stigs17
Registered User
- Dec 3, 2005
- 83
- 4
Last week, Ottawa did an excellent job in honoring their best modern player, Daniel Alfredsson, a franchise model of excellence for future generations.
On the day of Alfredsson’s retirement, the insolent SN posse (Millard, Kypreos, MacLean) could not resist posing their resentment, explaining why Alfredsson is inferior to Sundin. Could the pro-Toronto bias not take ONE day to properly respect the far and away best player in modern Ottawa Senator history?
The pro-Toronto posse's explanation for Sundin’s superiority? A simplistic, mundane look at career numbers and a 192-point regular season differential in 100 extra games. To think these puppets are actually salaried for biased discourse.
Reflecting on the magnificent career, Daniel Alfredsson deserves better. WAY BETTER. Don't hold your breath on any media monkey actually doing their job and conducting solid research. Thus I have taken the honor.
Below is a proper, objective analysis. Like many of the older paying fans, I saw 90-95% of Alfie’s games, many in person, including dozens of Sundin’s games.
1. Starting Age
-Sundin started his NHL career at 19, playing with Hall of Famer Joe Sakic.
-Alfredsson started his NHL career two months shy of 23, playing with Tom Chorske and a mix of Randy Cunneyworth and disgruntled Radek Bonk & Alexei Ya$hin.
(*Even with a modest 50 points per season – less than an average second-liner in the early 90s, Alfredsson lost 250+ points in those five seasons, more than offsetting Sundin's 192-point advantage in the regular season – the lone measure Sundin holds an advantage over Alfredsson.)
2. NHL Eras
-Sundin's best years were his initial years in Quebec in 1990-1994, scoring 334 points in his first four seasons in a wide-open era where the average team scored 3.6 goals per game.
-Alfredsson never had the benefit of playing in this explosive offensive era. Comparatively, in his first four seasons (the start of the dead-puck era which lasted his first nine seasons in the league, covering his offensive peak), the average team scored 2.6 goals per game, or 28% fewer goals than Sundin's era. Moreover, still feeling the effects of expansion, the Sens were the worst team in the NHL, averaging a paltry 2.3 goals. Since Sundin’s retirement, average NHL scoring for Alfredsson consistently held at 2.7 goals per game (including non-statistical shootout goals), on par with the 2.6 dead puck era.
3. 2004-05: The Lost Season
-Sundin lost a full season in 2003-04 in his twilight, averaging 75 points. He sat the season out.
-Alfredsson lost a full season at the top of his game in 2003-04 when he was a top-10 NHL scorer. The following season, he scored 103 points, the most in his 18-season, 19-year career. Realistically, he was robbed of 100-110+ points and likely another lengthy Cup run. Alfredsson went back to Sweden and led Frolunda HC to the SEL Championship, scoring 12 goals in 14 playoff games in the second-best league in the world.
4. Playoffs: Team Results
-Despite playing on many teams built for the playoffs with payrolls in excess of $80 million, Sundin only made the Conference finals twice, smoked by Buffalo 4-1 in 1999 and 4-2 to Carolina in 2002.
-Despite playing on many soft teams with poor goaltending who underachieved in the playoffs with payrolls under $40 million, Alfredsson led the Sens to the Conference finals twice. In the first run, losing by a goal in game 7 of the ECF. In the second run, steamrolling PIT/NJ/BUF with a 12-3 record (which could easily be 15-0 given the domination in every game), becoming the first European-born & trained captain to lead a club to the Stanley Cup. With the ill-timed 2004-05 lockout, denied another legit shot at a Cup with what most experts believe was the best team in their post-modern history.
5. Playoffs: Individual Stats
-In 18 NHL seasons, Sundin made the playoffs 10 times (55%). He scored 38 goals and 82 points.
-In 18 NHL seasons, Alfredsson made the playoffs 16 times (89%), including 11 straight years on a small-market club. He scored 51 goals and 100 points when the games mattered most, including one run with a severe MCL knee sprain, one with a sports hernia and multiple years with chronic back issues.
6. Team Sweden - Olympics
-Sundin played in 3 Olympic games over a span of 8 years in his prime, scoring 11 goals and 20 points. He captained the Gold Medal squad in 2006.
-Alfredsson played in 5 Olympic games over a span of 16 years skewed to his back nine, scoring 13 goals and 27 points. In 2006, he led Team Sweden in scoring to earn a Gold Medal. In 2014, at the age of 41, he led Sweden again to a Silver Medal on a wonky back vs an unbeatable Team Canada.
(Unfair to look at World Championships, as they are never best-on-best tourneys. Sundin played more here as a direct result of missing the playoffs 8x, many in his prime, thus this is a measure of NHL failures).
(Similarly, NHL All-Star appearances are severely flawed, as there was no game in 2005, 2006, 2010, 2013, four guaranteed years).
7. Depth of On-Ice Roles
-Sundin was a top-line forward and top-line PP forward most of his career.
-Alfredsson was a top-line forward, ran the PP from the point (where points are more sparse), and top-line penalty killer most of his career.
8. Back Nine Production & Retirement Age
-Sundin's final game in Vancouver was at 38 years, 2 months. After the 1998-99 season (age 28) he never surpassed 80 points in a season. In his final NHL season, he accepted an $8.5 million U.S. one-year contract in Vancouver, showed up out of shape, scored 9 goals, was predominantly used on the PP and was a healthy scratch in the playoffs.
-Alfredsson's final game in Detroit was at 41 years, 5 months. From the 2002-03 season (age 30) onwards, Alfredsson eclipsed the 80-point mark 4x and averaged over a point a game 6x. Live a fine wine, he improved with age. At age 33, he was the best player at the 2006 Olympic Games. In 2007, at age 34, he led the NHL in playoff scoring and led the Sens to the Stanley Cup Finals. Throughout his career, he was used on the top line of the PK. In his final season, he ran the point of the Detroit PP, averaging over 0.72 points per game, marginally below his career average of 0.93.
(*Given that the peak age for scoring production among forwards is 28, Alfredsson pushed his career over 13 years past the prime for NHL forwards, 3.5 years past a finished Sundin.)
9. Adversity
-Sundin had to deal with a media zoo for most of his career. Beyond missing 12 games with a broken orbital bone, the 6’5†Swede was durable, and never faced any significant injuries (averaged 79 games in non-lockout years). With BUF, OTT, FLA, TB, DET, WPG, EDM, CGY, VAN, etc., routinely played 60+ home games each year.
-Alfredsson had to deal with a smaller Canadian media circus. However, he had to endure significant adversity over his tenure in Ottawa including:
-a bankrupt owner withholding paycheques & monthly press conferences crying poor, threatening to fold team with a weak CDN $ (Bryden);
-multiple contract holdouts from team ‘captain’ (Ya$hin);
-shady practices of a corrupt, two-faced GM (Gauthier) led to brief personal holdout;
-seeing the departure of buddies and NHL superstars in their prime for financial reasons when the team was peaking (Hossa, Havlat, Chara,etc.);
-at 5’11â€, undersized in an increasingly big man’s NHL game;
-prime of his career played with an exceedingly defensive-minded coach (Martin) who preached defense-first play for even elite forwards;
-prima-donna PP linemate demanding trade in public and subsequently handicapping team (Heatley);
-revolving door of coaches (Bowness-Allison-Martin-Neilson-Murray-Paddock-Murray-Hartsburg-Clouston-MacLean);
-revolving door of GMs (Sexton, Gauthier, Dudley, Johnston, Muckler, Murray);
-often played through injury including recurring back flare-ups, MCL sprains, knee surgery, back surgery, broken ribs and sports hernia (likely other unpublished);
-recovery pressure given pathetic team winning % when out of lineup (sat out just one game with broken ribs);
-calls to be dealt by a large portion of the fan base after a slow start in 2006;
-cheapskate owner (Melnyk), 2007 Cup run rewarded with six years of rebuilds prior to his sudden departure to Detroit;
-played 17 seasons where he was constantly booed in his ‘home’ arena for each Toronto & Montreal game (to a lesser extent western Canada), effectively playing 50+ road games each year;
-either lowballed (his account) or ignored & assumed to be coming back (Murray’s account) in 2013 contract talks after giving several years of hometown discounts, including $1 million – barely above league minimum – in leading Sens to 2nd round.
10. Leadership & Community Service
-Sundin served as team captain in Toronto for 10 years. Provided a model of consistency for a stagnant franchise which was annually among the top NHL spenders … with mediocre results. His main charitable work was at PartyPoker.
-Alfredsson served as team captain in Ottawa for 13 years (#1 in the NHL). A soft-spoken leader who led by example on the ice. Was elected by his peers as NHLPA VP for most of his career. Spearheaded a courageous mental illness awareness campaign with the Royal Ottawa Hospital. Provided a home for many young Senators over the years, including superstar EK65 and budding #1 goalie Lehner (who later bought his home at a discount).
11. NHL Awards
-Sundin won the Messier Award in 2008. Elected to HHof in 2012, his first year of eligibility.
-Alfredsson won the Calder Rookie of the Year in 1996, the Carbonneau in 2008, the King Clancy in 2012 and Messier Award in 2013. Finalist in Lady Byng (2x), Selke & Masterton Trophies. HHoF almost a certainty.
12. Career Highlights/Legacy
-Sundin's biggest victory was Gold in 2006, with Alfredsson leading the team in scoring. He was a #1 overall pick in 1989 and largely fulfilled the hype (though not the best player in his class – #54 Lidstrom, #74 Fedorov, #221 Konstantinov?). Longest playoff run was 10 wins. Mocked for years for foolishly throwing broken stick into crowd.
-Alfredsson's biggest victory was leading the Senators to the Stanley Cup Final in 2007. Second was leading Sweden to Olympic Gold in 2006. Third either leading Olympic Silver in 2014 or one goal from Stanley Cup Final in 2003. Despite being drafted #133 overall, will go down as the best player to emerge from the 1994 NHL Draft. Mocked for years for Krusty the Clown look.
13. Post-Retirement Contribution to the NHL
-For Sundin, other than the odd NHLPA charity game, nil.
-Alfredsson TBD. (My guess would be director of European scouting or a special advisory role in Ottawa + continued civic leadership).
***
Even before adjusting for the four lost seasons from age 19-22 and not having the benefit of playing in the high-flying early 90s, Alfredsson has had the better overall career in every objective measure beyond simple regular season goal totals. But these breakdowns are too complicated for the masses to grasp.
Meanwhile, these pro-Toronto CBC/SN muppets push Sundin as a first ballot HoF, while despised enemy Alfredsson deserves no consideration.
When I asked Jeff O’Neill why Sundin is a first ballot HOF and Alfredsson deserves no consideration, after 20 seconds of MacT-like bumbling and stumbling, Sundin was a ‘superstar’ and Alfredsson was a ‘great player.’ WTF? Ottawa hate aside, how can any of these biased ‘journalists’ be taken seriously? How can networks (SN, CBC) so blatantly defraud the public with their biased pro-Toronto rhetoric?
On the day of Alfredsson’s retirement, the insolent SN posse (Millard, Kypreos, MacLean) could not resist posing their resentment, explaining why Alfredsson is inferior to Sundin. Could the pro-Toronto bias not take ONE day to properly respect the far and away best player in modern Ottawa Senator history?
The pro-Toronto posse's explanation for Sundin’s superiority? A simplistic, mundane look at career numbers and a 192-point regular season differential in 100 extra games. To think these puppets are actually salaried for biased discourse.
Reflecting on the magnificent career, Daniel Alfredsson deserves better. WAY BETTER. Don't hold your breath on any media monkey actually doing their job and conducting solid research. Thus I have taken the honor.
Below is a proper, objective analysis. Like many of the older paying fans, I saw 90-95% of Alfie’s games, many in person, including dozens of Sundin’s games.
1. Starting Age
-Sundin started his NHL career at 19, playing with Hall of Famer Joe Sakic.
-Alfredsson started his NHL career two months shy of 23, playing with Tom Chorske and a mix of Randy Cunneyworth and disgruntled Radek Bonk & Alexei Ya$hin.
(*Even with a modest 50 points per season – less than an average second-liner in the early 90s, Alfredsson lost 250+ points in those five seasons, more than offsetting Sundin's 192-point advantage in the regular season – the lone measure Sundin holds an advantage over Alfredsson.)
2. NHL Eras
-Sundin's best years were his initial years in Quebec in 1990-1994, scoring 334 points in his first four seasons in a wide-open era where the average team scored 3.6 goals per game.
-Alfredsson never had the benefit of playing in this explosive offensive era. Comparatively, in his first four seasons (the start of the dead-puck era which lasted his first nine seasons in the league, covering his offensive peak), the average team scored 2.6 goals per game, or 28% fewer goals than Sundin's era. Moreover, still feeling the effects of expansion, the Sens were the worst team in the NHL, averaging a paltry 2.3 goals. Since Sundin’s retirement, average NHL scoring for Alfredsson consistently held at 2.7 goals per game (including non-statistical shootout goals), on par with the 2.6 dead puck era.
3. 2004-05: The Lost Season
-Sundin lost a full season in 2003-04 in his twilight, averaging 75 points. He sat the season out.
-Alfredsson lost a full season at the top of his game in 2003-04 when he was a top-10 NHL scorer. The following season, he scored 103 points, the most in his 18-season, 19-year career. Realistically, he was robbed of 100-110+ points and likely another lengthy Cup run. Alfredsson went back to Sweden and led Frolunda HC to the SEL Championship, scoring 12 goals in 14 playoff games in the second-best league in the world.
4. Playoffs: Team Results
-Despite playing on many teams built for the playoffs with payrolls in excess of $80 million, Sundin only made the Conference finals twice, smoked by Buffalo 4-1 in 1999 and 4-2 to Carolina in 2002.
-Despite playing on many soft teams with poor goaltending who underachieved in the playoffs with payrolls under $40 million, Alfredsson led the Sens to the Conference finals twice. In the first run, losing by a goal in game 7 of the ECF. In the second run, steamrolling PIT/NJ/BUF with a 12-3 record (which could easily be 15-0 given the domination in every game), becoming the first European-born & trained captain to lead a club to the Stanley Cup. With the ill-timed 2004-05 lockout, denied another legit shot at a Cup with what most experts believe was the best team in their post-modern history.
5. Playoffs: Individual Stats
-In 18 NHL seasons, Sundin made the playoffs 10 times (55%). He scored 38 goals and 82 points.
-In 18 NHL seasons, Alfredsson made the playoffs 16 times (89%), including 11 straight years on a small-market club. He scored 51 goals and 100 points when the games mattered most, including one run with a severe MCL knee sprain, one with a sports hernia and multiple years with chronic back issues.
6. Team Sweden - Olympics
-Sundin played in 3 Olympic games over a span of 8 years in his prime, scoring 11 goals and 20 points. He captained the Gold Medal squad in 2006.
-Alfredsson played in 5 Olympic games over a span of 16 years skewed to his back nine, scoring 13 goals and 27 points. In 2006, he led Team Sweden in scoring to earn a Gold Medal. In 2014, at the age of 41, he led Sweden again to a Silver Medal on a wonky back vs an unbeatable Team Canada.
(Unfair to look at World Championships, as they are never best-on-best tourneys. Sundin played more here as a direct result of missing the playoffs 8x, many in his prime, thus this is a measure of NHL failures).
(Similarly, NHL All-Star appearances are severely flawed, as there was no game in 2005, 2006, 2010, 2013, four guaranteed years).
7. Depth of On-Ice Roles
-Sundin was a top-line forward and top-line PP forward most of his career.
-Alfredsson was a top-line forward, ran the PP from the point (where points are more sparse), and top-line penalty killer most of his career.
8. Back Nine Production & Retirement Age
-Sundin's final game in Vancouver was at 38 years, 2 months. After the 1998-99 season (age 28) he never surpassed 80 points in a season. In his final NHL season, he accepted an $8.5 million U.S. one-year contract in Vancouver, showed up out of shape, scored 9 goals, was predominantly used on the PP and was a healthy scratch in the playoffs.
-Alfredsson's final game in Detroit was at 41 years, 5 months. From the 2002-03 season (age 30) onwards, Alfredsson eclipsed the 80-point mark 4x and averaged over a point a game 6x. Live a fine wine, he improved with age. At age 33, he was the best player at the 2006 Olympic Games. In 2007, at age 34, he led the NHL in playoff scoring and led the Sens to the Stanley Cup Finals. Throughout his career, he was used on the top line of the PK. In his final season, he ran the point of the Detroit PP, averaging over 0.72 points per game, marginally below his career average of 0.93.
(*Given that the peak age for scoring production among forwards is 28, Alfredsson pushed his career over 13 years past the prime for NHL forwards, 3.5 years past a finished Sundin.)
9. Adversity
-Sundin had to deal with a media zoo for most of his career. Beyond missing 12 games with a broken orbital bone, the 6’5†Swede was durable, and never faced any significant injuries (averaged 79 games in non-lockout years). With BUF, OTT, FLA, TB, DET, WPG, EDM, CGY, VAN, etc., routinely played 60+ home games each year.
-Alfredsson had to deal with a smaller Canadian media circus. However, he had to endure significant adversity over his tenure in Ottawa including:
-a bankrupt owner withholding paycheques & monthly press conferences crying poor, threatening to fold team with a weak CDN $ (Bryden);
-multiple contract holdouts from team ‘captain’ (Ya$hin);
-shady practices of a corrupt, two-faced GM (Gauthier) led to brief personal holdout;
-seeing the departure of buddies and NHL superstars in their prime for financial reasons when the team was peaking (Hossa, Havlat, Chara,etc.);
-at 5’11â€, undersized in an increasingly big man’s NHL game;
-prime of his career played with an exceedingly defensive-minded coach (Martin) who preached defense-first play for even elite forwards;
-prima-donna PP linemate demanding trade in public and subsequently handicapping team (Heatley);
-revolving door of coaches (Bowness-Allison-Martin-Neilson-Murray-Paddock-Murray-Hartsburg-Clouston-MacLean);
-revolving door of GMs (Sexton, Gauthier, Dudley, Johnston, Muckler, Murray);
-often played through injury including recurring back flare-ups, MCL sprains, knee surgery, back surgery, broken ribs and sports hernia (likely other unpublished);
-recovery pressure given pathetic team winning % when out of lineup (sat out just one game with broken ribs);
-calls to be dealt by a large portion of the fan base after a slow start in 2006;
-cheapskate owner (Melnyk), 2007 Cup run rewarded with six years of rebuilds prior to his sudden departure to Detroit;
-played 17 seasons where he was constantly booed in his ‘home’ arena for each Toronto & Montreal game (to a lesser extent western Canada), effectively playing 50+ road games each year;
-either lowballed (his account) or ignored & assumed to be coming back (Murray’s account) in 2013 contract talks after giving several years of hometown discounts, including $1 million – barely above league minimum – in leading Sens to 2nd round.
10. Leadership & Community Service
-Sundin served as team captain in Toronto for 10 years. Provided a model of consistency for a stagnant franchise which was annually among the top NHL spenders … with mediocre results. His main charitable work was at PartyPoker.
-Alfredsson served as team captain in Ottawa for 13 years (#1 in the NHL). A soft-spoken leader who led by example on the ice. Was elected by his peers as NHLPA VP for most of his career. Spearheaded a courageous mental illness awareness campaign with the Royal Ottawa Hospital. Provided a home for many young Senators over the years, including superstar EK65 and budding #1 goalie Lehner (who later bought his home at a discount).
11. NHL Awards
-Sundin won the Messier Award in 2008. Elected to HHof in 2012, his first year of eligibility.
-Alfredsson won the Calder Rookie of the Year in 1996, the Carbonneau in 2008, the King Clancy in 2012 and Messier Award in 2013. Finalist in Lady Byng (2x), Selke & Masterton Trophies. HHoF almost a certainty.
12. Career Highlights/Legacy
-Sundin's biggest victory was Gold in 2006, with Alfredsson leading the team in scoring. He was a #1 overall pick in 1989 and largely fulfilled the hype (though not the best player in his class – #54 Lidstrom, #74 Fedorov, #221 Konstantinov?). Longest playoff run was 10 wins. Mocked for years for foolishly throwing broken stick into crowd.
-Alfredsson's biggest victory was leading the Senators to the Stanley Cup Final in 2007. Second was leading Sweden to Olympic Gold in 2006. Third either leading Olympic Silver in 2014 or one goal from Stanley Cup Final in 2003. Despite being drafted #133 overall, will go down as the best player to emerge from the 1994 NHL Draft. Mocked for years for Krusty the Clown look.
13. Post-Retirement Contribution to the NHL
-For Sundin, other than the odd NHLPA charity game, nil.
-Alfredsson TBD. (My guess would be director of European scouting or a special advisory role in Ottawa + continued civic leadership).
***
Even before adjusting for the four lost seasons from age 19-22 and not having the benefit of playing in the high-flying early 90s, Alfredsson has had the better overall career in every objective measure beyond simple regular season goal totals. But these breakdowns are too complicated for the masses to grasp.
Meanwhile, these pro-Toronto CBC/SN muppets push Sundin as a first ballot HoF, while despised enemy Alfredsson deserves no consideration.
When I asked Jeff O’Neill why Sundin is a first ballot HOF and Alfredsson deserves no consideration, after 20 seconds of MacT-like bumbling and stumbling, Sundin was a ‘superstar’ and Alfredsson was a ‘great player.’ WTF? Ottawa hate aside, how can any of these biased ‘journalists’ be taken seriously? How can networks (SN, CBC) so blatantly defraud the public with their biased pro-Toronto rhetoric?
