Who's to blame for the Coyotes woes?

[ClassLessCoyote]

With the current record brings more and more blaming for what's happening. Who's to blame for the Coyotes woes?

Click to read more...

 

[Murf]

Players.

On paper, this should be a much better team than it is. It's not the GM's fault that the defense leaves guys wide open in front of the net. It's not the Owner's fault that our goaltending has been horrible.

Second choice would be the coaches, but I'm not ready to hang it on them yet. This is the NHL, and coaches shouldn't be required to teach the players the basics of playing hockey.

 

[RABBIT]

nobody directly, but everybody plays a part.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Players.

On paper, this should be a much better team than it is. It's not the GM's fault that the defense leaves guys wide open in front of the net. It's not the Owner's fault that our goaltending has been horrible.

Second choice would be the coaches, but I'm not ready to hang it on them yet. This is the NHL, and coaches shouldn't be required to teach the players the basics of playing hockey.

Yet several people who post here (not necessarily saying that you have the same opinion) would often state their disgust with Tippett when he said, "the NHL is not a learning league."

Sorry for bringing this up, but the exact same things that people blamed Tippett's stubbornness in not wanting to teach is exactly a reason why the coaches shouldn't take blame - b/c they shouldn't have to teach everything.

So which is it? B/c even with these teaching moments that everyone clamored for, we still don't look very effective. This is another great example of the hypocrisy and double standard that is getting applied to the staff simply because one person's last name has an 'ippet' and one has a 'ocche' between a capital 'T' and the final 't.'

And I voted for "all of the above" - I put the least blame on Chayka, b/c he actually has done everything in his power to get the types of players and player quality that is needed. I think Barroway's intentions may have been decent, but he is like a lot of the people on this forum - he saw something that was perceived as a major negative with Tippett, and acted on that. Maybe there were some justifiable things behind that, but mixed with some emotional behavior, the decision has back-fired in spectacular fashion thus far. May not be the case in the next 20 games, but again, I don't think anyone expected it to be this bad.

I think the players and coaches deserve somewhat equal blame, but ultimately, execution is bad and may be worse than it was last year. It is also our coaches jobs to put the team into position to execute effectively.

 

[cobra427]

There are multiple factors contributing to this disaster.

Chayka/Barroway

1. The decision to get rid of Smith has hurt our goal tending, letting Verby go hurt our production and he is a solid 2 way winger. We lack leadership and this could be partly to blame.
2. Letting Tip walk-Tip did more with less most seasons. He never had a far under achieving roster like the current team. A vet coach like Tip woudn't allow this disaster to happen with this roster. Experience would pay off.
3. Hiring tocc- They hired an unproven NHL head coach. This is what you get if you make a mistake.

Players

1. They have to take some of the blame. Half the roster is underperforming.
2. Goal tending has been terrible. Raanta being injured and trading Smith is the cause.

Coach

1. How can Tocc and his staff not be taking the lions share of the blame for this way under performing roster? It's the coaches job to use a system that works, motivate the players, play the right line combinations. Hockey is a team sport. This could be partly Chayka in hiring Tocc and telling him how they want to play "fast" too. We don't know if Tocc sold Chayka/Barroway on how we should play or more the other way around.

This is a combination of an inexperienced owner relying on an inexperienced GM and hiring an inexperienced head coach. The trickle down effect is in full force.

 

[KG]

Tippet fan club out in force lmao

 

[absolute garbage]

It is also our coaches jobs to put the team into position to execute effectively.

Yeah. To me it seems like Tocchet's desire to play faster and more uptempo game like he did in Pittsburgh doesn't work with Coyotes less talented and experienced personnel. It just further exposes the already worse players and leads into more and more of these breakdowns. This didn't help the goalies either, although they have been awful just in vacuum too.

Have to give honorable mention to Stepan. While not the main reason for this fiesta, still really disappointing when the team is finally supposed to get an "experienced veteran center to solidify the position and help us take the next step" and then the guy mails it in during the summer and comes in in terrible shape.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Tippet fan club out in force lmao

Do you honestly think we would have this record right now and look even worse defensively while actually scoring a similar amount of goals? We had 37 GF through 14 games last season, the same as this year. We had 49 GA last year and 61 this year.

LMAO indeed. That's pretty asinine to laugh at the people who are currently being proven as spot on with reasons why the team struggled. Keep coming up with excuses for Tocchet, though. Cause if Tocchet and his staff were doing their jobs, we wouldn't have this thread a month into the season...

 

[Prarievarg]

I still think its too early to start pointing fingers. For now I blame everybody, players, goalies, coaches, equipment staff, fans, arenas and bad luck.

And its getting ridiculous how every thread now is a defend-tippett thread.

 

[moosemeister]

I blame the lack of Emma Stone in GDTs.

 

[KG]

We would have 9th year of Tippet running his old, stale, and stiffling system and another year of finishing with overall pick of 12 but out of the playoffs.

This system and coach will pay dividends in the long run.

 

[AZviaNJ]

Other: Dave Tippett

 

[BUX7PHX]

I still think its too early to start pointing fingers. For now I blame everybody, players, goalies, coaches, equipment staff, fans, arenas and bad luck.

And its getting ridiculous how every thread now is a defend-tippett thread.

I don't even think it is necessarily a defense of Tippett. It is more how the lines have become so blurred for posters here. Look at last year's comments and compare to this year:

Last year - "Ugh, all Tippett talks about is how the players can't execute. They can't execute b/c his system neuters them."
This year - We struggle with execution - the players are poor at executing.

Last year - "Ugh - Tippett put Duclair on the bottom 6 and he is playing plugs like Jooris in place of some of our young players - he should be letting them learn in this dumpster fire of a season."
This year - Why is Tocchet putting Duclair with Rinaldo and Kempe? Matter of fact, why was Kempe recalled in place of Strome? This season is just as much of a dumpster fire as last year, so why is this considered acceptable if it wasn't acceptable last year?

Last year - "Tippett is way too stubborn to be in charge of this team. He never changes his strategy and the country club means that players don't have to worry about their jobs, cause the veterans are all going to get minutes."
This year - There are few examples of people bringing this up, but it is b/c they don't want to admit the truth - this is still a similar atmosphere to what occurred last year. When the coach says, "I don't want to be that guy that makes players bag skate, but maybe I have to do that," that is essentially a country club atmosphere - he doesn't want to be the guy who force-feeds discipline, but sometimes you have to. I would rather have a coach who randomly sits a player b/c at least the player may ask of the coach or of himself: why am I being sat? It may be that way to light a fire under the butt of a player who became stagnant or passive.

Last year - "Tippett doesn't know how to mesh the talent together to be effective."
This year - The coach shows up and then 6 games in asks where our conditioning is. Granted, that does put something on the players, but he is the one who had to get them ready for the season. If he realizes that they are not in shape, then tell them that he wanted to change up the system, but until the team proves that they have enough energy to do so, he is not going to put them in positions to where they get exposed. Yet, it seems that every game, we keep trying to push something that maybe doesn't mesh.

There are boatloads of other examples, but there comes a point where maybe a lot of people that blamed Tippett for shortcomings didn't realize that Tippett was the least of the shortcomings, since many of the problems that were present last year are also present this year, and with the exception of looking faster as a team, the problems appear to be trending worse than getting better.

 

[BUX7PHX]

We would have 9th year of Tippet running his old, stale, and stiffling system and another year of finishing with overall pick of 12 but out of the playoffs.

This system and coach will pay dividends in the long run.

Yet the system worked for three years. Plus, there have been many other elements (like my constant posts about how we had one year with a sub .500 record when we were the team that scored the first goal) that people probably gloss over b.c they don't want to recognize any positives out of Tippett's tenure.

So what I think would have happened is we would still be primarily defense first, but b/c we have added some talent to a strict structure, combined with far better positioning and understanding of where to be on the ice, we start evolving even more into the exact type of teams that we were at the beginning of the decade. Through better defense, we force turnovers and create better chances b/c we would be wasting less energy and forcing the other teams to get back and cover us. Over the span of games, we would be the fresher and less worn out team by the 10 minute part of the 3rd period. We would be the team that is focused and able to keep our leads when we scored first or took leads into the 3rd period.

That's what evolution in a system looks like. Start slow - make sure everyone is on the same page and be able to prevent goals. If the other team can't score, you will never come away with less than a point per game. Same thing happened when I was an athlete and/or coaching. Our problem is that we are getting caught up in the "we look better on offense" side, but the fact is that has a negative effect on our defense. And for the young players, that is bad - why have the Oilers, Jets, or Sabres struggled with immense young talent on offense? B/c they were piss-poor at defense, and that is the direction that we are trending.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Everyone but Hjarmalsson and Keller.

 

[TheLegend]

Yet the system worked for three years. So what I think would have happened is we would still be primarily defense first, but b/c we have added some talent to a strict structure, combined with far better positioning and understanding of where to be on the ice, we start evolving even more into the exact type of teams that we were at the beginning of the decade. Through better defense, we force turnovers and create better chances b/c we would be wasting less energy and forcing the other teams to get back and cover us. Over the span of games, we would be the fresher and less worn out team by the 10 minute part of the 3rd period. We would be the team that is focused and able to keep our leads when we scored first or took leads into the 3rd period.

That's what evolution in a system looks like. Start slow - make sure everyone is on the same page and be able to prevent goals. If the other team can't score, you will never come away with less than a point per game. Same thing happened when I was an athlete and/or coaching. Our problem is that we are getting caught up in the "we look better on offense" side, but the fact is that has a negative effect on our defense. And for the young players, that is bad - why have the Oilers, Jets, or Sabres struggled with immense young talent on offense? B/c they were piss-poor at defense, and that is the direction that we are trending.

Three years with a roster that fit his system to perfection. The next four were an abomination. Why is that??

Because we began to retool the roster and try to evolve the team to where everyone else was headed. Faster.... more offense and attack oriented like most of the other teams were doing. Because those were the teams winning Stanley Cups. Two years ago San Jose was the prototype Pacific Division team. A big..... physical..... defense forward type team and the Penguins literally owned them.

So we begin retooling the roster..... and still try to run the same defense forward unwavering system with players who aren't built for it. Rather than trying to adapt the system, Tippett tries to get the players to adapt to him and it did..... not...... work.

Don't get me wrong..... I don't hate Tippett. But there were so many times in games over the last fours years where teams would make adjustments after period one against us and we had no idea how to respond. That's a failure of the coaching staff to recognize other team's adaptations and adjusting for them.

 

[Plub]

I chose other because I'd put the majority of our issues on the defense.

 

[cobra427]

Yet the system worked for three years. Plus, there have been many other elements (like my constant posts about how we had one year with a sub .500 record when we were the team that scored the first goal) that people probably gloss over b.c they don't want to recognize any positives out of Tippett's tenure.

So what I think would have happened is we would still be primarily defense first, but b/c we have added some talent to a strict structure, combined with far better positioning and understanding of where to be on the ice, we start evolving even more into the exact type of teams that we were at the beginning of the decade. Through better defense, we force turnovers and create better chances b/c we would be wasting less energy and forcing the other teams to get back and cover us. Over the span of games, we would be the fresher and less worn out team by the 10 minute part of the 3rd period. We would be the team that is focused and able to keep our leads when we scored first or took leads into the 3rd period.

That's what evolution in a system looks like. Start slow - make sure everyone is on the same page and be able to prevent goals. If the other team can't score, you will never come away with less than a point per game. Same thing happened when I was an athlete and/or coaching. Our problem is that we are getting caught up in the "we look better on offense" side, but the fact is that has a negative effect on our defense. And for the young players, that is bad - why have the Oilers, Jets, or Sabres struggled with immense young talent on offense? B/c they were piss-poor at defense, and that is the direction that we are trending.

We would have 9th year of Tippet running his old, stale, and stiffling system and another year of finishing with overall pick of 12 but out of the playoffs.

This system and coach will pay dividends in the long run.

Seriously? How could you possibly make that claim? based on what? I hope you are right though

 

[Mosby]

Most to blame I’d say is the goaltending.

We’re 1-2-1 with an NHL goalie in net.

We’re 0-10-0 with an AHL goalie in net.

*This is not an endorsement of Mike Smith.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Three years with a roster that fit his system to perfection. The next four were an abomination. Why is that??

Because we began to retool the roster and try to evolve the team to where everyone else was headed. Faster.... more offense and attack oriented like most of the other teams were doing. Because those were the teams winning Stanley Cups. Two years ago San Jose was the prototype Pacific Division team. A big..... physical..... defense forward type team and the Penguins literally owned them.

So we begin retooling the roster..... and still try to run the same defense forward unwavering system with players who aren't built for it. Rather than trying to adapt the system, Tippett tries to get the players to adapt to him and it did..... not...... work.

Don't get me wrong..... I don't hate Tippett. But there were so many times in games over the last fours years where teams would make adjustments after period one against us and we had no idea how to respond. That's a failure of the coaching staff to recognize other team's adaptations and adjusting for them.

This almost had me speechless...

So you are saying that starting in 2012-13, we made a conscious effort to bring in speed to our team, and evolve the system that way? Which acquisition did we make that proves this, of the following players:

Dave Moss
Rob Klinkhammer
Steve Sullivan
Conor Murphy

The bolded player is the only player that emphasizes what you just said - we were building for speed and the system failed these three players. Let's be real - we were a team making bargain basement deals b/c we had a GM who scouted for good deals and not the false narrative that you just created. We'll check other years of acquisitions and new faces that actually played reasonable minutes:

13-14: Mike Ribeiro, Jeff Halpern, Tim Kennedy, Martin Erat
14-15: Sam Gagner, BJ Crombeen, Joe Vitale, Marc Arcobello, Tobias Reider

The trend that I am not seeing is necessarily one of trying to add significant speed and even then, it wasn't until 14-15. The bolded players are the ones whom I could agree with the idea of building towards playing fast. I see additions that were made b/c we had little money to offer, and we managed to make a good trade for Gagner and Reider. Ribeiro was worth it if you actually look at our free agent acquisitions over the decade. He is easily the most name recognizable player that signed from another team. I just question exactly what you are trying to imply by saying that we went up-tempo, b/c we really didn't. Maybe that is why we did have to play a defense first game. Also of interest - how many rookies did we add in that time? I see one - Murphy. We had an extreme lack of prospects to fill in the gaps. People have said how poor our talent and lack of rookies was, but it is because you are believing some sort of narrative that we started to build the team for speed.

Now if you are referring to the 15-16 and 16-17 seasons for building toward speed - sure - we played the rebuild with:
Max Domi, Anthony Duclair, Brad Richardson, Klas Dahlbeck, Niklas Grossmann, Steve Downie

First year of the rebuild, and we get a 78 point season. I will take that. Funny how Ray Whitney played this system fine. Relative to every significant offensive addition, his point totals and offensive play are far ahead of anyone. Vrbata tended to do well. 16-17, add Crouse, Dvorak, and Chychrun. Now, we simply have a team who has 3-5 additional rookies pushing players out. Was anyone truly expecting a 6-12 point jump?

Maybe we need to see this for exactly what it was and is: we either had one of two problems - a severe lack of talent or a lot of youth that still needs to learn the game as professionals. The latter is where we are at now, and for the most part, the lack of talent killed us for 3 or 4 years. There are going to be ups and downs, but it is funny how people are saying, "patience" right now, yet isn't playing Jooris and Holland in place of players who need time exercising exactly that?

That's why I have been saying, sure there are some deficiencies to Tippett, the same way there are deficiencies to Tocchet. But at a time when we have the best talent collection and everything that could be viewed as a positive (coach who wants to go up-tempo, adding quality veterans to assist with the process, getting rid of someone who was termed as a hindrance to the youth in Tippett), does it not seem really odd that this has been an even bigger setback than expected? I truly hope that this gets turned around soon, but something on the players and coaching isn't working. They have been given rope and they still can't execute effectively. Maybe the short leash actually worked better than people realized...

 

[cobra427]

Most to blame I’d say is the goaltending.

We’re 1-2-1 with an NHL goalie in net.

We’re 0-10-0 with an AHL goalie in net.

*This is not an endorsement of Mike Smith.

I kind of agree but the goalie is also an easy scape goat. Playing a D first system would help shield our weak goal tending and have gotten a few wins along the way. Remember how bad Duby was in Edmonton with their offense only system. He came here and played way better than on the Minni. Turns out he wasn't a bad goalie after all, just in front of a bad team. We might have more of the same thing here.

 

[Sinurgy]

Everyone but Hjarmalsson and Keller.

I'd add Domi to that list. His lack of finish has been frustrating but he's extremely noticeable on the ice and in a good way (except that foolish penalty).

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I was just going to ignore this thread because it promised to devolve into the same tired entrenched arguments. And it has.

But if anyone thinks that this team would be a winning one right now with Tippett, Smith, and Vrbata still around, you're fooling yourselves.

 

[BUX7PHX]

I was just going to ignore this thread because it promised to devolve into the same tired entrenched arguments. And it has.

But if anyone thinks that this team would be a winning one right now with Tippett, Smith, and Vrbata still around, you're fooling yourselves.

Not a winning one, but we wouldn't have only 3 points to show on the season, either, in my opinion.

 

[cobra427]

This almost had me speechless...

So you are saying that starting in 2012-13, we made a conscious effort to bring in speed to our team, and evolve the system that way? Which acquisition did we make that proves this, of the following players:

Dave Moss
Rob Klinkhammer
Steve Sullivan
Conor Murphy

The bolded player is the only player that emphasizes what you just said - we were building for speed and the system failed these three players. Let's be real - we were a team making bargain basement deals b/c we had a GM who scouted for good deals and not the false narrative that you just created. We'll check other years of acquisitions and new faces:

13-14: Mike Ribeiro, Jeff Halpern, Tim Kennedy, Martin Erat
14-15: Sam Gagner, BJ Crombeen, Joe Vitale, Marc Arcobello, Tobias Reider

The trend that I am not seeing is necessarily one of trying to add significant speed and even then, it wasn't until 140-15. The bolded players are the ones whom I could agree with the idea of building towards playing fast. I see additions that were made b/c we had little money to offer, and we managed to make a good trade for Gagner and Reider. Ribeiro was worth it if you actually look at our free agent acquisitions over the decade. He is easily the most name recognizable player that signed from another team. I just question exactly what you are trying to imply by saying that we went up-tempo, b/c we really didn't. Maybe that is why we did have to play a defense first game. Also of interest - how many rookies did we add in that time? I see one - Murphy. We had an extreme lack of prospects to fill in the gaps. People have said this already, but it is because you are believing some sort of narrative that we started to build the team for speed.

Now if you are referring to the 15-16 and 16-17 seasons for building toward speed - sure - we played the rebuild with:
Max Domi, Anthony Duclair, Brad Richardson, Klas Dahlbeck, Niklas Grossmann, Steve Downie

Funny how Ray Whitney played this system fine. Relative to every significant offensive addition, his point totals and offensive play are far ahead of anyone. Vrbata tended to do well.

Maybe we need to see this for exactly what it was and is: we either had one of two problems - a severe lack of talent or a lot of youth that still needs to learn the game as professionals. The latter is where we are at now, an for the most part, the lack of talent killed us. There are going to be ups and downs, but it is funny how people are saying, "patience" right now, yet isn't playing Jooris and Holland in place of players who need time exercising exactly that?

That's why I have been saying, sure there are some deficiencies to Tippett, the same way there are deficiencies to Tocchet. But at a time when we have the best talent collection and everything that could be viewed as a positive (coach who wants to go up-tempo, adding quality veterans to assist with the process, getting rid of someone who was termed as a hindrance to the youth in Tippett), does it not seem really odd that this has been an even bigger setback than expected. I truly hope that this gets turned around soon, but something on the players isn't working. They have been given rope and they still can't execute effectively. Maybe the short leash actually worked better than people realized...

I was just going to ignore this thread because it promised to devolve into the same tired entrenched arguments. And it has.

But if anyone thinks that this team would be a winning one right now with Tippett, Smith, and Vrbata still around, you're fooling yourselves.

I do and I am pretty sure of it. Verby's 10 points in 12 games and Smiths .936 save percentage would make us a winning team, especially if we had Tip coaching. Tip wouldn't be playing helter skelter hockey. How you guys can't see this is stunning.