why didn't Mario win the Hart in 2001?

[BenchBrawl]

well patrice bergeron has what 4 of them? people still argue he isn't a hall of famer, so safe to say that trophy isn't exactly prestigious

[MOD]

Finishing 2nd in Selke, regardless of the prestige of the award, is a good indication of a player's defensive play.Sakic was very good defensively, that's what it means.Nothing more to it.

You said the Selke is just a slight step above the Byng, but is defensive play just a slight step above good sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct?

 

[tony d]

Sakic had a full season, so that was a big reason. His 2000-2001 season was one of the best seasons any hockey player has ever had IMO.

 

[ColbyChaos]

they ended up as the 6th place team in the east, without him they don't make it

The parity was awful back then still there was a gigantic drop off between playoff teams and non playoff teams even in the east in 01 there were 6 teams that got to 100 pts or close to it and then the other half of the conference was at 70 pts or below. [MOD]

 

[Theokritos]

Mod Note: Discuss the topic, not other posters.

 

[ColbyChaos]

getting his team to the playoffs, that is what he contributed

the selke is a slight step above the lady byng

When he didnt play half of the season he isnt getting his team to the playoffs the other stars did no matter how good he was in the games he was in.

Selke a slight step above the lady byng you are literally doing this to yourself

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

When he didnt play half of the season he isnt getting his team to the playoffs the other stars did no matter how good he was in the games he was in.

Selke a slight step above the lady byng you are literally doing this to yourself

what trophy would you rank in between the selke and byng? aside from trophies that aren't awarded on the ice like the messier award?

mario was more valuable to his team, if hall deserved it so did mario

 

[BenchBrawl]

what trophy would you rank in between the selke and byng? aside from trophies that aren't awarded on the ice like the messier award?

mario was more valuable to his team, if hall deserved it so did mario

Imagine we assign a value number to each trophies.

Hart = 100
Ross = 90
Norris = 90
Rocket = 80
Selke = 60
Byng = 10

Even though there's no trophy between the Selke and the Byng, the difference between both is still larger than the difference between the Selke and the Hart.My numbers are irrelevant, it's just to illustrate how nonesensical your question is.

The surrounding context inside of which this Byng discussion started was also nonesensical.

If we need to rip apart each and every one of your posts that way to even BEGIN a constructive conversation, you're putting way too much burden on all of us.

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

point still stands, it's a lower tier trophy

bergeron with 4 and people still aren't sure if he's a hall of famer, you win 4 of the other trophies you are a slam dunk hall of famer

 

[BenchBrawl]

Allright, I'm out.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

what trophy would you rank in between the selke and byng? aside from trophies that aren't awarded on the ice like the messier award?

mario was more valuable to his team, if hall deserved it so did mario

You're trying to establish precedent between two seasons in isolation that occurred 17 years apart?

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

You're trying to establish precedent between two seasons in isolation that occurred 17 years apart?

yeah why not?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

yeah why not?

Significant changes to the voting body over such a length of time. Unless you can establish a continuity of voting trends between 2001 and 2018 which shows that either Sakic or Hall's Hart wins don't fit established standards, you've just taken two unrelated years with unrelated groups of voters and cried foul.

 

[ColbyChaos]

If Sakic was a bad hart winner I’d love to hear you flip your arguments as to why Sid deserved to win over Giroux over 2014

 

[Sentinel]

1. There is more to life than offensive stats.
2. There is more to hockey than Penguins' offense.

 

[Felidae]

Didn't Jagr outproduce Lemieux when he came back?

Also, it helps when Sakic's next highest scoring teammate was Forsberg with 89 points, missing 9 games and not playing on the same line.

 

[Jets4Life]

the hart is the player most valuable to his team, right?

Well in that case, Sidney Crosby was robbed in 2011-12, since he finished with 1.68 PPG, far higher than anyone else.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i still cant figure out any similarities between 2018 Taylor Hall and 2001 Lemieux.

 

[ricky0034]

Well in that case, Sidney Crosby was robbed in 2011-12, since he finished with 1.68 PPG, far higher than anyone else.

poor Louie Belpedio put up 2.00 PPG this year(as a Defenseman!)and didn't get a single vote

 

[bobholly39]

Lemieux only played 1/2 the season, and you are actually saying that people are "too obsessed" with that fact? If Lemieux had 110 points, maybe you have a case, but he did not even finish in the top 10 leading scorers that year. If Lemieux had played 3/4 of the season or more, maybe he would have won the Hart Trophy, but not playing just 43 games.

He finished 2nd in hart voting is what I mean.

Clearly - despite the 39 games missed - he was a strong contender among voters for the award.

The reason why he lost is because Sakic had such a fantastic season. If you remove Sakic from the picture - Lemieux wins despite 39 games missed. If you interchange any other season of Sakic's career with his 2001 season (or just about, might be an exception or 2) - Lemieux still wins, despite his 39 games missed.

So yeah - people here are too obsessed with 39 games missed. The voters seemed ok awarding the Hart to Lemieux - it's only that Sakic had such a fantastic year, and deserved it more.

 

[Jets4Life]

He finished 2nd in hart voting is what I mean.

Clearly - despite the 39 games missed - he was a strong contender among voters for the award.

The reason why he lost is because Sakic had such a fantastic season. If you remove Sakic from the picture - Lemieux wins despite 39 games missed. If you interchange any other season of Sakic's career with his 2001 season (or just about, might be an exception or 2) - Lemieux still wins, despite his 39 games missed.

So yeah - people here are too obsessed with 39 games missed. The voters seemed ok awarding the Hart to Lemieux - it's only that Sakic had such a fantastic year, and deserved it more.

Lemieux should never have been 2nd for the Hart Trophy voting IMO. Missing 1/2 a season is just too much time. He finished far south of the top 10 scorers in the league. The problem with Hart Trophy voting, is many of the voters based their pick on something other than what the Hart Trophy was intented for. I'm sure voters were swayed by the feel-good story of Lemieux coming out of retirement, rather than look at his actual stats for that year (76 points).

Just look at what happened the following season. The 2001-02 Hart Trophy voting was proven to be rigged so that Jose Theodore won the Hart, when it was clear Iginla had a career year, and was more valuable to his team. Iginla carried the Flames for several years, and him being robbed of the Hart Trophy remains an injustice to this day.

Personally, I think the Ted Lindsay Award is more accurate as to who the MVP of the league is, considering the voters are all players in the NHLPA. Of all people, they would know who would be most valuable to their team, rather than a bunch of sportswriters, and what not.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

now 2002 Iginla and 2018 McDavid....at least thats somewhat comparable

 

[ColbyChaos]

Considering voters thought Randy Carlyle should have been an Adams finalist in a season he was fired I wouldnt really say every voter is really qualified to decide which player wins what award. 39 games missed is a stupid big margin to miss and considering Pit already made the playoffs during that span Lemieux was gone hurts the argument.

 

[Troubadour]

Didn't Jagr outproduce Lemieux when he came back?

Also, it helps when Sakic's next highest scoring teammate was Forsberg with 89 points, missing 9 games and not playing on the same line.

He did, but even if the definition of the Hart was not the most valuable player to Jaromir Jagr, Lemieux still had to come on top with Jagr behind him, because although Jagr still had it, he needed Lemieux to perform at his highest level, at least psychologically. The question here is, how much the Pens needed the interested Jagr to make the play offs. And the truth is, their second line replaced him with dignity. So Lemieux helped, but he played too little. And if he had jumped on earlier and Jagr still had outproduced him, maybe it would have never occurred to people Jagr was slumping at all, thus I don't think the Hart was in the stars for Mario that year.

Sakic was a force all year long. I remember people thought he would hit a wall post new year. They were wrong. It's weird someone questions this one, of all Harts.

 

[Canadiens1958]

sakic had a great season but was it really better than mario?

mario came out of retirement and reclaimed his spot as the best player in the world

jagr ended up winning the ross when he was way out of the race before mario returned

mario put up an absured 76 points in 43 games, the pens probably don't make the playoffs without his comeback

you could say sakic proved he deserved it as the avs won the cup without forsberg, but couldn't that mean his team was just that stacked?

if taylor hall deserved the hart this year, how didn't mario deserve it in 2001?

Ok. False premise and assertions.

Hart is for the most valuable not the best. Winning the Ross is a by-product not the objective of a season.

Taking Dec. 20, 2000 as a date for the purpose of analysis, we see Pittsburgh holding the same approximatate spot in the Eastern Standings.

NHL standings at the end of play on Wednesday, December 20, 2000

Running the Pythagorean W-L eaxpection for eastern teams shows that the standings more or less reflect abilities and proper team positions. None of the teams below the Penguins had the ability to compete for their spot even without Lemieux.

Observations. Before Lemieux, Pittsburgh had a GAA just under 3.00. With Lemieux it rose to 3.16. So the Penguins were better at masking or compensating their weaknesses defensively. These weaknesses remained and NJ exploited them tow in the East in 2001.

Far from a Hart worthy season like Taylor Hall in 2017-18.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Personally, I think the Ted Lindsay Award is more accurate as to who the MVP of the league is, considering the voters are all players in the NHLPA. Of all people, they would know who would be most valuable to their team, rather than a bunch of sportswriters, and what not.

Meh, the players are just as susceptible to hype and narratives as the media.