters fault for not covering their guy. Nabby made the first couple saves and got no help. Same with the game winner. He got hung out to dry on 2.

Look man, you know I obviously like you a ton. My experiences with this game over a number of decades lead me to a different conclusion. My main gripe was that you said "massively outplayed Nabby". That's just not true. At worst they were even IMO but Dallas had the better defensive structure especially when it came to 2nd chances and scrums around the net. Sharks played very loose in their own zone. The stats just don't tell the whole story. They almost never do when it comes to hockey. Best I can offer you is agree to disagree.

 

[tiburon12]

I went over game 2 and frankly I don't blame Nabby on any of them. Your other conclusions on the other games are clearly slanted to Turcos benefit. You say it took snipes to beat Turco but Nabby doesn't get that same benefit? Brad Richards snipe in game 2 was exactly that. I don't care what the corsi was if the Sharks turn around and give up the ridiculous chances they did that Dallas scored on. A team can play a great game but give up 3 or 4 bone headed chances that lose them the game. Sharks have been great at losing that way for more than a decade it seems.

Game 1 the Sharks had a wide open net but hit a post. Stars scored 2 PP goals including the game winner. 1st goal was a point shot bomb thru a screen of 4 players directly in front of nabby. Not much he could do with that one. 2nd goal was 100% the skaters fault for not covering their guy. Nabby made the first couple saves and got no help. Same with the game winner. He got hung out to dry on 2.

Look man, you know I obviously like you a ton. My experiences with this game over a number of decades lead me to a different conclusion. My main gripe was that you said "massively outplayed Nabby". That's just not true. At worst they were even IMO but Dallas had the better defensive structure especially when it came to 2nd chances and scrums around the net. Sharks played very loose in their own zone. The stats just don't tell the whole story. They almost never do when it comes to hockey. Best I can offer you is agree to disagree.

Fair enough. I just recall the Sharks steamrolling teams leading into the playoffs, then getting outworked by Calgary depsite still scoring a good amount. Then the Dallas series hit and we couldnt score. Memory attributes that to Turco and the stats back it up.

We can agree on one thing though, Morrow was a machine and was the biggest factor in that series on either side

 

[ChompChomp]

I forgot that four games in that series went to OT. Despite everything said, which has merit, the Sharks could have got lucky bounces in those OT sessions and advanced.

It's funny because I remember during that era (the Ron Wilson post-lockout era) it certainly felt like Sharks didn't win many playoff OT games. Contrast that to this past decade, especially recent years when it felt like Sharks did very well in playoff OT.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Fair enough. I just recall the Sharks steamrolling teams leading into the playoffs, then getting outworked by Calgary depsite still scoring a good amount. Then the Dallas series hit and we couldnt score. Memory attributes that to Turco and the stats back it up.

We can agree on one thing though, Morrow was a machine and was the biggest factor in that series on either side

Sharks were notorious in that era for playing regular season hockey in the playoffs. They didn't sell out to protect their defensive zone and they rarely were more physical than the other team. That season in particular they thought they would end Calgary quickly and took them lightly. Calgary pounded them physically. Wasn't this the series where Marleau got trucked bloodied by one of Calgary's D-men? Then they got to Dallas and were too drained to take what Dallas was dishing out. Remember Dallas also had Ott who was as cheap and physical as ever in that series. It wasn't just morrow, it was the entire Dallas team. Sharks wilted under the pressure and couldn't generate actual goals the way you can in the regular season. It wasn't Nabby that was the problem and Turco didn't have to make as many or the same level of difficulty of shots that Nabby faced. There is nuance in HDSC which is lost in a simple look at the stats. The difference in that series wasn't the goaltending.

 

[Alwalys]

Sharks were notorious in that era for playing regular season hockey in the playoffs. They didn't sell out to protect their defensive zone and they rarely were more physical than the other team. That season in particular they thought they would end Calgary quickly and took them lightly. Calgary pounded them physically. Wasn't this the series where Marleau got trucked bloodied by one of Calgary's D-men? Then they got to Dallas and were too drained to take what Dallas was dishing out. Remember Dallas also had Ott who was as cheap and physical as ever in that series. It wasn't just morrow, it was the entire Dallas team. Sharks wilted under the pressure and couldn't generate actual goals the way you can in the regular season. It wasn't Nabby that was the problem and Turco didn't have to make as many or the same level of difficulty of shots that Nabby faced. There is nuance in HDSC which is lost in a simple look at the stats. The difference in that series wasn't the goaltending.

cory sarich then michalek got trucked by morrow the next round

 

[OrrNumber4]

Interestingly, and according to Marty Turco, Morrow sustained an injury and that series and was much less effective going forwards; Turco credits this as a big reason why Dallas didn't advance that year.