Why has the USA become a sought after destination for young Canadians?

[Postulates]

Fewer games and especially playing against better players from 18 years old.

For an elite talent, CHL is very good at 16-17 but then you have to play against 16-17 players at 18-19, not ideal to progress.

CHL needs to change its system. Develop senior regional leagues.

USHL on the contrary must expand. Expand its system by extending to two zones (Pacific, North East).

ECHL must disappear for regional leagues accessible to junior players.

Yeah I dislike how the USHL is strictly midwest teams, not many attractive destinations in the midwest

If there was an east coast team and I was good enough to play more than AAA->ACHA d2 i would have immediately tendered with an east coast team

 

[Peasy]

Freedom of choice. They can pick where they want to go in the NCAA. In the CHL, youre often tied to whatever org drafts you, and theres a long list of orgs not being that great at development.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I feel like in recent years, we have seen a number of good Canadian prospects (ie. Savoie, Power, Fantilli, Sillinger, Celebrini) decide to play in the USA rather than in the Canadian major junior system. While I understand COVID may have played some part in this, I fail to see how a prospect (especially a top end prospect) would benefit from playing in the States.

Any insight on this would be greatful!

The biggest benefit is that you get to pick your spot. They are specifically opting for the Chicago Steel/University of Michigan, for instance. They're not opting for "USHL as a whole and NCAA hockey as a whole".

The Major Junior route forces kids to go play for whatever team drafts them. When you're Adam Fantilli and you're the best player in your region as a Minor player, that means you're going to the worst team, who may just be going through a rebuild or it may be a gongshow that you don't trust for your development.

College hockey is an appealing option with very high-level competition (players are as old as 24) and the USHL isn't some rinky-dink league like it may have been perceived 20 years ago prior that.

And that's for the Ontario kids. When you go over to Western Canada, the WHL has an absolutely brutal travel schedule because the league's footprint covers such a large geographic region. Look at the Championship this year, you have a team in Winnipeg, MB going up against a team in Kent, WA. A kid can get drafted to a place that's like a 12 hour drive from home, and I'm not sure how easily accessible and often flights are for their family to come out and see them considering a lot of these Junior hockey cities are pretty small. The BCHL is a high-end league and they can go play NCAA hockey afterwards. The AJHL is a bit below but a good league as well. Certainly better than any other Junior A leagues in Canada. So kids from those regions may look at the lighter travel schedule as a big appeal, and then again, get to pick their spot for college hockey.

The Major Junior leagues probably won't change their approach because it's what they've done since who knows how long and many kids will still opt for those leagues. They are very protective of making sure all the teams remain viable and able to get good as opposed to the same few teams in the championship every year (hard to sell season tickets for a junior team that is never going to be any good).. But times are definitely changing, as they're no longer the only place around for where you go if you want to make the NHL.

 

[57special]

Lifestyle in college hockey would be far more appealing to me than schlepping around on buses in the prairies. Better hockey, better towns to live in (usually), better training facilities and arenas, less travel, surrounded by other young, smart people(including young smart, women), all the while making connections that will help you for the rest of your life. Oh, and you get to improve your mind and actually learn something besides hockey. sure sounds good to me.

There is no doubt that it's not for everyone. Some guys simply aren't cut out for post secondary schooling. While most college hockey players are not be found in Quantum Computing class, they do have to take legitimate courses, for the most part. If i was the Dad of a talented Canadian youth hockey player, I would certainly encourage him to go the college route rather than the CHL if he had even a smidgeon of academic ability. Too bad that the calibre of the Canadian University's hockey is not good enough to attract prospects.

 

[Torts]

The USHL is the biggest reason here. In the past players wanted to go the NCAA route but the seasons prior to being eligible for NCAA were tricky to navigate. Now with the USHL pumping out NHL draft talent and showing it's one of the top junior leagues in the world, players are more comfortable playing there for a season or two before enrolling at a NCAA program.

As mentioned before, it's 100% up to the players preference and what is a priority to them. Take Michael Hage for example. He was a first round pick by Kitchener, chose not to report and was deemed defective. Maybe the schooling or structure of NCAA route was more important vs the pros of the CHL. With the USHL being even more appealing now, him and his family must have thought two seasons in Chicago (USHL) will prepare him for NHL Draft then he can enroll at Michigan and play in NCAA while still having another possible plan of reporting to the CHL team that now owns his rights. In life, everyone loves options. Going USHL and then NCAA keeps options open depending how the player develops where as going CHL eliminates other options.

For some context - I'm both a NCAA (Michigan) and CHL (Kitchener) fan. It's interesting following these prospects and see what is important to what player.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The reduced schedule is a factor as well - NCAA averages 35-40 games and CHL is 68 games before playoffs.

Simply put it reduces the chance of an injury.

I know they'll never change it as "if it was good enough for Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid etc. etc. etc. etc. then why change what works?" but I think the Canadian Major Junior system is a bit silly if they were starting the system de novo. It's essentially a mini-NHL with a long schedule, entry draft, trades between teams and then four best-of-seven playoff series. College teams have much more time to practice and spend time in the weight room. Game reps are of course important for any player but I think there's diminishing returns to playing so many, from what I see there's a lot less structure and discipline with teams playing very up and down hockey, and as you mention there's greater risk of injury.

 

[StreetHawk]

I feel like in recent years, we have seen a number of good Canadian prospects (ie. Savoie, Power, Fantilli, Sillinger, Celebrini) decide to play in the USA rather than in the Canadian major junior system. While I understand COVID may have played some part in this, I fail to see how a prospect (especially a top end prospect) would benefit from playing in the States.

Any insight on this would be greatful!

Comes down to when you think you can make the nhl imo. Unless it’s as a teenager, I would also go ncaa route.
Chl route:
Your level of competition from 17-18 is higher vs staying in a bchl or USHL league.
But from 18-19 your love of competition given your development is not as high as vs older players on the ncaa.

Ncaa is the opposite, your competition level pre ncaa isn’t going to be as good but once you arrive it’s better.

Plus, the facilities ( on ice and off ice) at a big ncaa hockey program are going to be better than a chl club. They simply have more money to put into their sports programs.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah I dislike how the USHL is strictly midwest teams, not many attractive destinations in the midwest

If there was an east coast team and I was good enough to play more than AAA->ACHA d2 i would have immediately tendered with an east coast team

East Coast has the Prep School circuit where a lot of top players will go until college hockey.

The one that's really lacking is basically anything out west. Traditionally, there were no hockey hotbeds west of the Mississippi, but that's starting to change... I think like 4 kids from the LA Junior Kings Minor Hockey program were invited to the USNDTP camp this year. Right now if those guys aren't getting USNDTP invites they have to go to a midwestern city far from home in the USHL or head up north to the WHL (or BCHL especially now they're breakway).

The USHL may want to expand to the Pacific, but the fairly light travel schedule is likely a nice appeal at the moment.

 

[Bubbles]

I know they'll never change it as "if it was good enough for Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid etc. etc. etc. etc. then why change what works?" but I think the Canadian Major Junior system is a bit silly if they were starting the system de novo. It's essentially a mini-NHL with a long schedule, entry draft, trades between teams and then four best-of-seven playoff series. College teams have much more time to practice and spend time in the weight room. Game reps are of course important for any player but I think there's diminishing returns to playing so many, from what I see there's a lot less structure and discipline with teams playing very up and down hockey, and as you mention there's greater risk of injury.

This is a major reason why the BCHL left Hockey Canada. HC seems to be more worried about lawsuits than fundamentally changing or at least look at improving their junior hockey model.

East Coast has the Prep School circuit where a lot of top players will go until college hockey.

The one that's really lacking is basically anything out west. Traditionally, there were no hockey hotbeds west of the Mississippi, but that's starting to change... I think like 4 kids from the LA Junior Kings Minor Hockey program were invited to the USNDTP camp this year. Right now if those guys aren't getting USNDTP invites they have to go to a midwestern city far from home in the USHL or head up north to the WHL (or BCHL especially now they're breakway).

The USHL may want to expand to the Pacific, but the fairly light travel schedule is likely a nice appeal at the moment.

That's a good point, a fair amount of kids have come from California now. The WHL and BCHL have always had some of these kids play for their teams. Don't know if California will support a junior league circuit in terms of fan attendance.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Lifestyle in college hockey would be far more appealing to me than schlepping around on buses in the prairies. Better hockey, better towns to live in (usually), better training facilities and arenas, less travel, surrounded by other young, smart people(including young smart, women), all the while making connections that will help you for the rest of your life. Oh, and you get to improve your mind and actually learn something besides hockey. sure sounds good to me.

There is no doubt that it's not for everyone. Some guys simply aren't cut out for post secondary schooling. While most college hockey players are not be found in Quantum Computing class, they do have to take legitimate courses, for the most part. If i was the Dad of a talented Canadian youth hockey player, I would certainly encourage him to go the college route rather than the CHL if he had even a smidgeon of academic ability. Too bad that the calibre of the Canadian University's hockey is not good enough to attract prospects.

Listen to Cale Makar's dad talk about the NCAA experience. He had a really great interview on it. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[StreetHawk]

Listen to Cale Makar's dad talk about the NCAA experience. He had a really great interview on it. I'll see if I can find it.

Vast majority of players who make the NHL won't do so until their 20's. So, would you prefer to spend your time from 18-22 mixed between the CHL for another 1-2 years after you get drafted and then in the A for another couple of seasons on long bus rides playing the long schedule?

Or at 18, you get to train at much better facilities at these hockey programs and get started on an education that you may need should your pro career not pan out as hoped?

Plus, you get to pick your school as an 18 year old and not go to somewhere you don't want to. Kids from the prairies may prefer to remain somewhat close to home and not go to the USA or BC. Vice versa the other way. A kid from the BC Lower mainland may not like going to the prairies. Major difference in the winter weather.
But, getting to choose your coach is a big deal IMO. So, that would be the main selling point to me. Who has had success in developing players to the Pros? Plus, who recruits talented players for me to play with as well.

 

[Ban Hammered]

Doesn't this harm other USHL teams from recruiting? All the best players will end up on Chicago. Doesn't that create a super team?

They do have a draft. 2 in fact. There is a futures draft for kids form a specific birth year (16 yr olds) and then another draft where they can draft from anywhere. It's not just that Chicago is recruiting, any team can technically recruit by signing guys to a tender offer. If that's accepted, the team forfeits their first round pick in the futures draft. If a second player is tendered, they forfeit their 2nd round pick.

USHL Draft - USHL

ABOUT THE USHL DRAFT PROCESS The USHL Draft takes place during the first week of May each year and is completed in two "Phases". Phase I of the Draft

ushl.com

What a USHL tender means and which players are tendered now

Take a year-by-year and team-by-team look at the USHL's tender history and what goes into the tendering process

www.therinklive.com

 

[Melrose Munch]

Going to school is more fun, starting the NHL at 22/23 years old is easier as you're bigger.

This is an indictment of the Canadian University system too. Why can't guys go there to jump to the NHL?

 

[bossram]

College hockey is far better developmentally than the CHL. Better resources, more time for practice and training.

But if you go CHL, you can't go to the NCAA. So prospects opt for the USHL.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Based on the recent problems I'm not sure I would let my kid go to the CHL either.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I feel like in recent years, we have seen a number of good Canadian prospects (ie. Savoie, Power, Fantilli, Sillinger, Celebrini) decide to play in the USA rather than in the Canadian major junior system. While I understand COVID may have played some part in this, I fail to see how a prospect (especially a top end prospect) would benefit from playing in the States.

Any insight on this would be greatful!

Fewer games, lighter travel schedule, and at least Chicago Steel and USNTDP have amazing off-ice training for the players to prep them for their next steps after the USHL. Playing in the USHL also allows for a player to go the NCAA route.

It's not like the US programs are bad. I don't know if you've noticed, but the demographics of the NHL are changing quite a bit.

 

[Bubbles]

They do have a draft. 2 in fact. There is a futures draft for kids form a specific birth year (16 yr olds) and then another draft where they can draft from anywhere. It's not just that Chicago is recruiting, any team can technically recruit by signing guys to a tender offer. If that's accepted, the team forfeits their first round pick in the futures draft. If a second player is tendered, they forfeit their 2nd round pick.

Chicago still has a stranglehold on the top Canadian kids though. I guess they are like the London Kinghts.

Going to school is more fun, starting the NHL at 22/23 years old is easier as you're bigger.

This is an indictment of the Canadian University system too. Why can't guys go there to jump to the NHL?

Because University hockey in Canada is 2 or 3 levels down from CHL. It's usually filled with CHLer's that were never drafted.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

This thread is a really interesting read comparing systems, I feel like options and competition is always good for players and will force the leagues to stay on their toes for development/progress as well. Someone else has to start modeling after Chicago Steel, right? For example.

 

[DaveG]

Ok with the NCAA allowing for athletes to profit from their likeness. Why does the NCAA still not allow CHL players to head over?

It makes zero sense now, considering the money CHL players got was living and rent, they didn't actually get a salary it's called stipend for a reason. NCAA would be smart to open the flood gates.

I'm honestly waiting for the lawsuit to come against the NCAA due to this. That said the scholarships that CHL players get to CIS schools should they not turn pro somewhat negates the argument of lost opportunity that a player looking to go to the NCAA from the CHL could argue.

 

[StreetHawk]

I'm honestly waiting for the lawsuit to come against the NCAA due to this. That said the scholarships that CHL players get to CIS schools should they not turn pro somewhat negates the argument of lost opportunity that a player looking to go to the NCAA from the CHL could argue.

CHL should be changing their Stipends for players to paying them for NIL. Help each kid create a social media account and have them market the team. Players get paid that way and can potentially eliminate the scholarships. Kids get money to pay their way. Allows kids to keep their NCAA status.

CHL may then be the league to be for 16-19 year olds. Then some of the better ones go off to NCAA to continue their career. Get better competition as a teenager since the CHL is tougher than USHL or tier 2 in Canada. Then can either move onto the NHL if good enough or opt for the NCAA if they are academically eligible. Or can continue another year in the CHL.

But, I would still say that I'd rather my child go NCAA simply because they get to choose their program and not be bound by a draft which may mean going to a poorly run chl team and getting traded in season. Finish HS and then pick the program in the NCAA that they want.

 

[WarriorofTime]

This thread is a really interesting read comparing systems, I feel like options and competition is always good for players and will force the leagues to stay on their toes for development/progress as well. Someone else has to start modeling after Chicago Steel, right? For example.

The Steel also play less than an hour away from a major international airport. Relatively easy for the kids' parents to hop on a quick jet from Toronto which likely has a million flights a day to Chicago O'Hare and come in for the weekend to see their kid play. I'm sure that plays a part in it as well.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Cause education is also important.

Question.

So if a player is in college on a 4 year program l, but gets drafted makes the nhl, has 3 years left in his program, how does he go about completing his program?

For each year in the CHL you play, you get 1 free year of schooling at any college.

Going to school is more fun, starting the NHL at 22/23 years old is easier as you're bigger.

This is an indictment of the Canadian University system too. Why can't guys go there to jump to the NHL?

At this point in time it's just not that good of an option.

You would have to take accelerated classes in order to go there before your draft to play in that league, which might be comparable to the USHL, but if you're going through all that work, you're going to the NCAA.

BCHL, especially now that it's separated from the CHL might start drawing Canadian kids back.

Can't remember if both Tanevs went this way, but one of them went to the USports way and went to the NHL afterwards.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I'm honestly waiting for the lawsuit to come against the NCAA due to this. That said the scholarships that CHL players get to CIS schools should they not turn pro somewhat negates the argument of lost opportunity that a player looking to go to the NCAA from the CHL could argue.

That's a much bigger lawsuit that goes beyond CHL Hockey Players. It gets into the whole discussion of whether the NCAA is to remain for non-professional players across all sports in general, and if so, what constitutes the determination as to whether a player is "professional" based on the sort of contracts they are able to sign across sports. A player getting compensated for their Name, Image and Likeness is a bit of a different case, as that's not really no different than a normal college kid with a monetized YouTube channel for instance (of course the whole thing is just pay-for-play with very little pretext, but the NCAA appears to have thrown its hands up and said "whatever, do what you want" now post California legislation).

CHL should be changing their Stipends for players to paying them for NIL. Help each kid create a social media account and have them market the team. Players get paid that way and can potentially eliminate the scholarships. Kids get money to pay their way. Allows kids to keep their NCAA status.

CHL may then be the league to be for 16-19 year olds. Then some of the better ones go off to NCAA to continue their career. Get better competition as a teenager since the CHL is tougher than USHL or tier 2 in Canada. Then can either move onto the NHL if good enough or opt for the NCAA if they are academically eligible. Or can continue another year in the CHL.

But, I would still say that I'd rather my child go NCAA simply because they get to choose their program and not be bound by a draft which may mean going to a poorly run chl team and getting traded in season. Finish HS and then pick the program in the NCAA that they want.

CHL doesn't want non-NHL players jumping ship to NCAA teams when they are 18/19 no more than the NCAA wants kids to be able to do both and possibly just never come to the school they committed to when they realize they can just stick around Juniors and go to the NHL.

 

[landy92mack29]

CHL should be changing their Stipends for players to paying them for NIL. Help each kid create a social media account and have them market the team. Players get paid that way and can potentially eliminate the scholarships. Kids get money to pay their way. Allows kids to keep their NCAA status.

CHL may then be the league to be for 16-19 year olds. Then some of the better ones go off to NCAA to continue their career. Get better competition as a teenager since the CHL is tougher than USHL or tier 2 in Canada. Then can either move onto the NHL if good enough or opt for the NCAA if they are academically eligible. Or can continue another year in the CHL.

But, I would still say that I'd rather my child go NCAA simply because they get to choose their program and not be bound by a draft which may mean going to a poorly run chl team and getting traded in season. Finish HS and then pick the program in the NCAA that they want.

A lot of people are acting like most kids get to pick the programs they want where that's only the case for the future nhl draft picks. Most of the kids take what they can get and lots don't even get one where chl even if you don't go pro you at least have schooling/trade school paid for. If my kid/relative was a high end player I'd definitely choose the chl route it's the kids who are either undersized, late bloomers or the mid round chl picks where college makes sense. You need to actually be a elite junior A player to actually get a commitment, especially to a good school. I say this as someone who scouts for a AJHL team and has a cousin who went the SJHL-USHL/NAHL-NCAA(Maine) route


Also most CHL programs have elite facilities that are better than most NCAA schools. Most schools aren't the Michigans, BUs, BCs or Denvers. Some have argued that kids don't get to pick their chl team which is largely true but it's the same for kids going the junior A route and they get traded a lot more than Major Junior kids do. Also have to pay to play in most cases. Everyones path is different but for me if you actually are good enough to go on to pro hockey CHL is the way to go. If you're undersized/late bloomer/likely not a future pro level kid then taking the longer path is probably best....assuming you're still good enough to actually get a scholarship.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Myself I would go the major junior route... BUT I do have to say, a year or 2 or 3 or 4 going to a huge university in the States living on campus sounds intriguing as hell lol