Why is Gretzky so underrated on HF?

[BlueBaron]

I do believe Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all time when considering careers. I also believe it's complex question with many layers.

Gretzky was a hockey savant, an absolute genius. Mario was a physical freak of nature.

It's game 7 of a hard fought SC final, and you can add either one in their prime to your roster for that single game. I don't think the answer is easily 100% Gretzky.

A previous poster made an important point, that Gretz "informed the game" meaning the Mario you are remembering would not have existed if not for Wayne and how he impacted the game. Many people attribute them playing together on Team Canada as being instrumental in Mario putting it all together.

The game would not be as it is today without Wayne which is why I always think modern comparisons make no sense.

 

[9GWG9]

It’s because the greater fan base has not even seen him play.

There wher the obvious other great players of the era, Lemieux was right there, Bossy could be argued as one of the purest goal scorers to play the game and so on but Gretzky...... He was on another level.

Let’s not forget he also used a stick carved from a tree in his yard basically the with respect to the amount of goals scored and the qualit6 of teammates you could take McDavid and put him on Tampa and he gets 200 point easily.

 

[Semantics]

A previous poster made an important point, that Gretz "informed the game" meaning the Mario you are remembering would not have existed if not for Wayne and how he impacted the game. Many people attribute them playing together on Team Canada as being instrumental in Mario putting it all together.

The game would not be as it is today without Wayne which is why I always think modern comparisons make no sen
se.

Oh please, the "Gretzky made Mario the man he is" narrative about the 1988 Canada Cup is so overblown and ridiculous. Don't be all lame like that. Lemieux had just won the Art Ross, Hart, and Lindsay. I think he was doing just fine before playing with Gretzky.

I hate the disrespect all the young people on HF have for Gretzky, but there's no need to diminish Lemieux to prop him up. Lemieux was on a similar level.

 

[Derg12]

People seem to think very highly of the stars of the 20th century, but compared to most, Gretzky doesn't seem to get a lot of respect. It seems people constantly try to downplay his numbers, as if they are meaningless because of his era, and believe he wouldn't be very good in today's game. Why is that?

There's only a handful of players in NHL history that can sniff his jock. Lemieux is first to come to mind and then a few others behind him. Of course, I'm just one random guy on the internet but after watching hockey since the 70s, Mario is pretty much it.... Crosby and Ovie follow behind... I'm not sure what the comparables would be for non-fowards, but Hasek and Lidstrom are there too.

 

[libertarian]

People seem to think very highly of the stars of the 20th century, but compared to most, Gretzky doesn't seem to get a lot of respect. It seems people constantly try to downplay his numbers, as if they are meaningless because of his era, and believe he wouldn't be very good in today's game. Why is that?

Because most posters never saw Gretzky play in his prime. If they did there would be no doubt he was the greatest player that ever lived. I say this as a Jet fan that saw Gretzky and the Oilers destroy my team every time they met in the PO's. I hated the Oilers but always respected the greatness of Gretzky. Greatest player that ever lived and there is no one today can even compare.

 

[BlueBaron]

Oh please, the "Gretzky made Mario the man he is" narrative about the 1988 Canada Cup is so overblown and ridiculous. Don't be all lame like that. Lemieux had just won the Art Ross, Hart, and Lindsay. I think he was doing just fine before playing with Gretzky.

I hate the disrespect all the young people on HF have for Gretzky, but there's no need to diminish Lemieux to prop him up. Lemieux was on a similar level.

If you don't think Mario studied Wayne and learned from him I can't help you. He would be pretty stupid to ignore that resource.

I'm not being "lame" (ROFL) just honest, sorry if it offends you. Nothing worse than reality getting in the way of your narrative.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Lemieux was also a better overall player.

Don't be silly. Gretzky was a much more effective player without the puck than Lemieux cruising around the blueline.

Gretzky was the Datsyuk of his day for intercepting passes and picking pockets.

Lemieux wasn't the guy taking the defensive zone draws during the Pens heydey, either. That would be Ronnie Franchise or Bryan Trottier who are two of the better faceoff artists in history. Plus guys who knew their way to their own end of the rink.

Gretzky was mediocre at faceoffs though.

 

[Warden of the North]

He didnt throw punches, therefor he cant possibly have been a good hockey player.

 

[ScaredStreit]

1) People didn't see him play
2) It's the cool thing to do/following the herd

Gretzky is the goat, and it's really not close.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

1) People didn't see him play
2) It's the cool thing to do/following the herd

Gretzky is the goat, and it's really not close.

This is why Gretzky if anything can be overrated. Lemieux and Orr were very close to Gretzky. It’s a hell of a lot easier to be the goat when your two closest competition have careers ravaged by injury. Gretzky had a healthy career

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Well the simple response is if you can underrate Gretzky you're making a mistake. I actually argue a lot with friends when discussing other sports that he is the most dominant athlete in the history of the "major" professional sports in NA. Sorry I don't really know how to put context on like the Russian Wrestler that went undefeated for like 15 years or whatever.

Gretzky was the smartest hockey player I have ever seen by a country mile.

 

[ScaredStreit]

This is why Gretzky if anything can be overrated. Lemieux and Orr were very close to Gretzky. It’s a hell of a lot easier to be the goat when your two closest competition have careers ravaged by injury. Gretzky had a healthy career

Orr plays a different position, tough to compare. Lemieux COULD have been as good...but at the end of the day he wasn't.

 

[Plural]

This is why Gretzky if anything can be overrated. Lemieux and Orr were very close to Gretzky. It’s a hell of a lot easier to be the goat when your two closest competition have careers ravaged by injury. Gretzky had a healthy career

Very close indeed. But it didn't really last long for either. Besides, compared to Gretzky Lemieux was wildly inconsistent.

Here's PPG at the end of the season for both guys, since the beginning of their careers:

Gretzky:
1.73
2.05
2.65
2.45
2.77
2.60
2.69
2.32
2.33
2.15
1.95
2.09
1.64
1.44
1.60
1.00
1.28
1.18
1.10
0.89

Lemieux:
1.37
1.78
1.70
2.18
2.62
2.08
1.73
2.05
2.67
1.68
2.30
1.67
1.77
1.29
1.36
0.90
0.85

Gretzky had 9 consecutive seasons where he didn't drop below 2.00PPG and 7 consecutive years where he didn't drop below 2.30PPG.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Very close indeed. But it didn't really last long for either. Besides, compared to Gretzky Lemieux was wildly inconsistent.

Here's PPG at the end of the season for both guys, since the beginning of their careers:

Gretzky:
1.73
2.05
2.65
2.45
2.77
2.60
2.69
2.32
2.33
2.15
1.95
2.09
1.64
1.44
1.60
1.00
1.28
1.18
1.10
0.89

Lemieux:
1.37
1.78
1.70
2.18
2.62
2.08
1.73
2.05
2.67
1.68
2.30
1.67
1.77
1.29
1.36
0.90
0.85

Gretzky had 9 consecutive seasons where he didn't drop below 2.00PPG and 7 consecutive years where he didn't drop below 2.30PPG.

Yes that’s because from age 24-29 Lemieux was never healthy. Whether it his chronic back or cancer.

 

[Plural]

Yes that’s because from age 24-29 Lemieux was never healthy. Whether it his chronic back or cancer.

Well, it might have been because of that. But he still was way more inconsistent. We can't really say for sure what are the exact reasons for it. You saying those inconsistencies are because of his injuries is just as legit as me saying that he simply wasn't as good as Gretzky.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Well, it might have been because of that. But he still was way more inconsistent. We can't really say for sure what are the exact reasons for it. You saying those inconsistencies are because of his injuries is just as legit as me saying that he simply wasn't as good as Gretzky.

Gretzky May have been better. I believe Lemieux was. But to say it’s not close is wrong imo.

 

[Plural]

Gretzky May have been better. I believe Lemieux was. But to say it’s not close is wrong imo.

Yeah. It's in the eye of the beholder. I get why you pick Lemieux (we've been over this so many times and it's because you simply like him as a player more) and it's fine. They were close enough for people to make a legitimate pick for Mario. It's kind of a tough sell objectively, but sports is not about 100% objectivity. I'd pick Saku Koivu for my team over Mats Sundin every day and twice on Sunday.

 

[Albatros]

After 1987 Lemieux was easily the better player, until then obviously not.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Yeah. It's in the eye of the beholder. I get why you pick Lemieux (we've been over this so many times and it's because you simply like him as a player more) and it's fine. They were close enough for people to make a legitimate pick for Mario. It's kind of a tough sell objectively, but sports is not about 100% objectivity. I'd pick Saku Koivu for my team over Mats Sundin every day and twice on Sunday.

Gretzky started off better. But Lemieux by his 4th season saw a similar progression as Gretzky did.
Gretzky went 164>212 and Lemieux went 168>199. After that 199 season Lemieux was never again fully healthy. Another reason I believe Lemieux too be better is imo the 90’s was a lot better quality of hockey and competion than the early 80’s

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

After 1987 Lemieux was easily the better player, until then obviously not.

Yeah once Lemieux turned 23 and Gretzky was 27 that was pretty much it.

 

[Plural]

Gretzky started off better. But Lemieux by his 4th season saw a similar progression as Gretzky did.
Gretzky went 164>212 and Lemieux went 168>199. After that 199 season Lemieux was never again fully healthy. Another reason I believe Lemieux too be better is imo the 90’s was a lot better quality of hockey and competion than the early 80’s

Those are all valid points.

 

[cajmonkey]

This is why Gretzky if anything can be overrated. Lemieux and Orr were very close to Gretzky. It’s a hell of a lot easier to be the goat when your two closest competition have careers ravaged by injury. Gretzky had a healthy career

You mean a healthy career apart from his back injury which got much worse after he was almost folded in half?

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Better than Mario and not close comments are reasons why some might think he's slightly overrated.

 

[Genghis Keon]

This is why Gretzky if anything can be overrated. Lemieux and Orr were very close to Gretzky. It’s a hell of a lot easier to be the goat when your two closest competition have careers ravaged by injury. Gretzky had a healthy career

Gretzky had a long career, but I wouldn't necessarily call it healthy. Gretzky wasn't really Gretzky after the Suter hit in the '91 Canada Cup. You can read a bit about his back injuries here: Gretzky could miss year Herniated disk may end career of Kings' standout

Obviously Orr and Lemieux had it worse and Gretzky didn't miss many games in his career, but Gretzky had widely reported back issues and wasn't the same after they started. Maybe it was a normal aging curve and he would have declined rapidly anyway, but it still amounted to 8 full seasons of non-Gretzky hockey that noticeably skews his (still incredible) rate stats and how people born in the 1980s view him. Lemieux and Orr were basically always incredible, though in more limited time, while Gretzky had a long stretch of his career where he was just one of the best and no longer transcendent.

 

[gretskidoo]

I generally think too much is made of it. Gretzky on his last legs heading into the clutch & grab era was still a top end player. Same with Bourque. And I don't think it's necessarily harder to play today than it was then.

If anything, it's much easier to play these days. For all the interference and hooks you get now(which isn't much compared to just 5 years ago), you'd consistently have guys holding onto the puck carrier and just being dragged behind them. That popular Forsberg highlight video is full it.

There's a reason so many smaller players are having success now. As good as these small guys are, they wouldn't be nearly that successful with 220lbs defenders literally holding onto them.

Well the simple response is if you can underrate Gretzky you're making a mistake. I actually argue a lot with friends when discussing other sports that he is the most dominant athlete in the history of the "major" professional sports in NA. Sorry I don't really know how to put context on like the Russian Wrestler that went undefeated for like 15 years or whatever.

Gretzky was the smartest hockey player I have ever seen by a country mile.

Karelin?

I can't say I know much about wrestling either but if the 887 wins and 2 losses record is accurate, that does sound like something that might be more impressive than Gretzky.