Why $60 million to move Atlanta to Winnipeg?

[tarheelhockey]

Or we are all just making stuff up.

 

[GKJ]

Or we are all just making stuff up.

I think we're all being a bit facetious.


What did they charge the teams in the 90s to move?

 

[PitbulI]

Or Winnipeg is being charged money that Phx has been losing. Gong show!

By going with what we saw last year when TNSE was apparently 15 minutes from owning the Coyotes. The price was 170.

This 60 million dollar relocation fee is simply the fact that the BOG need a way to keep the Coyotes in Pheonix. That 60 million goes a long way to ensure that the owner didn't actually lose money keeping them in Glendale.

It's a gong show but if TNSE doesn't mind paying, fans in Winnipeg don't mind it either and we'll be just as happy getting NHL hockey back.

 

[tarheelhockey]

What did they charge the teams in the 90s to move?

Here's what we have from the BoH information thread:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=27743834#post27743834

* Carolina - $4m <year>
* New Jersey - $8m
* Colorado - $8

A quick Google search produced a LOT of contradictory information on this topic. I found a Vanderbilt professor saying there was no fee for the Nords/Whalers/Jets moves. I found a court filing from NHL lawyers saying the Nords and Whalers did indeed pay a fee. I found another court document where the fees are blacked out. I have an HF member citing a blog comment saying the Winnipeg relo involved a fee charged "in kind".

So... um...

 

[Fugu]

It's actually 29 teams. Err...maybe 28...

Here's what we have from the BoH information thread:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=27743834#post27743834



A quick Google search produced a LOT of contradictory information on this topic. I found a Vanderbilt professor saying there was no fee for the Nords/Whalers/Jets moves. I found a court filing from NHL lawyers saying the Nords and Whalers did indeed pay a fee. I found another court document where the fees are blacked out. I have an HF member citing a blog comment saying the Winnipeg relo involved a fee charged "in kind".

So... um...

Would you go so far as to say nowhere close to $60 MM?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Would you go so far as to say nowhere close to $60 MM?

Oh no, nothing close to that. Based on general inflation and inflation within the industry, maybe something between $10-$20m at most.

Edit: But that's based on the numbers above, which I can't personally vouch for. It would be nice if the court documents from Phoenix weren't blacked out to hide the figures.

 

[Dado]

Would you go so far as to say nowhere close to $60 MM?

No problem with the $170M selling price. But I would be surprised at $60M off the top to the NHL.

$30M, not so much.

But $60M is so far and away above the $110M that ASG would net that IMO it risks another court battle, Moyes-style, for Moyes-reasons.

 

[cbcwpg]

Oh no, nothing close to that. Based on general inflation and inflation within the industry, maybe something between $10-$20m at most.

Edit: But that's based on the numbers above, which I can't personally vouch for. It would be nice if the court documents from Phoenix weren't blacked out to hide the figures.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=4453259

Two studies conducted for the NHL set a potential relocation fee of $101 million to $195 million to move the Phoenix Coyotes to Hamilton, Ontario.

The potential fees are in stark contrast to the $11.2 million to $12.9 million cited by economics professor Andrew Zimbalist in a study conducted for Canadian billionaire James Balsillie.

IMO the NHL pulls relocation fee numbers out of Gary Bettman's ____ depending upon how much they think they can soak someone for, or how much they wish to discourage relocation. There has never been a true formula.

As far as the $60M for Atlanta, its easy. The NHL is telling TNSE that if you are willing to pay $170M for PHX, then you should be willing to pay $170M for Atlanta. What we do with the difference is our business.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I'd go with Zimbalist, the guy is an expert on this stuff.

 

[jessebelanger]

So for ~10 years WINN residents have gone off about how lucrative this WINN market supposedly is - and now when a high relo fee is charged for the rights to this market, they're surprised?

If this market is lucrative, and the BOG is indeed willing to allow the relocation of an existing team into it - then we've got an open market for the NHL to charge what they can for the rights to this territory. If TNSE (or other potential owner) is willing and able to pay this fee as part of their business plan, why wouldn't the NHL maximize it?

It's not about "making up losses" - it's about maximizing the returns on your assets. Something that every business that has ever existed has attempted to do.

 

[King Woodballs]

So for ~10 years WINN residents have gone off about how lucrative this WINN market supposedly is - and now when a high relo fee is charged for the rights to this market, they're surprised?

If this market is lucrative, and the BOG is indeed willing to allow the relocation of an existing team into it - then we've got an open market for the NHL to charge what they can for the rights to this territory. If TNSE (or other potential owner) is willing and able to pay this fee as part of their business plan, why wouldn't the NHL maximize it?

It's not about "making up losses" - it's about maximizing the returns on your assets. Something that every business that has ever existed has attempted to do.

who said I was surprised at a "high" relo fee?
I am not surprised at all.

Some people on here a year ago were tossing numbers like $100mm as a possible relo fee

 

[PitbulI]

This is all from a article that's saying this is rumored. Remember, no word from the NHL or TNSE or ASG about this.

This is just the media thinking stuff up.

Until the NHL or TNSE go public with a said sale, I won't believe any of this. Bettman has crushed Winnipegs hopes years and years.

 

[Fugu]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=4453259

Two studies conducted for the NHL set a potential relocation fee of $101 million to $195 million to move the Phoenix Coyotes to Hamilton, Ontario.

The potential fees are in stark contrast to the $11.2 million to $12.9 million cited by economics professor Andrew Zimbalist in a study conducted for Canadian billionaire James Balsillie.

IMO the NHL pulls relocation fee numbers out of Gary Bettman's ____ depending upon how much they think they can soak someone for, or how much they wish to discourage relocation. There has never been a true formula.

As far as the $60M for Atlanta, its easy. The NHL is telling TNSE that if you are willing to pay $170M for PHX, then you should be willing to pay $170M for Atlanta. What we do with the difference is our business.

Well, it's not that easy. TNSE has to negotiate with ASG firstly, and then the NHL slaps its demands for relo on top of that. If that number is too high for the new market (crippling that team's options), a smart owner isn't going to pay it. It has to make sense for both sides. Does the NHL want a resolution for the team that's for sale as well? The price will still be a function of what a seller and buyer agree to as fair value for THAT market. Then there's a value that's fair for the new market. The NHL can only charge the difference, not some pie in the sky figure. Toronto is a great example where a relo fee can be so high that the total 'value' is far greater than anything anyone could justify, making the exercise moot.

So for ~10 years WINN residents have gone off about how lucrative this WINN market supposedly is - and now when a high relo fee is charged for the rights to this market, they're surprised?

Now you're exaggerating. I think viability for Wpg was only considered AFTER the cap and revenue transfers were introduced. And the CAD did have to rebound. And you had to get an arena. And you had to find an owner willing to play and pay.

If this market is lucrative, and the BOG is indeed willing to allow the relocation of an existing team into it - then we've got an open market for the NHL to charge what they can for the rights to this territory. If TNSE (or other potential owner) is willing and able to pay this fee as part of their business plan, why wouldn't the NHL maximize it?

You're going too far with 'lucrative' and 'maximizing'. I don't remember anyone saying Wpg was ultra lucrative, just ostensibly more viable than the cities where teams indeed are failing-- for whatever reason. Maximizing a return for 29 teams may also mean taking into consideration that if an owner won't carry the losses anymore, it will end up costing the league as a whole, e.g., Phoenix.

 

[Fugu]

This is all from a article that's saying this is rumored. Remember, no word from the NHL or TNSE or ASG about this.

This is just the media thinking stuff up.

Until the NHL or TNSE go public with a said sale, I won't believe any of this. Bettman has crushed Winnipegs hopes years and years.

Sunnucks, for one. Forbes then stated a price for Atl being $110 MM and then people connected their own dots for an alleged price of the Yotes to TNSE of $170 MM (which was a function of the BK price of $140 MM + annual losses).


Thread probably will get merged to the TNSE thread though, cause that's where its headed.

 

[King Woodballs]

You're going too far with 'lucrative' and 'maximizing'. I don't remember anyone saying Wpg was ultra lucrative, just ostensibly more viable than the cities where teams indeed are failing-- for whatever reason. Maximizing a return for 29 teams may also mean taking into consideration that if an owner won't carry the losses anymore, it will end up costing the league as a whole, e.g., Phoenix.

Thank you
I have been saying this for years
A team breaking even here is better for the league then one losing 25 million a year

 

[CarlWinslow]

More evidence that Gary Bettman hates Winnipeg.

 

[PitbulI]

More evidence that Gary Bettman hates Winnipeg.

Bettman wasn't brought in to stabalize a league. He was brought in to expand to non hockey markets. Winnipeg is a hockey market and thus off his radar.

 

[Fugu]

More evidence that Gary Bettman hates Winnipeg.

I disagree. I think Bettman finds any city/location irrelevant when he runs a league with 30 teams. If something goes wrong (relo needed) or expansion is needed, THEN he starts caring.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

RDS have the monopoly in french for the Habs.

I don't think that it spans to a 2nd Quebec team.

They have the monopoly in French for ALL nationally televised NHL games. That's why Peladeau wouldn't be able to offer TVA Sports outside the Quebec City market and not black out the Nord games.

My best friend has been approached by one of his work contacts for a job in the Nords marketing departement. He said that Quebec City WILL have a team in 2012-2013 and that they only reason they wouldn't have a team next season is because of the CRTC. I had already read that on Twitter multiple times, so I "trusted" him. I don't put much stock into that, but as a born and raised Nord fan, I hope it is true.

My friend is no bull****ter, but the guy who approached him could be. So take that info VERY lightly.

 

[Shameus]

The 60 million has been put out there by a few members of the local Atlanta media and a National sports writer who lives in Atlanta. That's where it is coming from.

 

[Kebekoi]

They have the monopoly in French for ALL nationally televised NHL games. That's why Peladeau wouldn't be able to offer TVA Sports outside the Quebec City market and not black out the Nord games.

My best friend has been approached by one of his work contacts for a job in the Nords marketing departement. He said that Quebec City WILL have a team in 2012-2013 and that they only reason they wouldn't have a team next season is because of the CRTC. I had already read that on Twitter multiple times, so I "trusted" him. I don't put much stock into that, but as a born and raised Nord fan, I hope it is true.

My friend is no bull****ter, but the guy who approached him could be. So take that info VERY lightly.

2011-2012 Winnipeg Thrashers
2012-2013 Quebec Coyotes (Move to 18k Colisée Vidéotron in 2015)

One could dream

 

[Fleuryoutside29]

So, pretty much the relocation fee is a fee that goes as cash split up evenly between teams. Or does the NHL itself keep the money itself, using it for team bailouts, etc?

 

[Hammer79]

Owners don't have the right to move their franchise anywhere without a relocation fee, I'm pretty sure that precedent was set in the Coyotes court case against Balsillie. The owners own a franchise, with a right to play in a certain territory. Evidently, Winnipeg's territory is worth $60M more than Atlanta's. If it isn't, TNSE walks away from the deal, right?

 

[Confucius]

Owners don't have the right to move their franchise anywhere without a relocation fee, I'm pretty sure that precedent was set in the Coyotes court case against Balsillie. The owners own a franchise, with a right to play in a certain territory. Evidently, Winnipeg's territory is worth $60M more than Atlanta's. If it isn't, TNSE walks away from the deal, right?

What a coincidence, sure glad they weren't just pulling numbers out of the pale blue pie in the sky.

 

[rojac]

This is all from a article that's saying this is rumored. Remember, no word from the NHL or TNSE or ASG about this.

This is just the media thinking stuff up.

Until the NHL or TNSE go public with a said sale, I won't believe any of this. Bettman has crushed Winnipegs hopes years and years.

I'd argue that Winnipeg has had unrealistic hopes.