Why didnt we give the Sedins more on ice help?

[Jyrki21]

Wasn't Dave Nonis referred to as "Dave "No-nuts" I really enjoy this aggressive mindset and i guarantee you the players in the locker room enjoy it 100x more.

Nonis' refusal to make dumb, short-sighted moves that the owners wanted is basically why the Canucks were a league powerhouse a couple years later.

This whole discussion is basically just an apologia for Benning going all-in with a bubble team. Many of the same people applauding this also, weirdly, criticize Gillis for trading picks while he had a Cup contender. The same ones who laud the performance of the GM because "prospect pool" are the same ones diminishing the importance of prospects as they leave town. The motivation is pretty transparent.

 

[Hansen]

This thread is certainly a good counter-argument to over-valuing your picks. We wasted two elite players prime so we could draft at the end of the first round.

It is only obvious because we can look practically 10 years back and identify those drafts as shit not only for us, but in general.

What if the 2012 draft were 2015 instead? We miss out on a Brock Boeser instead of a Brendan Gaunce

Our window closed very quickly after 2011, and Gillis was even aware of it. He was fired in part because he had identified it and said it was time to rebuild. Prolonging the inevitable by adding more and more perimeter pieces is how you end up being a Calgary or Edmonton

 

[vancityluongo]

Higgins and Lapierre were perfect deadline pickups in 2011.

2012, yeah, he should've gone after Jeff Carter. Hodgson + a 1st probably gets it done.

But after the blowback Gillis got on trading the 1st for Ballard, I think he was hesitant to move any more 1st rounders post-2010. The team was also set on being perpetual contenders vs blowing it all on one run. However, I think by 2012 Gillis already had his mindset shifted on re-vamping the scouting, realizing that the lack of high end prospects would eventually catch up to them. Remember, he wanted to fully rebuild after 2013.

 

[Intangibos]

Gillis was too conservative
The fact that we had our own first round pick in 2010/11/12 was a joke

While I agree with the idea that we should have made more moves, we needed better wingers on our 4th line, how exactly would you have improved the team? We went into the playoffs in 2010/11 a fair bit over the cap do to LTIR magic. Just because the have the picks, we have to actually find a way to spend them as well.

Who on our team would you have jettisoned to make room from the 2010/11 roster? Bolduc, Oreskovich, Tambo etc weren't exactly making the big bucks. That roster was insane and Higgins/Lapierre were great additions. IIRC Malhotra went down after the deadline, didn't he?

2011/2012 Carter would have been a nice pickup though

 

[FreeMcdavid]

Nonis' refusal to make dumb, short-sighted moves that the owners wanted is basically why the Canucks were a league powerhouse a couple years later.

This whole discussion is basically just an apologia for Benning going all-in with a bubble team. Many of the same people applauding this also, weirdly, criticize Gillis for trading picks while he had a Cup contender. The same ones who laud the performance of the GM because "prospect pool" are the same ones diminishing the importance of prospects as they leave town. The motivation is pretty transparent.

trading away a protected 1st round pick, 2nd round pick 3rd round pick and Tyler Madden for JT Miller and Tyler Tofolli is hardly what i would call "going all in"

Its for sure putting chips in the pot and betting on your cards, but its not even close to going all in

 

[Britton]

The Canucks gave plenty of help to the Sedin's and consistently improved the team in the offseason from 2008-2011. They just did it in the summer and acquired players that would help for more than 20 games.

 

[TraderJim]

Some revisionist history going on, wow. Team was nearly the best team in almost every statistical category and people are now saying the Sedins didn't have help.

It sucks getting old and seeing history being warped to fit narratives.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

this thread is so stupid

somehow adding miller and toffoli is going for it but adding hamhuis, ballard, malhotra, torres (former 27 goal scorer) for the 3rd line, then at the deadline adding higgins as the 10th fwd (former 27 goal scorer) and lappy as the 4th line center is being too cautious?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

the one moment of too much caution was passing up seidenberg at the 2010 deadline and going with the much cheaper andrew alberts instead

that might have swung back to back cups

 

[Hammer79]

It is only obvious because we can look practically 10 years back and identify those drafts as shit not only for us, but in general.

What if the 2012 draft were 2015 instead? We miss out on a Brock Boeser instead of a Brendan Gaunce

Our window closed very quickly after 2011, and Gillis was even aware of it. He was fired in part because he had identified it and said it was time to rebuild. Prolonging the inevitable by adding more and more perimeter pieces is how you end up being a Calgary or Edmonton

This isn't just a 2011-2012 argument. For much of their career, they had the likes of Burrows, Anson Carter and other NHL journeymen as linemates. Maybe we get past Chicago one of those times if we had an actual sniper on RW, not a player that was simply playing further up the lineup than he should be. They played here for over a decade and a half, and we never found the 3rd Sedin.

As for the 'what if it was Brock' argument.... Joe Nieuwendyk went to the Dallas Stars for Jarome Iginla, Joe goes on to lift the cup in '99 with the Stars with 11g 10a in the playoffs. Sometimes you have to give up a blue chip to put yourself in a position to win a cup. These are the gambles that GM's jobs rest on. Gillis got caught being too conservative and squandered a window.

 

[RandV]

This isn't just a 2011-2012 argument. For much of their career, they had the likes of Burrows, Anson Carter and other NHL journeymen as linemates. Maybe we get past Chicago one of those times if we had an actual sniper on RW, not a player that was simply playing further up the lineup than he should be. They played here for over a decade and a half, and we never found the 3rd Sedin.

As for the 'what if it was Brock' argument.... Joe Nieuwendyk went to the Dallas Stars for Jarome Iginla, Joe goes on to lift the cup in '99 with the Stars with 11g 10a in the playoffs. Sometimes you have to give up a blue chip to put yourself in a position to win a cup. These are the gambles that GM's jobs rest on. Gillis got caught being too conservative and squandered a window.

Hah, that specific trade was pretty much a once in a lifetime deal. Sure it's fun to look back at but you can't really use it as a 'what a GM should have done' example, and never mind starting to look at the other end of the scale which we would have been on had Nonis listened to orders and traded for Richards.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Higgins and Lapierre were perfect deadline pickups in 2011.

2012, yeah, he should've gone after Jeff Carter. Hodgson + a 1st probably gets it done.

But after the blowback Gillis got on trading the 1st for Ballard, I think he was hesitant to move any more 1st rounders post-2010. The team was also set on being perpetual contenders vs blowing it all on one run. However, I think by 2012 Gillis already had his mindset shifted on re-vamping the scouting, realizing that the lack of high end prospects would eventually catch up to them. Remember, he wanted to fully rebuild after 2013.

This was very much Gillis’ mindset.

And like you said, he was ready to sell high on our vets and rebuild in 2013.

The mindset behind his retention of picks makes perfect sense. The drafting was weak, so people look back at it as a mistake, but that’s with the benefit of hindsight.

If things went just a little bit differently, we’re the 2011 Stanley Cup champs with all of our first round picks still in our possession.

We were at the point where we just needed one bounce or one injury or one hit to go differently, we weren't in desperate need of a Jeff Carter or some other star player.

 

[Bubbles]

This isn't just a 2011-2012 argument. For much of their career, they had the likes of Burrows, Anson Carter and other NHL journeymen as linemates. Maybe we get past Chicago one of those times if we had an actual sniper on RW, not a player that was simply playing further up the lineup than he should be. They played here for over a decade and a half, and we never found the 3rd Sedin.

Honestly, the first half of their career, they were capable second liners, it wasn't really a priority to find them a permanent winger there when anyone fit (Klatt, Jason King) and they were just fine.

Only when they were bona fide 1st liners from 2009 on did the Canucks try to solve that problem. But as memory recalls, the coach would mix in anyone that got hot...Vigneault, Desjardins, Green would all just mix the lines anyways.

When they actually signed a permanent guy to play with the Sedins, well, look at how well that turned out. Loui also never got a fair shake at playing with the Sedins anyways. They tried him there for 5 games and gave up immediately. Benning saw the Olympics and got rope-a-doped into signing him to that contract.

 

[vanuck]

Given how he saw the need for a rebuild after losing to SJS in 2013, Gillis definitely would've been better off moving his 1st rounder in 2012 (and probably even 2013) for another scoring centre like Jeff Carter at the deadline to go for it.

Bear in mind that was a very different situation than the one this team's in now though. We haven't even established ourselves as a playoff team yet and we're already giving up 1st and 2nd round picks.

 

[Hammer79]

Honestly, the first half of their career, they were capable second liners, it wasn't really a priority to find them a permanent winger there when anyone fit (Klatt, Jason King) and they were just fine.

Only when they were bona fide 1st liners from 2009 on did the Canucks try to solve that problem. But as memory recalls, the coach would mix in anyone that got hot...Vigneault, Desjardins, Green would all just mix the lines anyways.

When they actually signed a permanent guy to play with the Sedins, well, look at how well that turned out. Loui also never got a fair shake at playing with the Sedins anyways. They tried him there for 5 games and gave up immediately. Benning saw the Olympics and got rope-a-doped into signing him to that contract.

Yeah, LE was a swing and a miss, but that wasn't until 2016 and foot-speed was becoming an issue for both Daniel and Henrik by this point. They weren't ever the best skaters even in their prime, but they had lost a step by 2016. LE was the football equivalent of a 'Hail Mary', one final attempt to get them some help. It could have come earlier. Hindsight might be 20/20 on who we picked, but value wise, I think that where we were picking late in the first round wasn't worth not upgrading the 1RW instead of picking the BPA in the 20's.

 

[Hammer79]

Given how he saw the need for a rebuild after losing to SJS in 2013, Gillis definitely would've been better off moving his 1st rounder in 2012 (and probably even 2013) for another scoring centre like Jeff Carter at the deadline to go for it.

Bear in mind that was a very different situation than the one this team's in now though. We haven't even established ourselves as a playoff team yet and we're already giving up 1st and 2nd round picks.

The Blue Jackets picked up rentals last year and it helped them down a powerful Lightning team in 4 straight. That playoff series win helped them promote the sport in Columbus this year. For us though, I think there is a pretty good shot at making the playoffs as long as they can start winning games they are supposed to be winning down the stretch. Missing BB is going to be huge, and this trade helps us tread water in the meantime.

I see this move as replacing Ferlund's LTIR$ and that's how he will be re-signed, Ferlund is going to get shut down Chris Pronger style IMO. If he signs an extension, we aren't going to miss a late 2nd and a late 4th.

The Lightning obviously thought we were going to make the playoffs this year, or else they probably would have held on to that pick to see if it turned into an unprotected 2021.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Didn't that team have like 42 cents in cap space?

Yes.

Also Gillis was not part of the old-boys-club that is the NHL management cohort.

Obviously the downfall was not canning more of the old-boys-club from our front office asap. Especially in scouting positions.

 

[Phil Brooks]

While I agree with the idea that we should have made more moves, we needed better wingers on our 4th line, how exactly would you have improved the team? We went into the playoffs in 2010/11 a fair bit over the cap do to LTIR magic. Just because the have the picks, we have to actually find a way to spend them as well.

Who on our team would you have jettisoned to make room from the 2010/11 roster? Bolduc, Oreskovich, Tambo etc weren't exactly making the big bucks. That roster was insane and Higgins/Lapierre were great additions. IIRC Malhotra went down after the deadline, didn't he?

2011/2012 Carter would have been a nice pickup though

Yeah, I believe he went down with 10 games left in the season.

No one, I really can't see how else Gillis could've improved on that 2011 team, it was absolutely stacked from top to bottom and everyone's place on the team matched up with their strengths. Perfect balance of defensive/offensive LD/RD, two perennial Selke candidate centermen on the 2nd and 3rd lines with one being a left shot and one being a right to matchup defensive zone draws. It was really unfortunate that they couldn't get that 16th victory.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Raymond - Kesler - Samuelsson
Torres - Malhotra - Hansen
Higgins - Lappiere - Tambellini
Glass/Oreskovich

Hamhuis - Bieksa
Edler - Ehrhoff
Rome - Salo
Ballard/Alberts/Tanev

Luongo
Schneider

People can say what they want about Gillis inheriting the Sedins, Kesler and Luongo, but all the support pieces he brought in fit the team like a glove and enhanced everyone's value. If it was Benning, he would've just saddled down the team with bad contracts and misfits.

 

[Kryten]

Other GMs hated Gillis due to dealing with him as an agent. Refs hated our team because Gillis would call out the refs and we had Burrows, Kesler, lappierre, Hansen etc. There were a lot of powerhouse teams during the Sedins peak

 

[thekernel]

Nonis' refusal to make dumb, short-sighted moves that the owners wanted is basically why the Canucks were a league powerhouse a couple years later.

Lmao

Nonis's legacy as a GM was a blockbuster trade for an elite player who stayed here for 8 years. That trade shaped the future of the franchise way, way more than some nebulous, empty concept like "refusal to make dumb, short-sighted moves".

 

[NoShowWilly]

I guess I'd have to see the cap numbers but this team was right up against the cap or over every single year from what I remember

taking on Jeff carter's 11 year contract (5.2 per year) that had just started with a looming lockout would have been really tough. that contract is still going...

 

[RandV]

Honestly, the first half of their career, they were capable second liners, it wasn't really a priority to find them a permanent winger there when anyone fit (Klatt, Jason King) and they were just fine.

Only when they were bona fide 1st liners from 2009 on did the Canucks try to solve that problem. But as memory recalls, the coach would mix in anyone that got hot...Vigneault, Desjardins, Green would all just mix the lines anyways.

When they actually signed a permanent guy to play with the Sedins, well, look at how well that turned out. Loui also never got a fair shake at playing with the Sedins anyways. They tried him there for 5 games and gave up immediately. Benning saw the Olympics and got rope-a-doped into signing him to that contract.

I kind of think it's the reverse here. In the first 4 seasons they were 40 point players who had to be played together but weren't quite good enough to be a proper scoring line, didn't have the make to be a shut down line, and with the way they played together it was hard finding a 3rd player that could mesh with them.

You could see the talent though so that's why there was a lot of emphasis on finding them the right winger, and it kind of stuck once they stepped up there game when it no longer really mattered. As a pair of star forwards they were good enough that having a complementary winger like Burrows was perfectly suitable. As an example you don't see Florida fans thinking they need to find a Patrick Kane or Mikko Rantanen to play with Huberdeau and Barkov. With NHL teams using 4 forward lines and having only so much talent around it's perfectly appropriate to have a 'dynamic duo' up front surrounded by complementary pieces.

Rather, what that team was really lacking was a solid long-term secondary scoring piece for elsewhere in the lineup, as Gillis was only able to get short term guys. In hindsight perhaps the most underrated Canucks blunder of the past 20 years was Brian Burke being an idiot and running RJ Umberger out of town. There may have been some personal issues between him and Kesler but that aside he had a window from 2005-2014 which was exactly what the team needed. Like Mason Raymond except gritty and had 6 solid offensive seasons.

 

[RobertKron]

How many elite three-player lines can you think of that have been permanent?

 

[Luck 6]

Gillis was an amazing GM, the best we’ve had in my opinion, but this is one slight that I hold against him.

It was always about “money ball” which worked quite well; as others have said he could always find 3rd liners who out performed their contracts. With that being said, he never went out and got that legit 1st line player to help bolster our line up.

As I said in other threads, I do believe that Gillis could have opened our window sooner by being more aggressive in this front. Our window as a contender was so short, and it opened too late to give the Sedin’s enough shots at it with a strong supporting cast.

For this reason, and I say this with a grain of salt, I do not completely hate that Benning is spending picks on players. With the core we have here, we can probably get into the playoffs most years for the next 8 years or so. Benning could either wait 4 years and continue to build for the draft, which would all but ensure we have no change in that range, or he could make some moves to bring us immoderate talent. As much as I support building through the draft, If we get 8 shots at the playoffs to win it, I’d rather go all in 8 times.

 

[I am toxic]

We were pretty much over the cap and had serious/done injuries to over half our top9 and virtually our entire top4 and still made it to game 7.

Should have invested non-cap $$$ in protective gear like what Tanev is wearing this year.

To this day I still clench my butt cheeks in a vain attempt to will time itself to reverse and have Manny not get injured. The trickle down to Kes and Henrik likely means they dont get as injured and voi-effin' -la.

Am I allowed to say that? Butt cheeks?