Line Combos: Why splitting up the Sedins would be beneficial

[Scurr]

I think the better idea is to keep them together and have them play with a young guy or grinder. 80pts playing with Zack Kassian at even strength means more to our team than 90pts playing with Burrows imo. We need to create some depth by having the twins carry somebody.

 

[Hi-wayman]

It's generally considered not to be a good move for any NHL team to bring in any more than one or two rookies per season. From the looks of things the Canucks are likely to bring in at least three rookies this season, One forward, one defenseman and one goalie.

Personally I think Jensen needs to spend this season in the AHL. He needs to improve his defensive side of the game and how to play without the puck. If we do bring in a rookie foward into our lineup, I'd rather see Guance or Hamil (still considered a rookie) added to play wing on the 4th line. Having more than one centre on the 4th line along with Richardsib & who are also good taking faceoffs would be a plus.

If Booth is healthy, I think he is more suited to play with the Sedins rather than with Kesler. Both are shooters not playmakers. I also think Kassian would be better utilized on the 3rd line together with Schroeder and Higgins. My suggested lineup would be:

D. Sedin - H Sedin - Booth
Burrows - Kesler - Hansen
Higgins - Schroeder - Kassian
Guance/Sestito - Richardson - Hamil/Weise

three lines that can shoot the puck
one line quick and defensive

 

[deckercky]

And who sets up Daniel? he needs a greta playmaker to feed him and that sure as hell isn't Kesler or Hansen. Problem is guys like Booth and Kassian need to be with a great playmaker. Love Kesler but wish he could set guys up a bit more than he has in recent years.

He doesn't need a great playmaker, but he benefits from one. How about a center who scored 50 assists last time he had a great trigger man on his line? And Daniel's playmaking skills get to benefit from a player who's scored 40 goals before. I think Kassian is the natural fit with those two, as he has decent playmaking skills, a solid net presence, and should be able to jump on any rebounds around the net.

 

[Royal Canuck]

It's been tried before, and it failed.

You don't seperate the twins. They're special together for a reason.

 

[Tanevian*]

It's been tried before, and it failed.

You don't seperate the twins. They're special together for a reason.

I remember a series or 2 where that wasn't the case. As crazy as this might sound, throwing a different look at a defence isn't a bad idea. Trying it for 4 shifts is pointless.

 

[Royal Canuck]

I remember a series or 2 where that wasn't the case. As crazy as this might sound, throwing a different look at a defence isn't a bad idea. Trying it for 4 shifts is pointless.

Remember the 2012 playoffs? We we're 0/3 when the Twins weren't together, 1/2 when they were. Not saying we would beat LA if we had the Twins together the whole series, but I think we would've won at least one more game.

It's like seperating Batman from Robin, sure they can do things alone, but they make eachother that much better together.

 

[Tanevian*]

Remember the 2012 playoffs? We we're 0/3 when the Twins weren't together, 1/2 when they were. Not saying we would beat LA if we had the Twins together the whole series, but I think we would've won at least one more game.

It's like seperating Batman from Robin, sure they can do things alone, but they make eachother that much better together.

I think we were 0-3 when one of them was out with a concussion. I wasn't suggesting we concuss Daniel but rather give defence a difference look. If 2 guys are playing together on D, make their coach adjust.

 

[biturbo19]

I think the better idea is to keep them together and have them play with a young guy or grinder. 80pts playing with Zack Kassian at even strength means more to our team than 90pts playing with Burrows imo. We need to create some depth by having the twins carry somebody.

I think this is absolutely the way to go about getting the intended results of what this thread is really after. That is, balance in our top-6.

Splitting up the Twins is a non-starter for me, as every time it's been tried, it's been nothing more than a quick gimmick that negates their one great advantage as players (chemistry) and doesn't really improve anything at all.

I completely understand the desire to spread that offense around, and most teams have an easier road to doing that than the Canucks. But we're just not like say the Blackhawks where we can split up Kane and Toews to spread the wealth. The Sedins strength is their ability to work together...outside of that, they're very average 'top-6' players.


However...i think the idea of putting a guy like Jensen alongside the Twins to be 'carried' is very close to the concept of what Chicago did with Saad. If the Twins can still be PPG+ players and simultaneously carry a raw rookie putting up really good numbers, that frees up a guy like Burrows to play with say Kesler and form a really solid 2nd line unit that can potentially also 'carry' a sort of 'passenger' linemate.

I think that's the real appeal of setting a guy like Kassian alongside the Twins as well. If he can produce through a whole season at the sort of clip he did to kick off last season before he faded...that gives the team so many more options in the top-6.


As for the other element i think is in play with this silly 'split up the Twins' movement, i absolutely agree that we need a 2nd stud playmaking center in the fold. Right now, Kesler isn't that guy at all, and i seriously doubt Schroeder fits the bill either. But we really could use a 2nd centerman who actually makes the players around him better with his passing and vision. But splitting up the Twins won't fix that issue.

 

[ddawg1950]

I think this is absolutely the way to go about getting the intended results of what this thread is really after. That is, balance in our top-6.

Splitting up the Twins is a non-starter for me, as every time it's been tried, it's been nothing more than a quick gimmick that negates their one great advantage as players (chemistry) and doesn't really improve anything at all.

I completely understand the desire to spread that offense around, and most teams have an easier road to doing that than the Canucks. But we're just not like say the Blackhawks where we can split up Kane and Toews to spread the wealth. The Sedins strength is their ability to work together...outside of that, they're very average 'top-6' players.


However...i think the idea of putting a guy like Jensen alongside the Twins to be 'carried' is very close to the concept of what Chicago did with Saad. If the Twins can still be PPG+ players and simultaneously carry a raw rookie putting up really good numbers, that frees up a guy like Burrows to play with say Kesler and form a really solid 2nd line unit that can potentially also 'carry' a sort of 'passenger' linemate.

I think that's the real appeal of setting a guy like Kassian alongside the Twins as well. If he can produce through a whole season at the sort of clip he did to kick off last season before he faded...that gives the team so many more options in the top-6.


As for the other element i think is in play with this silly 'split up the Twins' movement, i absolutely agree that we need a 2nd stud playmaking center in the fold. Right now, Kesler isn't that guy at all, and i seriously doubt Schroeder fits the bill either. But we really could use a 2nd centerman who actually makes the players around him better with his passing and vision. But splitting up the Twins won't fix that issue.

Your last paragraph nails one of our biggest deficiencies and I agree that Kesler is not that guy. And I don't see the organizational willingness to move Kesler to the wing. A couple of years ago, I thought maybe a guy lie Tanguay could be brought in as a playmaking winger, but that ship has sailed. And I think a guy like Bruner would fit the bill this year, but cap space is the problem at this point.

 

[Barney Gumble]

It's like seperating Batman from Robin, sure they can do things alone, but they make eachother that much better together.

Batman can always get another Robin. Can Robin get another Batman?

 

[strattonius]

I'm just not sure it's beneficial. Their offensive zone time wears down the opposition and often gives our defense a much needed break from their own zone. Sometimes I think the Sedins should get split up for short periods of time, but if we are looking to score with one period to play, how do you really NOT put them together? They have insane chemistry and are our two best offensive players.

 

[enuck]

Maybe fans don't recall, or they weren't around for the split them up because they're sucking 10 games in a row days, but the experiments didn't last long. Rather than focusing on splitting them up, secondary scoring has always been the solution in my opinion.

 

[MattiOEdler]

What we do is hope that Daniel has a vintage year, not a slowly recovering from bad concussion year. If he's himself, and Kesler is himself? We just got 25% better than last year ...add in Edler's ears and back improving some we're 30% better.....Kassian, Booth, Schroeder improvements....all can make a difference....

We don't need to split up the Twins if we get some health and improvement from younger players maturing....

Higgins, Kesler, Schroeder gets Kesler the puck too....agree Kassian is a good passer as well.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

What we do is hope that Daniel has a vintage year, not a slowly recovering from bad concussion year. If he's himself, and Kesler is himself? We just got 25% better than last year ...add in Edler's ears and back improving some we're 30% better.....Kassian, Booth, Schroeder improvements....all can make a difference....

We don't need to split up the Twins if we get some health and improvement from younger players maturing....

Higgins, Kesler, Schroeder gets Kesler the puck too....agree Kassian is a good passer as well.

Yeah, problem is 90% of the NHL teams can look at their roster and be like ''hey if we get huge bounce back years from him and him and him we're going to be tough!''.

 

[Royal Canuck]

Batman can always get another Robin. Can Robin get another Batman?

I'm sure Superman or Green Lantern is hiring.

 

[AmazingNuck]

And who sets up Daniel? he needs a greta playmaker to feed him and that sure as hell isn't Kesler or Hansen. Problem is guys like Booth and Kassian need to be with a great playmaker. Love Kesler but wish he could set guys up a bit more than he has in recent years.

1. Don't underestimate Kesler's ability to pass when he actually trusts his linemates. He hasn't played with anyone who can finish like Daniel, but he can pass very well despite what you think. 50 assists playing with Raymond and Samuelsson- coincidentally, Samuelsson's the only ES forward that Kesler has played with in a consistent offensive role that can actually finish.

2. Daniel doesn't need to be set up. Let Kesler be the main sniper- his shot is less accurate, but it's faster and the LH-RH pass can set up more one timers for Kesler. Daniel's an underrated playmaker because he's seen as a finisher when he's naturally a playmaker- he only finishes so much because Henrik insists on being the playmaker.

3. Kassian is with the best playmaker on the team in my proposed line up.

4. Booth doesn't need a playmaker, he needs a linemate with whom he has chemistry. The only player on this roster that has shown any form of chemistry with Booth is Schroeder.

 

[AmazingNuck]

It's been tried before, and it failed.

You don't seperate the twins. They're special together for a reason.

The Sedins are so special together that they have led the Canucks to two straight first round playoff exits, were shut down against the 2011 Bruins and 2011 Predators, and have posted a combined negative +/- in the last four playoffs.

Remember the 2012 playoffs? We we're 0/3 when the Twins weren't together, 1/2 when they were. Not saying we would beat LA if we had the Twins together the whole series, but I think we would've won at least one more game.

It's like seperating Batman from Robin, sure they can do things alone, but they make eachother that much better together.

That 0/3 came when we didn't have Daniel at all, where the lines had to come together at an extremely critical time with very little preparation time, I don't think this is the proper way to dismiss the idea of splitting the Sedins.

If the Canucks run a lineup with the Sedins split up for an entire season and we were 0/3 with the Sedins split up and suddenly went 1/2 after putting the Sedins back together, then that'd make sense.

Your analogy is weak too. Batman has done more amazing things without Robin at his side than with, and Nightwing has done more after stepping out of Batman's shadow.

Anyways, the argument isn't that the Sedins will produce more if split up, but that the TEAM will produce more if the Sedins are split up.

Maybe fans don't recall, or they weren't around for the split them up because they're sucking 10 games in a row days, but the experiments didn't last long. Rather than focusing on splitting them up, secondary scoring has always been the solution in my opinion.

Secondary scoring is a problem because we load our first line with 3 of our 4 best offensive players and the 4th was injured basically all year. There isn't enough talent to go through the top 2 lines. The Sedins are the best playmakers on the team, which is why splitting them up makes sense. If the coach and team committed to building a lineup where the Sedins were split, the Canucks would be more balanced offensively and defensively.

What we do is hope that Daniel has a vintage year, not a slowly recovering from bad concussion year. If he's himself, and Kesler is himself? We just got 25% better than last year ...add in Edler's ears and back improving some we're 30% better.....Kassian, Booth, Schroeder improvements....all can make a difference....

We don't need to split up the Twins if we get some health and improvement from younger players maturing....

Higgins, Kesler, Schroeder gets Kesler the puck too....agree Kassian is a good passer as well.

The Canucks would still be a worse team than the 2011 Canucks team that couldn't get past the 2011 Bruins team. No guarantee that that 2011 Bruins team is better than the current Kings, Hawks, Penguins, etc.

 

[Ozone]

The Sedins are so special together that they have led the Canucks to two straight first round playoff exits, were shut down against the 2011 Bruins and 2011 Predators, and have posted a combined negative +/- in the last four playoffs.



Good post.

Most people here who disagree with splitting the twins up are not facing the glaring fact that the Sedins get shut down in the playoffs. Period.
Regular season is fine, but perhaps we need at least a handful of games where they are split up, in order to find some chemistry when the playoffs roll around.

 

[CherryToke]

I hope Torts has the balls to do it

 

[MS]

You'd think after watching these guys for 13 years that people would realize that splitting them up simply doesn't work. At all.

It's been done, and it shouldn't be done again barring injury.

 

[Canucker]

They have the kind of natural chemistry together that GM's search desperately for and that's been proven time and time again, yet we should split them up in order to balance the lineup? How about giving them some adequate support from other lines?

 

[Barney Gumble]

The Sedins are so special together that they have led the Canucks to two straight first round playoff exits

Guess it's Daniel's fault he took a cheap headshot by Keith and only played 2 out of the 5 games in the first of those first round playoff exits right? Recovery time for a concussion? Bah, he should have sucked it up and 'hit the ground running'. Note: he was 0-2-2 in those two games for a PPG pace

 

[Snatcher Demko]

I've been advocating it for a while now.

In the regular season it's never an issue because the competition (and the intensity) is inferior and they have more room and time to make plays. And obstruction generally gets called.

In a 7 game series the game changes. They don't have time to make plays, and I often wonder if splitting them up would force them to play a simpler style which is often more effective in a tight-checking series where the refs aren't making any obstruction calls.

It's never been uncommon for skill players to be moved throughout the lineup and paired with grinders and "big-body" types come playoff time. Why should the Sedins be treated differently?

Against bigger teams which play a defensive style the Sedins have been merely adequate offensively (and often shut down) and usually a liability defensively. That's not to say it would improve if they are split up but let's see what can happen.

If they are together, I do think Kassian should be given a long look as the triplet since at least he can be counted on to create space, and would allow Burrows to complement Kesler.

Kesler and Booth also have zero chemistry, and Booth did look pretty good next to Henrik (who doesn't, really?).

And all of the above comments of mine are made with the understanding that we definitely need secondary scoring help.

 

[biturbo19]

You'd think after watching these guys for 13 years that people would realize that splitting them up simply doesn't work. At all.

It's been done, and it shouldn't be done again barring injury.

You'd think so...but, apparently not.

And to an extent, i understand. We watch teams like the Hawks, Kings, etc. who have the ability to spread out their 2 best players (Kane, Toews), (Kopitar, Richards/Carter/Brown). And we're stuck to keeping the Twins together...but the fact we would like more balanced offense doesn't mean it's smart to split up the Twins.

They have the kind of natural chemistry together that GM's search desperately for and that's been proven time and time again, yet we should split them up in order to balance the lineup? How about giving them some adequate support from other lines?

This is pretty much the extent of it. Get a 2nd line that legitimately threatens offensively on a regular basis, and the whole 'Sedins get shut down' thing just evaporates because teams are forced to scramble and find ways to counter TWO offensive threats, rather than just the Twins.

And part of this imo, very well may be having someone of a younger/lesser/etc. disposition paired with the Twins.

If you can get someone like Kassian or Jensen scoring at near-Burrows clip alongside the Twins 5v5, that frees things up quite a bit. After all, the narrative has always been, 'anyone can put up points with the Twins'...now is the time to really press that to the test. If you could get a Brandan Saad like performance out of someone like Jensen on the 'top line'...that frees a lot of things up lower in the lineup to add more 'secondary scoring' in a meaningful way.