Why haven't we seen a defenseman win the Hart recently?

Sweetpotato

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Jan 10, 2014
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During his Hart season he was on another level. If metrics were as deeply defined back then as they are now it would've been disgusting.

Pronger a peaks in regular season and post season put him in the Orr/Bourque/etc level of players.
 
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Perfect_Drug

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Mar 24, 2006
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Pronger was just that dominant...

Lead the NHL in +/- twice in a 3 year stretch with St. Louis, and then went on to lead 3 different teams to the Finals in the span of 5 years

Lidstrom gets all the glory, but I think Pronger was the best Dman of his era

Most would say Pronger had the higher peak. Lidstrom had the better career.
 
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Video Nasty

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Mar 12, 2017
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Pronger had an awesome year, a Hart consideration worthy year, but people are overblowing how good it was.

He was indeed brilliant and helped lead the Blues to the best record in the league, but it took certain things happening that he had no control over to help his case.

If these things didn’t happen, he does not win that trophy.

No one scored 100 points.

If Jagr played a few more games and hit 100 points, he wins it.

Nearly every top forward (or high point getter) missed significant time. Jagr missed 19 games, Sakic missed 22 games, Forsberg missed 33 games, Lindros missed 27, Yashin missed the entire year after a 94 point Hart runner up season, Turgeon missed 30 games (he had 66 in 52. In a vacuum, this helps Pronger’s case).

Maybe Bure wins it if he plays more than 74 games and gets to 60 goals 100 points and wins the Art Ross instead of Jagr.

There wasn’t an ethereal goalie season (Hasek played 35 games).

Pronger won by a single vote. If Jagr in particular simply hits 100 points, he picks up the vote needed to win.

Great season, Pronger goes down in history with that trophy, but let’s not forget the context that led to the win.
 
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93LEAFS

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Because the most impactful players are typically forwards unless a goalie is so dominant that they massively eclipse their peers like Hasek.
 

Ivo

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Dec 29, 2008
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Because the best player in the league hasn’t been a dman in a long time.
It went to forwards even when the best player was a D. Take 1975, Bobby Orr wins the Art Ross as a Dman with 135 points and finishes 3rd in Hart voting. Even his teammate Esposito got the Hart over him twice.
 
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Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
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I’m surprised to see no one mention anything like this yet.

Pronger had an awesome year, a Hart consideration worthy year, but people are overblowing how good it was.

He was indeed brilliant and helped lead the Blues to the best record in the league, but it took certain things happening that he had no control over to help his case.

If these things didn’t happen, he does not win that trophy.

No one scored 100 points.

If Jagr played a few more games and hit 100 points, he wins it.

Nearly every top forward (or high point getter) missed significant time. Jagr missed 19 games, Sakic missed 22 games, Forsberg missed 33 games, Lindros missed 27, Yashin missed the entire year after a 94 point Hart runner up season, Turgeon missed 30 games (he had 66 in 52. In a vacuum, this helps Pronger’s case).

Maybe Bure wins it if he plays more than 74 games and gets to 60 goals 100 points and wins the Art Ross instead of Jagr.

There wasn’t an ethereal goalie season (Hasek played 35 games).

Pronger won by a single vote. If Jagr in particular simply hits 100 points, he picks up the vote needed to win.

Great season, Pronger goes down in history with that trophy, but let’s not forget the context that led to the win.

@Hockey Outsider said basically this about 30 posts up: Why haven't we seen a defenseman win the Hart recently?
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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Pronger had an awesome year, a Hart consideration worthy year, but people are overblowing how good it was.

He was indeed brilliant and helped lead the Blues to the best record in the league, but it took certain things happening that he had no control over to help his case.

If these things didn’t happen, he does not win that trophy.

No one scored 100 points.

If Jagr played a few more games and hit 100 points, he wins it.

Nearly every top forward (or high point getter) missed significant time. Jagr missed 19 games, Sakic missed 22 games, Forsberg missed 33 games, Lindros missed 27, Yashin missed the entire year after a 94 point Hart runner up season, Turgeon missed 30 games (he had 66 in 52. In a vacuum, this helps Pronger’s case).

Maybe Bure wins it if he plays more than 74 games and gets to 60 goals 100 points and wins the Art Ross instead of Jagr.

There wasn’t an ethereal goalie season (Hasek played 35 games).

Pronger won by a single vote. If Jagr in particular simply hits 100 points, he picks up the vote needed to win.

Great season, Pronger goes down in history with that trophy, but let’s not forget the context that led to the win.

This is all true, and it really puts a lot of emphasis on the fact that outside of a single perfect-storm season, Bobby Orr is the only defenseman to win the Hart since WWII.

Which is to say, for all intents and purposes defensemen simply don't win the trophy. Even when they have MVP quality seasons, they don't get the votes. That's just the way it is when comparing positions in hockey.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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During his Hart season he was on another level. If metrics were as deeply defined back then as they are now it would've been disgusting.

Pronger a peaks in regular season and post season put him in the Orr/Bourque/etc level of players.

That seem like a stretch, Orr scored 734 points while being +480 in 447 game during is prime, in the playoff he had 82 pts +52 in 60 games.

Pronger peak when he was playing is among the others in the step below too, that sound like true.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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It went to forwards even when the best player was a D. Take 1975, Bobby Orr wins the Art Ross as a Dman with 135 points and finishes 3rd in Hart voting. Even his teammate Esposito got the Hart over him twice.

Hart voter can overthink and take many element into account, but at least 74-75 Clarke had a ridiculous season that year has well.

That will have some shorthanded goals error in it but he was at even strength on the ice for about 98 goals for and only 19 goals against, that around 84% GF.

Bobby Orr like always was also just strange with 165GF but a more normal 85 goal against for a ratio of 66% GF, all time good, but Clarke goal suppression for is amount of ice time and offense was just strange.

If you take Bergeron Selke winning 2016-2017 season playing on one of the best line in hockey with the same rough estimate technic, 63 GF, 51 GA, Datsyuk on Detroit powerhouse winning the selke +41 season:
GF: 84, GA: 43, GF%: 66%

An competing for Art Ross type of offense while some ridiculous never seen before or since goal suppression I think.
 

Paul4587

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Jan 26, 2006
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Pronger was just that dominant...

Lead the NHL in +/- twice in a 3 year stretch with St. Louis, and then went on to lead 3 different teams to the Finals in the span of 5 years

Lidstrom gets all the glory, but I think Pronger was the best Dman of his era

Pronger had a higher peak but Lidstrom was the definition of consistency. He had what, one down season between 2000 and when he retired?
 

YpsiWings

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Feb 5, 2016
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Lidstrom gets all the glory, but I think Pronger was the best Dman of his era

Lidstrom gets all the glory but takes a decade to win a Norris, nice hot take. Lidstrom is the second best defenseman of all time, get out of here with Pronger was the best of his era.
 
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Maplebeasts

I See Demons!!!!!
Oct 26, 2014
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Because the best players in the league recently have been centers. There is no position as impactful or valuable as a center and that includes D. Crosby and McDavid are incredibly hard to beat for a dman.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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It's also a fact the general best player in the world tend to be a forward.

Exceptions would be Bobby Orr in the early '70s, Eddie Shore in the mid '30s and arguably Doug Harvey in the late '50s (close with Béliveau and Howe). Nicklas Lidstrom in the early '00s would also qualify, but only because the top of the pyramid was extremely weak in that short window (between Jagr's prime in Pittsburgh and Crosby/Ovechkin's arrival post lock-out). Some would nominate Denis Potvin in the late '70s, but I think Guy Lafleur was clearly recognized as the best player in the world in that timeframe.

Ray Bourque never got a sniff at this playing in the Gretzky/Lemieux era, and even Messier peaking at the same time too (not to mention Roy, but I'm focusing on skaters). Sprague Cleghorn played at the same time as Newsy Lalonde, Frank Nighbor and Cyclone Taylor.

Am I missing any relevant window here? Red Kelly in the early '50s had peak Gordie Howe against him. Chelios (and the other '90s defensemen) had Lemieux and a myriad of forwards like Lindros and Jagr who were considered bigger names. Even if we include Slava Fetisov who played in Europe, his prime coincided with Gretzky's Oilers era; tough luck! The '60s was dominated by Bobby Hull and was a weak decade for top defensemen. The late '30s and early '40s Syl Apps was most likely the general best player in the world, then Maurice Richard once WWI started and from then on until Gordie Howe's arrival.

Since the 2005 lock-out, canon has it that it was Crosby/Ovechkin, then McDavid now. Personally, I see a case for Chris Pronger based on his playoff impact between 2006 and 2010, but this will be unpopular. Later on Karlsson flirted with a level of dominance that could have resulted in getting such a high honor, but he fizzled out too early within his peak to be considered the general best player in the world.

This doesn't preclude a defenseman having a monstrous season and winning the Hart trophy, but it does make it more unlikely.
 
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YpsiWings

Registered User
Feb 5, 2016
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It's also a fact the general best player in the world tend to be a forward.

Exceptions would be Bobby Orr in the early '70s, Eddie Shore in the mid '30s and arguably Doug Harvey in the late '50s (close with Béliveau and Howe). Nicklas Lidstrom in the early '00s would also qualify, but only because the top of the pyramid was extremely weak in that short window (between Jagr's prime in Pittsburgh and Crosby/Ovechkin's arrival post lock-out).

Your first sentence shows exactly why forwards get the Hart. Also the same reason Woodson(Go Blue!) is the only defensive player to win the Heisman, and even he needed to play offense and special teams.

The simple reality is it is easy to evaluate points, and the player with the most must be best(not always true). Which is unfortunate because a lot of amazing players go unnoticed.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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Your first sentence shows exactly why forwards get the Hart. Also the same reason Woodson(Go Blue!) is the only defensive player to win the Heisman, and even he needed to play offense and special teams.

The simple reality is it is easy to evaluate points, and the player with the most must be best(not always true). Which is unfortunate because a lot of amazing players go unnoticed.

Even still, we're not all a bunch of clueless observers who can't see the value in a great defenseman and who are getting fooled by offensive stats. My point was more concrete: The actual best player in the world is usually a forward, straight up, even after adjusting for whatever "hidden" value a defenseman might have. Which defenseman exactly do you think was the best player in the world, and in what approximative window?

My controversial hot take is that Chris Pronger was the best player in the world from around 2006 to 2010, because he'd be my #1 pick for a playoff run.
 

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