Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by SnowblindNYR, Apr 7, 2021.
Karlsson not even getting a nomination in 15-16 was f***ing absurd. He was top 2 with Kane
Yea, I agree. Not much has changed with winners since Orr, but we used to see defensemen make more of a case. Potvin finished 2nd to Clarke in '76, Langway finished 2nd to Gretzky in '84, Bourque finished 2nd twice in '87 and '90, and Howe finished 3rd in '86. Coffey, Bourque, Salming, Langway and Robinson also have top 5 finishes in the mid 70s to early 90s. But other than Pronger's win in 2000, the only top 5 defenseman Hart placements we've seen since 95-96 are Lidstrom getting a 4th place finish in '08, and Burns and Karlsson coming 4th and 5th in '17.
More likely to win the green jacket award than the Hart.
As for this thread, the obligatory Eddie Shore shout out is deserved. 4 time Hart Trophy winner as a D man.
Crazy to think of the D men the Bruins have had in their history — Shore, Orr, and Bourque.
They don’t put up flashy enough numbers (for their position sure but in general compared to the top forwards not) and Gia kitty degensive play isn’t flashy enough.
There’s certain politics and biases behind the mvp award for every sport. Hockey is no exception.
43 year's old Jaromir Jagr was closer in voting point that season.....
yea there has been a couple of very very good seasons for d-men out there that certainly would've atleast deserved nominations. Both Burns season 16-17 and that one from Karlsson 15-16. Pretty sure he was top 5 points that season as well if I remember it correctly?
Not sure how much advanced stats measures play away from the puck, but, there's thing Pronger was able to do that Hedman can't do now-a-days. Pronger was able to affect the game so much more because of how it was back then. All the can openers, and hooks to slow opposition down to allow his partner to get the puck out clean, if he wasn't doing it himself while evading forecheckers. Not saying Hedman couldn't do those things, just that he's not allowed. So if stats takes plays away from the puck into account Pronger may have an advantage over Hedman due to the amount he was allowed to impede. Lidstrom thrived in the same era as Pronger and affected the game away from the puck as much or more just with more subtlety, to give him his credit.
I had a family member who played with him during those years. My dad and I watched 70+ games of the blues back then. Despite being pretty young I could tell what he was doing was astonishing. Perhaps more hardcore fans of the late 90's-early 00's Blues, and 2010's Hawks can weigh in more, but my dad always said Quenville played 5D heavily and sprinkled the 6th D in. Really riding the horse that he had. Pronger was out on the ice ALL THE TIME for the blues. If it wasn't him, it was MacInnis, or it was both. Those early 00's blues teams had deep forward groups, a d-core led by 2 legends, and... Roman Turek as the starter. What a waste.
Karlsson is definitely the closest we've seen since. I think he should've gotten more consideration that year. I get his defence wasn't all world, but the best defence is a good offence and no one produced more offence from the back end than him, or arguably played a bigger role in the entire team offense than him that year. Outside of the measurable points, how he was able to just take the puck out of trouble in his end and take it to gain the opponents zone, allowing his team to change/gain momentum which leads to a goal, etc, he was incredible then.
EDIT: To answer the OP, why we haven't seen another one. Others have answered. It's heavily skewed towards forwards and there is biases in the media. It's gotten better, but there's always been biases towards certain players or situations. I'm not necessarily talking about nationalities, although that has played a part in the past, more so the old "earning it" adage. The year Steve Mason was a rookie, he played 60 games, won over 30 and had like 10 shutouts. The Jackets, I believe, weren't expected to make the playoffs but did on the back of his stellar play. Arguably he was "Most Valuable to his Team" but I don't think he got many, if any Hart votes, because how dare a rookie win that prestigious award. Or the year Tyler Myers won rookie of the year, Jimmy Howard had an excellent year, but he was a seasoned pro already compared to the 19 year old Myers. Things like that play(ed) a part in voting when it shouldn't. So for a d-man to win now, they need to be an all situations d-man, WHILE, putting up a PPG
I agree, Pronger is the most dominant defenseman I have seen since I started watching hockey. There is no d-man in the last 25 years I would pick ahead of him.
Isn't there like 8 different Norris winners past 10 years. There just isn't talent who separates from his peer.
Sound defensive play isn't as exciting as offense and thus doesn't resonate or stand out as much. The same reason why defensive defensemen aren't even in the Norris discussion, but offensive defensemen are.
The reason defensemen don't win the Hart is because most voters think they're voting for "league's best player" [that's what the players do when they vote for the Lester B. Pearson Ted Lindsey Award] and not "player judged most valuable to his team" which is something quite different. When it comes to "league's best player" stats > actual on-ice impact way too often. Short of a Pronger-like utterly dominating performance, no defenseman is getting consideration without getting to say 100 points.
Hell, look at the last dozen or so years of voting for the Norris vs. voting for the Hart.
2006 - Lidstrom wins the Norris; finishes 6th for the Hart with one 1st-place vote. Scott Niedermayer also gets a 1st-place vote; it's the last time two defensemen each get at least 1st-place vote.
2007 - Lidstrom wins the Norris; finishes 6th for the Hart with one 1st-place vote
2008 - Lidstrom wins the Norris; finishes 4th for the Hart, getting 2 1st-place votes. His 246 total points will be the last time any defenseman gets to 100 points in voting for the Hart until Burns gets 273 and Karlsson gets 258 in 2017.
2009 - Chara wins the Norris; finishes 8th for the Hart, getting 2 1st-place votes. It's the last time any defenseman has received more than 1.
2010 - Keith wins the Norris; he gets 3 5th-place votes for the Hart.
2011 - Lidstrom edges Chara for the Norris; combined, they get 0 1st, 0 2nd and 4 3rd for the Hart
2012 - Karlsson wins the Norris; finishes 8th for the Hart (0 1st, 0 2nd, 4 3rd)
2013 - Subban wins the Norris; finishes 13th for the Hart (0 1st, 0 2nd, 1 3rd)
2014 - Keith wins the Norris; finishes 15th for the Hart (0 1st, 0 2nd, 1 3rd)
2015 - Karlsson wins the Norris in tight voting over Doughty and Subban; finishes 9th for the Hart (0 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd). Doughty and Subban combine for a 3rd and 2 5ths.
2016 - Doughty wins the Norris; finishes 11th for the Hart (0 1st, 0 2nd, 2 3rd). Karlsson is runner-up for the Norris, finishes 9th for the Hart (0 1st, 1 2nd, 4 3rd)
2017 - Burns and Karlsson are 1-2 for the Norris; they finish 4th-5th for the Hart (Burns gets one 1st-place vote and 3 2nds; Karlsson gets 5 2nds). That was also the year Burns almost scored 30 goals.
2018 - Hedman wins the Norris; gets a lone 5th place vote for the Hart (Doughty, the runner-up for the Norris, gets a lone 4th)
2019 - Giordano wins the Norris; finishes 9th for the Hart (0 1st, 2 2nd, 5 3rd)
2020 - Josi wins the Norris; finishes 7th for the Hart (0 1st, 0 2nd, 1 3rd)
Until (unless) some defenseman goes off for some 30-70-100 season, a defenseman isn't getting top-3 consideration for the Hart - and even then, it'll be more about stats and less about whether he was really the most valuable player to his team.
Judge bias towards forwards and also there isn't someone on the blueline who is at the level of Pronger to sway the judges from choosing a forward.
Yes, Hedman should be getting consideration but he does not command a presence on the ice like Pronger did...that's why Pronger won it.
Defensemen are expected to be elite at both ends of the ice to even be considered while forwards can be extremely one way players and still win. And even then, defensemen with strong offensive output are dinged for being on the same team as top offensive forwards when it comes to MVP.
Pronger may not have been as consistent as Lidstrom, but when he was on top of his game he was an absolute monster offensively, defensively, and physically. If that is the bar for a modern defensemen to win MVP, I can't see it happening anytime soon.
There is no McDavid level talent on D in the league right now. In a more normal year, Hedman might get some hype for it going ppg, but not when McDavid is 1.75 ppg. For the more offensively-inclined defensemen, ppg just isn't impressive enough. If they could land within ~20 points of the leading forward scorer, it would start to become an argument.
Lidstrom was objectively a better all around defenceman.
They should create a defensive award for blueliners and shift the Norris to offensive zone play (which it is pretty much anyways).
Overall longevity and play Lidstrom was better.
Peak years, Pronger is more dominant than Lidstrom.
It's the same reason that a comedy never wins best picture, it's not right, but it's what's done.
None have been good enough recently.
Fox might get the most consideration in a long time if he keeps this scoring pace up.
The impact a truly outstanding goalie has on a team is a lot easier I think for voters to see and appreciate when compared to a defenseman
Top of the league is forward dominant other than Hedman right now, watch out for the young D on the rise though... there's a lot right now.
The most talented players are more likely to play a forward position.
An individual forward can create far more goals for than an individual defenseman can prevent. Individual forwards are simply more integral to team success.
Because the best player in the league hasn’t been a dman in a long time.
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