Why Alfredsson > Sundin

[MakeOttawaGreatAgain]

I feel like this is Goku vs Vegeta


And Sundin is Nappa

 

[source]

Good post.

Why was Radek Bonk disgruntled?

 

[Super Cake]

Inferiority complex or what?

Nice counter argument. You really did go into so much detail into how Sundin is actually better than Alfredsson. You really convinced me that Alfredsson actually sucks and Sundin is a god. Congratulations.

Since this is a well thought out argument, maybe you should write a book about it and publish it? Just think of the money you can make on this excellent piece of work.

 

[ottawa]

I made a poll about this a few weeks ago...Sundin won by a large margin. I'd say its pretty damn even, Sundin had a head start but Alfredsson closed the gap. I could see an argument being made for one of the other but there's really no 'Sundin AINEC' that many Leafs fans claim or any 'Alfie AINEC' that hopefully no sens fan would dare to say.

 

[Samboni]

Who cares what they think? They were both great players.

Sam

 

[pepty]

What's worse is that neither Mendes nor Shawn Simpson bothered to put up an argument. Simpson agreed with O'Neill when he said that Sundin was elite and Alfredsson isn't. O'Neill said that the HOF should be reserved for the elite....what a dumbass

I know. They were just ...well okay if that's what you think.
as though Sundin is not the epitome of the very good but not
great hockey player.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Jeff O'Neil is as thoughtful as a cabbage. And he's a grown-*** man who's afraid of flying.

He probably hates Kovalev because he has his pilot's license.

 

[General Zodd]

With both players in their prime, the decision is quite easy really... ALFIE BY A LANDSLIDE.

Toronto media are ****ing ****heads!

 

[BonkTastic]

Good post.

Why was Radek Bonk disgruntled?

AFAIK, he wasn't.

 

[johan f]

As a Swede, I don't count that much into what's written in first post. For most Swedes Mats was the better player, the more prolific skater and the player with a better career. Mats scored big goals in WC that is deeply remembered by us. The way he scored the goals, the way he skated down the wing with a majestic force from a very young age carved out the view we have of him. Daniel was a heck of a player, no doubts. But Mats had that very "it"

One other aspect of why Mats is considered the bigger hero is that World Championships had much bigger value in beginning of 90s than later. Russians were still dominating, national team still had a core of players that people in Sweden could identify with and the country more or less was on held when Tre Kronor played in the later stage of tournies.

So the legend of Mats is not only because how he played the game, it's the timing of how important national team was and I can add that Peter Forsberg very soon became an icon as well, leaving Alfie the odd man out.

 

[Real Smart Sens Fan]

This is the real Alfie of the Leafs

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=4742

 

[BonkTastic]

For the record, I really don't care about the one-upmanship between the two.

They were both great players, Sundin had better high-end skill and got a head-start on Alfie but left a bit on the table, Alfredsson made better use of the skill he had and was the more well rounded player, IMO.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Inferiority complex or what?

Alfie google alert?

 

[TeamRenzo]

Biased as it is. Both players are very close.

One bias is starting age. Sundin was plainly a lot better then Alfie when they were younger. A lot. Sundin picked first overall and I think needed to miss his first year due to Military committment, not because he was not NHL ready. Alfredsson... Undrafted. Drafted in second year of eligibility.

However Alfredsson was undeniably better as an older player. From about 2003... Alfredsson is a better player. Certainly better post lockout year. Alfredsson has the best playoffs in 2007 of either.

Sundin is superior internationally (though Alfie was always great). Sundin is the best Swede ever internationally... Over Forsberg and Lidstrom even.

Healthwise it is Sundin. Both Alfie and Sundin were consistent their whole careers... But for awhile Alfie kept missing significant chunks if seasons.

It is very close overall. Sundin easily is better under 30 years old and Alfie better after 30.

I can see why most pick Sundin overall. There is am argument either way. Both are clearly HHOFers.

I would take 2005-2008 Alfie over any year of Sundin though.

This

 

[Micklebot]

As a Swede, I don't count that much into what's written in first post. For most Swedes Mats was the better player, the more prolific skater and the player with a better career. Mats scored big goals in WC that is deeply remembered by us. The way he scored the goals, the way he skated down the wing with a majestic force from a very young age carved out the view we have of him. Daniel was a heck of a player, no doubts. But Mats had that very "it"

One other aspect of why Mats is considered the bigger hero is that World Championships had much bigger value in beginning of 90s than later. Russians were still dominating, national team still had a core of players that people in Sweden could identify with and the country more or less was on held when Tre Kronor played in the later stage of tournies.

So the legend of Mats is not only because how he played the game, it's the timing of how important national team was and I can add that Peter Forsberg very soon became an icon as well, leaving Alfie the odd man out.

From the national perspective, I can see a lot of advantages Sundin has when looking at their legacies.

Mats was more highly touted as he developed. As a high draft pick, he was front and center all the way through his development, while Alfie was an afterthough.

Mats also played in more international tournaments that Alfie wasn't available for due to NHL commitments. Again, in the spotlight while Alfie was doing his thing elsewhere.

Sundin was also playing in one of the biggest NHL markets. Not sure, but I imagine that would make him more visible than a guy on an expansion team for fans back in Sweden.

So it doesn't surprise me that two players who imo are very close in terms of quality of careers would have such a varying level of support when discusing who had the better career. Sundin simply had far more time in the spotlight, so even if they had identical achievements I'd expect Sundin to get more support.

I don't think anyone is right or wrong for picking one or the other, as imo, they were about as close as it gets. Both had advantages and disadvantages: Sundin played in a higher scoring era early in his career with guys like Sakic and Owen, but had far fewer complimentary players later; while Alfie missed some of what should have been his more productive years to lockouts, coming to the NHL late, and with an expansion team, but had the Pizza line later in his career.

 

[pepty]

As a Swede, I don't count that much into what's written in first post. For most Swedes Mats was the better player, the more prolific skater and the player with a better career. Mats scored big goals in WC that is deeply remembered by us. The way he scored the goals, the way he skated down the wing with a majestic force from a very young age carved out the view we have of him. Daniel was a heck of a player, no doubts. But Mats had that very "it"

One other aspect of why Mats is considered the bigger hero is that World Championships had much bigger value in beginning of 90s than later. Russians were still dominating, national team still had a core of players that people in Sweden could identify with and the country more or less was on held when Tre Kronor played in the later stage of tournies.

So the legend of Mats is not only because how he played the game, it's the timing of how important national team was and I can add that Peter Forsberg very soon became an icon as well, leaving Alfie the odd man out.

Mats is a much bigger star in Sweden but that doesn't mean he is a better player.
He is a more naturally gifted player and was a high draft pick and played for a high profile team.

Sundin despite being an icon in Sweden won no hardware in the NHL and nor did his team.

Sundin went to an established team that had a huge payroll when there was no cap. Ottawa was in turmoil when Alfie came here and was generally on the edge of bankruptcy and then did go bankrupt. They had promising rookies but couldn't afford the high quality veterans.

And yet Alfie led the Sens to the Finals which the Sundin led Leafs never did. Alfie led the Sens a lot further with much less than Sundin who was in one of the most beneficial situations in the entire NHL.

The World Cup games are not such a big deal here though I understand they are more important in Europe.

 

[coladin]

As a Swede, I don't count that much into what's written in first post. For most Swedes Mats was the better player, the more prolific skater and the player with a better career. Mats scored big goals in WC that is deeply remembered by us. The way he scored the goals, the way he skated down the wing with a majestic force from a very young age carved out the view we have of him. Daniel was a heck of a player, no doubts. But Mats had that very "it"

One other aspect of why Mats is considered the bigger hero is that World Championships had much bigger value in beginning of 90s than later. Russians were still dominating, national team still had a core of players that people in Sweden could identify with and the country more or less was on held when Tre Kronor played in the later stage of tournies.

So the legend of Mats is not only because how he played the game, it's the timing of how important national team was and I can add that Peter Forsberg very soon became an icon as well, leaving Alfie the odd man out.

I appreciate your standpoint coming from a swede, but your analogy of why Mats is "better" than Alfredsson because of the WC falls flat when you consider the reason that Mats was available for the WC was his inability to do anything of substance on a big budget team when it mattered most. In North America, anyways, reputations are made in April to June. I did not feel that Sundin was a first ballot Hall of Famer, nor do I feel Alfredsson is. I think media being Toronto centric had a lot to do with him getting in so quickly and ahead of more deserving players.

Forsberg and Alfie weren't around as much because they were busy trying to lead and win Stanley Cups, but Alfie in his prime, in 2006 was much more effective than Sundin in securing that Gold Medal.

For the record I think Sundin is the more skilled player, but I think the better player is Alfredsson. No one questioned his work ethic in the manner Sundin was. No one questioned his desire in Ottawa. It was an issue for Sundin in Toronto. Toronto fans I think if they are being completely honest, will freely admit that he was not universally loved in the manner Alfie was. I don't understand how a highly talented and skilled player like Sundin could not break out of that 70 point mould for so many years.

 

[dpw]

Shawn Simpson is a dumb egoist. He just talks to hear himself talk. He contradicts his own opinions 2 weeks later.

Funny you say that my g/f says the same thing when he's on in the morning and she doesn't care for hockey.

 

[johan f]

I appreciate your standpoint coming from a swede, but your analogy of why Mats is "better" than Alfredsson because of the WC falls flat when you consider the reason that Mats was available for the WC was his inability to do anything of substance on a big budget team when it mattered most. In North America, anyways, reputations are made in April to June. I did not feel that Sundin was a first ballot Hall of Famer, nor do I feel Alfredsson is. I think media being Toronto centric had a lot to do with him getting in so quickly and ahead of more deserving players.

Forsberg and Alfie weren't around as much because they were busy trying to lead and win Stanley Cups, but Alfie in his prime, in 2006 was much more effective than Sundin in securing that Gold Medal.

For the record I think Sundin is the more skilled player, but I think the better player is Alfredsson. No one questioned his work ethic in the manner Sundin was. No one questioned his desire in Ottawa. It was an issue for Sundin in Toronto. Toronto fans I think if they are being completely honest, will freely admit that he was not universally loved in the manner Alfie was. I don't understand how a highly talented and skilled player like Sundin could not break out of that 70 point mould for so many years.

I was more offering a view from Sweden, explaining why Alfie is a notch lower than Sundin on the ladder. I think Mats did not come to his best as NHL:er. But WC played a huge part for Swedes when Mats came thru as a teen.

Ok, Alfie was a more versatile player. From an objective point of view.

 

[trentmccleary]

Alfredsson owned Sundin in the new millennium offensively and defensively.

The WC's aren't really any sort of tie breaker. They're considered an also-ran tournament for guys who've been eliminated early in the NHL playoffs. The people who care most about it are Europeans and Shane Doan's momma.

He should be a lock for the HOF because he fits right in along with guys they've elected every year for the past 8 years.

Player | Alfie | Modano | Sundin | Shanahan | Oates | Gilmour | Nieuwendyk | Ciccarelli | Anderson
GP | 1246 | 1459 | 1346 | 1524 | 1337 | 1474 | 1257 | 1232 | 1129
G | 444 | 557 | 564 | 656 | 341 | 450 | 564 | 608 | 498
A | 713 | 802 | 785 | 698 | 1079 | 964 | 562 | 592 | 601
Pts | 1157 | 1359 | 1349 | 1354 | 1420 | 1414 | 1126 | 1200 | 1099
PPG | 0.93 | 0.92 | 1.00 | 0.89 | 1.06 | 0.96 | 0.90 | 0.97 | 0.97
Adj*PPG | 1.01 | 0.94 | 1.05 | 0.90 | 1.04 | 0.90 | 0.89 | 0.85 | 0.81
T10-G | 9, 9, 9 | 8, 8 | 2, 8, 10 | 5,6,6,9,10 | | 10 | 5,5,7,7,9 | 4, 5 | 3, 4, 9
T10-Pts | 4, 7, 9 | 8, 9, 10 | 4, 7 | 8, 10 | 3,3,3,7,10,10,10 | 4, 5, 7 | | 6, 9 | 9
T10-PPG | 3, 4, 9 | 4 | 10 | 2,3,5 | 5, 9, 9 | | 6, 10 | 5, 9
Awards | Calder Clancy Messier | | Messier | Clancy | | Selke | Calder Clancy Smythe | |
Cup | | 1 | | 3 | | 1 | 3 | | 6
Finals | 1 | 3 | | 3 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 7

 

[Nordic*]

Sundin was a better leader. He oozes leadership.

 

[pepty]

Sundin was a better leader. He oozes leadership.

Oozing-that sounds alarming..

Perhaps he should have someone look at that.