Whose peak season was better, Jagr in 1998-99 or Fedorov in 1993-94

[vadim sharifijanov]

You said Fedorov didn't have the vision and the passing skills of Jagr. I demonstrated that he certainly did have those skills, because no way in hell a man without vision and playmaking abilities can make that pass to Kozlov. Unless you want to argue that Jagr could do an even more impressive pass, but then we can start getting into the "which play is more impressive" argument.

I have no idea what your picture means.

i guess i misread your response. isn't my face is red?

but in any event, i don't think anyone doubted that fedorov had excellent vision. he was amazing, which is why most of my involvement in this thread has been defending him against undue attacks. but i took "looks like great playmaking and great vision to me" to imply that i'd ever suggested otherwise, which i didn't. my point was that saying a player's vision is less than jagr, one of the supreme offensive thinkers of all time, isn't the same thing as saying that he is "without vision and playmaking abilities" (direct quote from above).

but man, even without going to youtube and finding you an even more impressive jagr highlight, we all saw how he controlled the game offensively and ran clinics in the opposition zone. in '99 he won the assist title by double digits in '99 from the wing. that's a step above, imo.

although having now read the suggestion that "vision" means not only playmaking ability but also abilities on the defensive end, i would concede that if you take both sides of the puck then yes, fedorov is at the same level as jagr. fedorov was a smart smart player. but i still don't think he could see the play offensively like jagr, or oates to name another player of that era.

vive soixante-huit, la lutte continue

 

[Killion]

I have no idea what your picture means.

Refers to the Prague Spring, Soviet invasion, reforms, the number Jagr wore throughout his career in memory, as a Salute if you will...

vive soixante-huit, la lutte continue

Yep. Literal translation = Bright 68, the struggle continues...

 

[quoipourquoi]

but man, even without going to youtube and finding you an even more impressive jagr highlight, we all saw how he controlled the game offensively and ran clinics in the opposition zone. in '99 he won the assist title by double digits in '99 from the wing. that's a step above, imo.

We're talking about the size of his leads again when he was equaled in primary assists by players with roughly 83% of the ES/PP time as him. I'd say he has better vision than Fedorov and pretty much everyone else at the time, but talking about his raw leads as if it wasn't established in this thread how much more hockey he was playing than everybody else isn't much more informative than YouTube clips.

I mean, despite appearing in 77 GP that season (to Jagr's 81 GP), Fedorov played 1328 ES/PP minutes to Jagr's 2023 ES/PP minutes. Even if Fedorov did have Jagr's vision, how is he going to compete in the Assist race with that little ice time relative to Jagr (less than 2/3 the minutes)? That wasn't even a particularly good season for Fedorov, but you at least get my point, yes?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

I have seen too many teams win consistently on the backs of two-way forwards to not significantly value their defensive play. This is one where I believe Fedorov's outstanding, Selke-winning 3-zone play, made up for the offensive gap Jagr would have over him. That's one year only, but I do believe Fedorov has a singular higher peak than Jagr.

 

[livewell68]

Remind us again what the TOI was for both players? I'm assuming it was even since you dont mention that, yet keep mentioning that it was a much lower scoring season. Wow now Jagr is easily the most over-rated player on the planet if he is being called the most dominant player of his generation, and the best puck possession player ever, which I believe you said earlier, lol....

Actually I would say 75% of the posters in the History section will call him the best player of generation and quite possibly the best puck possession player of all time.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Actually I would say 75% of the posters in the History section will call him the best player of generation and quite possibly the best puck possession player of all time.

It would sure be interesting to see a poll between Jagr, Hasek and Lidström. Three different positions right there although Hasek is born in 1965 though so i dont know what to do with that. Brodeur maybe wants in as well.

 

[Plural]

Well, Jagr is the best forward. Or greatest forward. Lidstrom is the greatest D, obviously.

Hasek is the best goalie. I consider him higher than Brodeur.

Not sure which one of these three players is the "best of their generation". Maybe I'd side with Jagr on this one too.

Also, Jagr's puck possession abilities might not be the clear cut best of all-time. But he certainly is one of the best ever. So, even if he might not be the unanimous choice for the best possession player ever, he is in the highest tier on that skill.

 

[livewell68]

Player
POS
"HHOF Monitor" PTS (1994-95/2003-04)
Jagr Jaromir RW 2831.00
Hasek Dominik G 2203.50
Lidstrom Nicklas D 1915.80
Sakic Joe C 1843.00
Brodeur Martin G 1512.50
Forsberg Peter C 1426.00
Lemieux Mario C 1269.00
Kariya Paul LW 1249.00
Selanne Teemu RW 1188.50
Naslund Markus LW 1102.00

More proof:

Quote:
This is new version of my research....

Columns:
#1 - Adj. GMS
#2 - Adj. PTS or Adj.WINS
#3 - Adj. PO GMS
#4 - Adj. PO PTS or Adj.PO WINS
#5 - Capt.
#6 - HARTS
#7 - HART Runner Up
#8 - 1 ALL STARS
#9 - 2 ALL STARS
#10 - GOAL #1
#11 - GOAL #2
#12 - PTS #1
#13 - PTS #2
#14 - NORRIS
#15 - NORRIS Runner Up
#16 - VEZINAS
#17 - VEZINA Runner Up
#18 - CONN SMYTHE
#19 - CUPS
#20 - FINALS


#-Car.-Seas.-POS-#1-#2-#3-#4-#5-#6-#7-#8-#9-#10-#11-#12-#13-#14-#15-#16-#17-#18-#19-#20 -HHOF?-"HHOF Mon. PTS"- Player
================================================== ================================================== ========================
0001-1979/1999-20-C-1544-2509-213-327-14-9-1-08-7-5-0-11-2-0-0-0-0-2-04-2-Y-7505,2-Gretzky Wayne
0002-1946/1980-26-R-2063-2114-307-316-04-6-1-12-9-5-5-06-1-0-0-0-0-1-04-7-Y-6401,0-Howe Gordie
0003-1984/2006-17-C-0927-1569-107-159-13-3-3-05-4-3-0-06-1-0-0-0-0-2-02-0-Y-4250,0-Lemieux Mario
0004-1942/1960-18-R-1254-1174-264-223-04-1-2-08-6-5-3-00-5-0-0-0-0-2-08-4-Y-4205,0-Richard Maurice
0005-1957/1980-16-L-1204-1224-200-207-00-2-2-10-2-7-2-03-3-0-0-0-0-0-01-3-Y-4138,0-Hull Bobby
0006-1979/2001-22-D-1667-1451-217-167-15-0-2-13-6-0-0-00-0-5-6-0-0-0-01-2-Y-4066,0-Bourque Ray
0007-1950/1971-20-C-1293-1339-295-314-10-2-4-06-3-2-1-01-2-0-0-0-0-2-10-3-Y-4055,5-Beliveau Jean
0008-1963/1981-18-C-1372-1501-190-169-03-2-2-06-2-6-1-05-3-0-0-0-0-0-02-3-Y-3989,0-Esposito Phil
0009-1966/1979-12-D-0701-0875-098-113-00-3-0-08-1-0-0-02-3-8-0-0-0-2-02-1-Y-3655,0-Orr Bobby
0010-1990/2006-15-R-1143-1550-149-157-03-1-4-07-1-0-4-05-2-0-0-0-0-0-02-0-F-3546,0-Jagr Jaromir

0011-1958/1980-22-C-1531-1461-252-223-02-2-1-06-3-0-3-04-1-0-0-0-0-1-01-4-Y-3402,0-Mikita Stan
0012-1926/1940-14-D-0972-0654-125-058-00-4-1-10-2-0-0-00-0-8-1-0-0-0-02-2-Y-3381,8-Shore Eddie
0013-1947/1969-20-D-1316-0652-267-145-01-0-1-10-1-0-0-00-0-8-2-0-0-0-06-5-Y-3353,2-Harvey Doug
0014-1952/1971-18-G-0967-0443-209-090-00-0-0-07-4-0-0-00-0-0-0-3-6-1-01-6-Y-3171,5-Hall Glenn
0015-1952/1973-18-G-0922-0477-209-134-00-1-0-03-4-0-0-00-0-0-0-7-1-1-06-4-Y-3089,5-Plante Jacques
0016-1947/1967-20-D-1564-0974-327-183-02-0-1-06-2-0-0-00-0-3-4-0-0-0-08-4-Y-2973,0-Kelly Red
0017-1979/2004-25-C-1809-1768-241-258-16-2-1-04-1-0-0-00-1-0-0-0-0-1-06-1-F-2826,0-Messier Mark
0018-1971/1991-17-R-1161-1165-162-149-00-2-1-06-0-1-3-03-0-0-0-0-0-1-05-0-Y-2774,5-Lafleur Guy
0019-1984/2003-19-G-1056-0561-248-152-00-0-1-04-2-0-0-00-0-0-0-3-2-3-04-1-Y-2668,5-Roy Patrick
0020-1949/1970-21-G-1069-0492-206-107-00-0-0-03-4-0-0-00-0-0-0-4-2-2-04-3-Y-2654,0-Sawchuk Terry
0021-1923/1937-14-C-1062-1114-120-085-00-3-1-05-2-1-1-02-0-0-0-0-0-1-03-1-Y-2612,0-Morenz Howie
0022-1944/1965-17-L-1327-1054-265-197-04-0-0-08-1-1-2-01-3-0-0-0-0-0-04-4-Y-2589,0-Lindsay Ted
0023-1990/2006-14-G-0665-0336-097-053-00-2-1-06-0-0-0-00-0-0-0-6-0-0-01-2-F-2585,0-Hasek Dominik
Quote:
Peak Performance (Total HHOF Monitor PTS, 3 consecutive seasons)

Player -- POS -- TEAM -- Last Seas. -- Total HHOF PTS (3 seas.)
================================================== ========
Gretzky Wayne -- C -- EDM -- 1984-85 -- 2057

Orr Bobby -- D -- BOS -- 1971-72 -- 1937,8

Lafleur Guy -- RW -- MTL -- 1977-78 -- 1727,5

Howe Gordie -- RW -- DET -- 1953-54 -- 1580
Jagr Jaromir -- RW -- PIT -- 1999-00 -- 1567,5
Esposito Phil -- C -- BOS -- 1973-74 -- 1553,5
Hasek Dominik -- G -- BUF -- 1998-99 -- 1511

Hull Bobby -- LW -- CHI -- 1965-66 -- 1464,5
Mikita Stan -- C -- CHI -- 1967-68 -- 1400
Beliveau Jean -- C -- MTL -- 1956-57 -- 1307,5

Lalonde Newsy -- C -- MTL -- 1920-21 -- 1235
Lemieux Mario -- C -- PIT -- 1988-89 -- 1225
Quote:
Best players by decade: 1990-00

Player
POS
"HHOF Monitor" PTS
Jaromir "Jags" Jagr RW 2642,00
Dominik "The Dominator" Hasek G 2151,00
Mario "Super Mario" Lemieux C 2139,50
Wayne "The Great One" Gretzky C 1637,70
Ray "Bubba" Bourque D 1633,20
Brett "The Golden Brett" Hull RW 1408,45
Teemu "The Finnish Flash" Selanne RW 1365,50
Ed "The Eagle" Belfour G 1243,00
Patrick "St Patrick" Roy G 1214,50
Steve "Stevie Wonder" Yzerman C 1213,00
Quote:
As for spilts:

1990-95 Lemieux Mario C 1214.00
1990-95 Gretzky Wayne C 1184.00
1990-95 Bourque Ray D 1147.85
1990-95 Hull Brett RW 1044.00
1990-95 Belfour Ed G 899.00
1990-95 Roy Patrick G 867.00
1990-95 Jagr Jaromir RW 780.00
1990-95 Stevens Kevin LW 755.50
1990-95 Fedorov Sergei C 716.00
1990-95 Chelios Chris D 663.90

1995-00 Jagr Jaromir RW 1862.00
1995-00 Hasek Dominik G 1538.50
1995-00 Selanne Teemu RW 994.00
1995-00 Kariya Paul LW 927.00
1995-00 Lemieux Mario C 925.50
1995-00 Lidstrom Nicklas D 890.60
1995-00 Yzerman Steve C 720.00
1995-00 Forsberg Peter C 670.50
1995-00 Leclair John LW 653.50
1995-00 Brodeur Martin G 627.00

2000-04 Sakic Joe C 1135.50
2000-04 Lidstrom Nicklas D 968.00
2000-04 Naslund Markus LW 947.50
2000-04 Iginla Jarome RW 932.50
2000-04 Brodeur Martin G 755.50
2000-04 Forsberg Peter C 655.50
2000-04 St. Louis Martin RW 625.50
2000-04 Roy Patrick G 538.50
2000-04 Jagr Jaromir RW 497.00
2000-04 Sundin Mats C 476.00

I would say the evidence is pretty compelling and for me to make the claim that Jagr was the best player of his generation, as they say "the proof is in the pudding".

 

[Pominville Knows]

That is just arbitrary fluff. I think Hasek was at least as good as Jagr between 1993-94 and 2005-06. Then both has some seasons both before and after that that could just be a wash depending on what weight one puts on international hockey, but fact is these seasons were out of their peak.

 

[Plural]

Those "HHOF monitor points" are done by pnep, right?

Crazy to see that for 5 years stretch Selanne was the third player, right after Jagr and Hasek. That didn't even include Selanne's rookie year.

But seems to me that Art Ross win gives more points than Vezina win. Is that correct? Cause it necessary shouldn't. I don't fully agree with the idea that Jagr was that much "better" than Hasek from 94/95-03/04...well at least it seems a bit weird to leave out Hasek's first Vezina from that timespan.

But, this is not about Hasek vs. Jagr. Sorry.

I still remain of the opinion that Jagr had slightly higher peak in his best year than Feds.
The difference on defense vs. offense is not as simple as some posters here try to make it out to be.

If a certain player provides elite offense, combined with one of the best puck possession games ever. I consider the season more noteworthy than just simple 10/10 & 1/10.

Also, the value of 10/10 offense is much, much more higher than 10/10 (if that in fact was the level of defensive play Feds brought?) defensive play.

Lehtinen brough 10/10 defensive game and solid 20/30+20/30 offensive game too. I have never heard anyone suggesting his defensive game to pull him near the elite offensive player in the league.

 

[Leafs87]

95-96 was Jagr's peak season...

 

[Plural]

How come? I don't think it was.

 

[Killion]

But, this is not about Hasek vs. Jagr. Sorry.

Quite correct. Lets reel it in here gang. Back on topic.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

That is just arbitrary fluff. I think Hasek was at least as good as Jagr between 1993-94 and 2005-06. Then both has some seasons both before and after that that could just be a wash depending on what weight one puts on international hockey, but fact is these seasons were out of their peak.

Yeah, unless the HHoF Monitor Points formula changed, I'm not super hyped on a metric that only approximates Hasek's S% through trophy counting and wins, while giving Jagr full credit for his points and then trophy counting some more.

Additionally, doesn't that metric just try to say who performed the best according to the biases of voters, not trying to craft a level playing field which eliminates those biases?

(I know we're moving on, I just wanted to ask that in the Jagr/Hasek thread before it got locked and never had the chance)

 

[Epsilon]

Remind us again what the TOI was for both players? I'm assuming it was even since you dont mention that, yet keep mentioning that it was a much lower scoring season.

The fallacy you are implicitly making here is that there is a always linear relationship between TOI and points.

Wow now Jagr is easily the most over-rated player on the planet if he is being called the most dominant player of his generation, and the best puck possession player ever, which I believe you said earlier, lol....

Both of those statements are very defensible.

 

[livewell68]

95-96 was Jagr's peak season...

1995-96 was his statistical peak but not his best season in the NHL.

It is almost an unanimous consensus that Jagr's best season in the NHL was 1998-99.

Funny thing is that Jagr has possibly 4 seasons (1995-96, 1998-99, 1999-00 and 2005-06) that were all as good if not better than Fedorov's 1993-94 season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yeah, unless the HHoF Monitor Points formula changed, I'm not super hyped on a metric that only approximates Hasek's S% through trophy counting and wins, while giving Jagr full credit for his points and then trophy counting some more.

Additionally, doesn't that metric just try to say who performed the best according to the biases of voters, not trying to craft a level playing field which eliminates those biases?

(I know we're moving on, I just wanted to ask that in the Jagr/Hasek thread before it got locked and never had the chance)

HHOF monitor points look at what factors predict HHOF induction and score players based on that. In other words, since the actual HHOF committee highly values points and trophies, the monitor points value them highly as well.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

HHOF monitor points look at what factors predict HHOF induction and score players based on that. In other words, since the actual HHOF committee highly values points and trophies, the monitor points value them highly as well.

Right, so I'd be correct in saying it's a poor measure of objectively judging performance, especially across positions?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Right, so I'd be correct in saying it's a poor measure of objectively judging performance, especially across positions?

You would be correct that it generally ranks forwards quite a bit higher than players at other positions. So unless you believe that most of the best players in history have been forwards, it would be a poor metric at comparing players from different positions.

It also counts accomplishments, so it will award players with a lot of longevity more than most observers would.

Here is the full list up to 2005-06: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=276125

 

[habsfanatics*]

We're talking about the size of his leads again when he was equaled in primary assists by players with roughly 83% of the ES/PP time as him. I'd say he has better vision than Fedorov and pretty much everyone else at the time, but talking about his raw leads as if it wasn't established in this thread how much more hockey he was playing than everybody else isn't much more informative than YouTube clips.

I mean, despite appearing in 77 GP that season (to Jagr's 81 GP), Fedorov played 1328 ES/PP minutes to Jagr's 2023 ES/PP minutes. Even if Fedorov did have Jagr's vision, how is he going to compete in the Assist race with that little ice time relative to Jagr (less than 2/3 the minutes)? That wasn't even a particularly good season for Fedorov, but you at least get my point, yes?

Jagr playing more minutes is not in any way a knock against Jagr. This argument is completely irrelevant imo.

 

[Big Phil]

Jagr Top 10s in Assists:

1993-94 NHL 67 (7)
1994-95 NHL 38 (7)
1995-96 NHL 87 (3)
1997-98 NHL 67 (1)
1998-99 NHL 83 (1)
1999-00 NHL 54 (3)
2000-01 NHL 69 (1)
2001-02 NHL 48 (9)
2005-06 NHL 69 (3)
2006-07 NHL 66 (5)


Fedorov Top 10s in assists:

1995-96 NHL 68 (9)

There you go. Not sure why anyone would argue Jagr was anything but a superior playmaker over Fedorov. He certainly was, and this doesn't take anything away from Fedorov either.

I remember a coach saying something similar about Andrew Cassels.

The only thing is Jagr actually proved this game in and game out on the ice. The poster that said Jagr saw the game better than anyone else not named Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux is perhaps a stretch, however, let's try to think of some more names that are clearly ahead of him. I can't think of many. I guess Beliveau would qualify and Lafleur would be just as good that way. Crosby is close. Oates is another name that pops up. But in reality, Jagr had spectacular vision of the game. We all remember his stick handling and his shot as well as his ability to hang onto the puck and not get it knocked off his body. But when you watch him play, he always had his head up, he always was watching what was going on. Jagr didn't skate with his head down.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

We're talking about the size of his leads again when he was equaled in primary assists by players with roughly 83% of the ES/PP time as him. I'd say he has better vision than Fedorov and pretty much everyone else at the time, but talking about his raw leads as if it wasn't established in this thread how much more hockey he was playing than everybody else isn't much more informative than YouTube clips.

I mean, despite appearing in 77 GP that season (to Jagr's 81 GP), Fedorov played 1328 ES/PP minutes to Jagr's 2023 ES/PP minutes. Even if Fedorov did have Jagr's vision, how is he going to compete in the Assist race with that little ice time relative to Jagr (less than 2/3 the minutes)? That wasn't even a particularly good season for Fedorov, but you at least get my point, yes?

to a point, i get it and agree that pointing to the raw lead is a lazy shorthand to point to something more meaningful. but at the same time, while i acknowledge that ES/PP icetime is a variable, and also acknowledge the further variables of team style and strength of teammates in determining both the quantity and kind of icetime a player gets, i think you're overstating the degree to which this variable complicates what the raw totals mean. and certainly also the distinction between primary/secondary assists.

again, we all saw jagr play. we all saw him running the offensive zone. he wasn't pounding pucks at the net and picking up cheap secondary assists off of rebounds of rebounds of rebounds. when jagr gave a guy the puck, he found the guy when that guy had time and space, and so his secondary assist pass put that other guy in the position of making a much easier play. the basketball analogy isn't a great one, but i think there was something of a point guard in the way jagr both ran the play on the rush (fast break) or ran a "possession" in the offensive zone (half court set). but as for the ES/PP ice time variable, what would the alternative that accounts for ice time differential be? assists-per-minute to measure playmaking ability? because even while jagr (and bure in florida) were playing monster minutes, past the normal threshold for a star forward, those become extremely difficult ES or PP minutes due to sheer volume, which mitigates the advantage the raw total of ES/PP minutes would give them.

 

[livewell68]

to a point, i get it and agree that pointing to the raw lead is a lazy shorthand to point to something more meaningful. but at the same time, while i acknowledge that ES/PP icetime is a variable, and also acknowledge the further variables of team style and strength of teammates in determining both the quantity and kind of icetime a player gets, i think you're overstating the degree to which this variable complicates what the raw totals mean. and certainly also the distinction between primary/secondary assists.

again, we all saw jagr play. we all saw him running the offensive zone. he wasn't pounding pucks at the net and picking up cheap secondary assists off of rebounds of rebounds of rebounds. when jagr gave a guy the puck, he found the guy when that guy had time and space, and so his secondary assist pass put that other guy in the position of making a much easier play. the basketball analogy isn't a great one, but i think there was something of a point guard in the way jagr both ran the play on the rush (fast break) or ran a "possession" in the offensive zone (half court set). but as for the ES/PP ice time variable, what would the alternative that accounts for ice time differential be? assists-per-minute to measure playmaking ability? because even while jagr (and bure in florida) were playing monster minutes, past the normal threshold for a star forward, those become extremely difficult ES or PP minutes due to sheer volume, which mitigates the advantage the raw total of ES/PP minutes would give them.

Everyone keeps harping on about how Jagr played so many minutes.... well for one he was able to be given those minutes and ran with it so clearly his stamina and fitness levels with at legendary levels especially with how the game was played back then.

Second of all here are the minutes per game leaders from the 1998-99 season among forwards only.

1 Jaromir Jagr PIT R 81 44 83 127 +17 66 10 1 7 2 3 343 12.8 25:51 24.0 50.0
2 Joe Sakic COL C 73 41 55 96 +23 29 12 5 6 1 0 255 16.1 25:34 29.8 51.4
3 Paul Kariya ANA L 82 39 62 101 +17 40 11 2 4 0 0 429 9.1 25:32 26.8 48.4
4 Martin Straka PIT C 80 35 48 83 +12 26 5 4 4 1 0 177 19.8 23:35 24.2 43.6
5 Peter Forsberg COL C 78 30 67 97 +27 108 9 2 7 0 0 217 13.8 23:29 28.2 54.4
6 Theo Fleury CGY, COL R 75 40 53 93 +26 86 8 3 5 2 0 301 13.3 23:20 24.3 59.1
7 Eric Lindros PHI C 71 40 53 93 +35 120 10 1 2 3 0 242 16.5 22:56 23.8 60.0
8 Teemu Selanne ANA R 75 47 60 107 +18 30 25 0 7 1 0 281 16.7 22:47 23.3 20.0
9 Mark Messier VAN C 59 13 35 48 -12 33 4 2 2 0 0 97 13.4 22:36 24.9 53.9

As you can see, both Sakic and Karyia were pretty close to Jagr in terms of minutes per game played and that season there were in total 15 forwards that averaged 22 minutes a game or more.

Sure Jagr was the leader, but then if the argument is that other players' stats would rise had they played more minutes, shouldn't then Sakic and Karyia have better numbers then, by that measure?

Jagr did average almost 19 evenstrength minutes (18:43) (almost 2 more minutes than the next nearest forward Karyia (16:49)) but Jagr also had the worst linemates of the other top 9 forwards.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Jagr playing more minutes is not in any way a knock against Jagr. This argument is completely irrelevant imo.

That would be like saying that GP is completely irrelevant to Win totals. Coaches determine minutes - not the player. One of the biggest complaints from Sergei Fedorov over the years was exactly that: He could have handled more minutes but wasn't getting them.

to a point, i get it and agree that pointing to the raw lead is a lazy shorthand to point to something more meaningful. but at the same time, while i acknowledge that ES/PP icetime is a variable, and also acknowledge the further variables of team style and strength of teammates in determining both the quantity and kind of icetime a player gets, i think you're overstating the degree to which this variable complicates what the raw totals mean. and certainly also the distinction between primary/secondary assists.

again, we all saw jagr play. we all saw him running the offensive zone. he wasn't pounding pucks at the net and picking up cheap secondary assists off of rebounds of rebounds of rebounds. when jagr gave a guy the puck, he found the guy when that guy had time and space, and so his secondary assist pass put that other guy in the position of making a much easier play. the basketball analogy isn't a great one, but i think there was something of a point guard in the way jagr both ran the play on the rush (fast break) or ran a "possession" in the offensive zone (half court set). but as for the ES/PP ice time variable, what would the alternative that accounts for ice time differential be? assists-per-minute to measure playmaking ability? because even while jagr (and bure in florida) were playing monster minutes, past the normal threshold for a star forward, those become extremely difficult ES or PP minutes due to sheer volume, which mitigates the advantage the raw total of ES/PP minutes would give them.

But what about the players who also played shorthanded hockey? And what about the players who were proficient defensively? Jagr's "monster minutes" weren't exactly as strenuous as the type we would see from a two-way player like a Fedorov or a Forsberg who had fewer ES/PP minutes but were also playing 200-foot hockey and regular penalty kill shifts. I'm not saying that Jagr at minute-25 is going to be as fast as Jagr at minute-1, but a lot of these other players were burning the candle at both ends, Fedorov in 1994 included.

In a different coaching system, Jagr doesn't get every extra minute squeezed out of him to the extent that he has those gigantic leads. Am I saying that Forsberg (1998), Selanne (1999), and Elias (2001) would have won the Art Ross had they gained an extra 279 minutes, 352 minutes, or 456 minutes as the numbers tell us? Maybe, maybe not, but it would have at least been closer than the raw lead was. And I get that there were other factors working against Jagr, but that's a lot of time to put up 11, 20, and 25 points - even if those minutes are dished out at the end of a game (and in the case of Forsberg and Elias, they were already tired from the PK for some of the ES/PP minutes they did have).

Doesn't matter if he moves up from Kip Miller to Slava Kozlov; Jagr is not going to produce 83 assists with 350 fewer minutes on the season. TOI is enough of a factor in Jagr's case to not define an argument by raw leads. And given the fact that it was specifically Jagr's secondary assists that increased far above his normal rate with his additional ES/PP ice-time in 1999, I don't believe I am overstating the effect.

Jagr's Hart Trophy is a testament to who he was playing with on the Penguins but his raw leads are a testament to how much more hockey he played than his contemporaries.

 

[quoipourquoi]

As you can see, both Sakic and Karyia were pretty close to Jagr in terms of minutes per game played and that season there were in total 15 forwards that averaged 22 minutes a game or more.

Sure Jagr was the leader, but then if the argument is that other players' stats would rise had they played more minutes, shouldn't then Sakic and Karyia have better numbers then, by that measure?

Sakic and Kariya played 3:00-3:30 on the penalty kill each night. The ES/PP numbers are in my table.

Name | Points | Minutes | TOI-Per-Point 1999 | | |
Jagr | 126 | 2023 | 16:00
Selanne | 107 | 1671 | 15:30
Kariya | 98 | 1855 | 19:00
Yashin | 93 | 1745 | 18:45
Lindros | 92 | 1519 | 16:30
Forsberg | 91 | 1676 | 18:30
LeClair | 90 | 1596 | 17:45
Sakic | 90 | 1608 | 17:45
Demitra | 89 | 1611 | 18:00
Fleury | 88 | 1569 | 17:45